The Instigator
imabench
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Oromagi
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The US should tell Russia that Edward Snowden is Gay so that Russia will arrest+deport him

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
imabench
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/27/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,624 times Debate No: 37091
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

imabench

Pro

Pretty straight forward, first round acceptance only
Oromagi

Con

I'll accept and look forward to your argument. When favorite debaters are discussed in forums, I see your handle is often mentioned and your debate win numbers are certainly formidable. Thanks for offering me an opportunity to get my butt whipped.
Debate Round No. 1
imabench

Pro

"Your debate win numbers are certainly formidable."

Dont be intimidated, I'm pretty sure 80% of my wins are due to the other side simply forfeiting :P

Now then on to the actual debate, reasons why the US should tell Russia that Edward Snowden is Gay so that the Russians will arrest+deport him back to the US

1) Russia currently hates gays more then anything else

Next to not having enough Vodka to make it through breakfast, the one thing that Russia hates more then anything else as of right now, is Gay people. Gays are getting arrested for peacefully protesting, people are being fired for being gay at an extraordinary rate, and the Russian government passed a law UNANIMOUSLY that bans people from telling children that gay people even exist.... Russia hates Gays about as much as the US hates Miley Cyrus right now, meaning that if they were to be told that Snowden was immensely gay, they would arrest him, silence him, and/or deport him back to the United States without even checking to see if such a claim is true.

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com...




2) Its the easiest way to get him back

Lesbian-est, the US doesnt have many options for getting Snowden back at this point..... He has succeeded in gaining asylum in Russia which means he is no longer sleeping in a bathroom in Moscow International Airport, and his actual location is once again anyones guess. There isnt anything the US can do to try to get Snowden back without coming dangerously close to provoking war or crippling already strained relations with Russia, but telling Russia that he is gay and letting nature take its course is the easiest way to get Russia to silence Snowden or deport his gay a** back to the US.




3) Snowden kinda does look like a gay guy.

I mean a pasty white guy who wears glasses, has a thing for traveling to exotic places and go on adventures, and actually voted for Ron Paul in 2008? Sounds pretty f***ing gay to me..... The fact that when he went to fight in Iraq he broke both his legs in training camp also implies that he is frail as f***, which only adds to his complexion as a scrawny pale little gay dude.

The point is, its not that hard to sell the idea that Snowden is playing for the other team to somebody.
Oromagi

Con

Nice plan, Pro, but it'll never work

As Pro said in round 1, the debate's title is pretty self explanatory. Nevertheless, thanks for laying it out in more detail. Let's take on your last argument first.

Pro: Snowden kinda does look like a gay guy

Con: Uh, what?

I don't know which decade Pro is living in but this is what gay guys look like in the 21st century.
http://www.debate.org...



And here's our friend Ed:
http://www.debate.org...

Not really a match. The stereotype of the scrawny, pale, weak gay man may still have some currency amongst certain insulated segments of straight, male culture but the gay men that most people interact with are body-obsessed gym rats. Go to your local tanning salon this weekend, count the percentage of guys with $60 haircuts, and then come back and tell us what a gay guy looks like.

Here's more Ed:


http://www.debate.org...
Notice a theme developing? Edward Snowden always wears grey. How many gay men do you know that only wear grey? Oh, right you don't know any gay men. And a grey Hawaiian shirt? Girlfriend, no.

In short, only a straight guy would think Snowden looks gay, which bring me to my 2nd point.

Pro: Russia currently hates gays more then anything else

Con: That's because Russia is gay as f*ck

Russia inherited much of its culture from Byzantium which in turn inherited culture from Rome, to a sufficient extent that Russian kings were called Ceasar (czar) right up until the revolution. Like those cultures, medievel and rennaisance Russia defined homosexuality very differently than the rest of Europe and open homosexuality was common.

"Foriegn visitors to Muscovite Russia in the 16th and 17th centuries repeatedly express their amazement at the open displays of homosexual affection among men of every class. Sigismund von Heberstein, Adam Olearius, Juraj Krizhanich, and George Turberville all write about the prevalence of homosexuality in Russia in their travel and memoir literature. The 19th century historian Sergei Soloviev writes that "nowhere, either in the Orient or in the West, was this vile, unnatural sin taken as lightly as in Russia." [1]

The earliest anti-gay legislation was brought about by Peter the Great in an effort to appear more European. Although there was more legislation in the 19th century, homosexuality was far more tolerated than in America or England. The early days of the Russian Revolution were notably tolerant of gays, but the rise of Stalin put progressive views to a halt. Even so, Russia was a decade ahead of the U.S. in decriminalizing homosexuality and gays in the military. To put it succinctly, Russia is gayer than the U.S. Even more succinctly, Russia is gay as f*ck.

National Drink? Vodka. (If you don't think vodka is necessarily a gay drink, check out the advertisers on RuPaul's Drag Race- vodka, vodka, blueberry vodka, vodka)

National art? Faberge eggs

National theatre? Bolshoi Ballet (gay)

National Music? Tchaikovsky (gay)

National Sports Figures? Gymnasts and ice skaters (so gay)

Greatest Russian film director?
Eisenstein (gay)

Russian National symbol?
The bear. Here is Putin making out with one:
http://www.debate.org...


Favorite Russian pastime?
A massage at the baths (uh huh).

Here are two typical Russian men
http://www.debate.org...


The current backlash against gays in Russia is best understood not as rejection of Western permissiveness, but as a fear that Russia might already be perceived as "too gay" by the rest of the world.

Where am I going with this? Since Russia is pretty gay, and nobody recognizes LGBT quite like other LGBT, nobody in Russia is going to fall for Pro's little plan.

Obama:past! Vladimir. Just by the way, that Snowden guy is totally gay.
Putin:fffft! Yeah, right.

Besides which, when was the last time Russia believed something just because the U.S. said it was so? (Answer: Cuban Missile Crisis)

Pro: Its the easiest way to get him back

Con: We don't want him back. In fact, we should not give a sh*t about Snowden

Frankly, I've never understood all the hub-bub about this guy.

Some people make him out to be a hero and a patriot. But heroes are willing to suffer the consequences of their actions (Daniel Ellsberg, for example, was tried twice for espionage), and patriots choose to stay in their country.

Some people make Snowden out to be a traitor. But what did he really do? He was a Systems Administrator at a remote site, he wasn't an analyst or a decision maker. He had a generic top secret access, the same as 4.9 million other Americans (one out of ever 63) [2]. In other words, the U.S. never considered the existence of NSA programs like PRISM much of a secret. In fact, the U.S. shared its findings with friendly countries like Israel and the UK. The question is not "what was revealed," the question is, "yeah,so?"

Mother Jones suggests that Snowden blew the whistle on 5 shocking govt secrets

1. The US is bugging EU buildings and has 38 Diplomatic "targets."

All diplomats are spies to some extent, and all diplomats are spied upon. Wikileaks revealed in 2010 that Hillary Clinton ordered increased spying on the UN including Work schedules, email addresses, fax numbers, website identifiers, mobile numbers, DNA, iris scans, fingerprints, as well as credit card and frequent flier numbers. She sent the order out to every US embassy with top secret clearance. [3]

2. The NSA is targeting nearly 120,000 internet users.

When the Obama administration reveals aggregate numbers later this month, Snowden's number is going to look paltry.

3. The NSA receives live notifications when surveillance targets use email and chat.

Well, we've known since 2008 that the NSA was transcribing live phone conversations, so how would chat be different except that the transcription is already done for the NSA? [4]

4. The FBI is collecting user information via government equipment installed at tech companies.

We've known this is true since Qwest's refusal to participate in 2006 (and subsequent prosecution of its CEO for tax fraud). [5]

5. The NSA stores 1 billion cellphone calls daily.

And here's USA Today reporting the same fact 7 years ago. [6] [7]

At the end of the day, all Edward Snowden did was grab a bullhorn and shouted out stuff that everybody knew. Or at least we had no reason not to know, since everything he revealed was in the public domain. We believed his hype, but that doesn't make him extraordinary.

If the US were to run after Snowden, or extradite him, or even make up a story about how gay he is, we'd only lend credence to his hype. The best policy to pursue is to act like Snowden did nothing special, because he did nothing special. He yelled some silly sh*t, ran away, and hid. Let him stay hid for all we care.

In closing, here is a picture of Putin in his underwear, playing ping ping with other men in their underwear
http://www.debate.org...


[1] http://community.middlebury.edu...

[2]
http://www.thetakeaway.org...

[3]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

[4]
http://www.cnn.com...

[5]
http://www.nytimes.com...

[6]
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com...

[7]
http://m.motherjones.com...
Debate Round No. 2
imabench

Pro

Did you seriously use like 12 sources in one round for a troll debate?.... F*cking hell, whatever.


" The stereotype of the scrawny, pale, weak gay man may still have some currency amongst certain insulated segments of straight, male culture but the gay men that most people interact with are body-obsessed gym rats"

While its true that Snowden doesnt completely match with what a gay guy looks like, con forgets that Snowden doesnt know that hes gay, and that not knowing your gay yet is VERY different then being gay and knowing it.... What do people who dont know their in the closet look and dress like?

They look like scrawny white dudes who wear grey Hawaiian shirts....




"To put it succinctly, Russia is gayer than the U.S. Even more succinctly, Russia is gay as f*ck. "

While I agree with you and Ronald Reagan that Russia is indeed "gay as f*ck", that doesnt mean they would let Snowden stay in Russia if they were told that he was gay..... And thats because governments are massive hypocrites (just ask any anarchist on here)

Just because Russia is pretty freaking gay, that doesnt mean they would condone acts of gayness at their front door...... I know this because I went to Neil Patrick Harris's house at 3 in the morning and buttf*cked another guy right there on his front lawn, and he was NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT AT ALL.




"National Drink? Vodka."

I think everyone agrees that Mojitos are the gayest drink there is...... Next to Cherry Coke





"when was the last time Russia believed something just because the U.S. said it was so?"

Do you know how much weird sh*t happens in Russia exactly? So much crazy sh*t happens there that it makes everything we see as crazy seem normal to them. If the US told Russia that Snowden was gay, that to them seems normal since Vladimir over there just drove his tank to work, and he works as a f***ing mailman! They have such a crazy country that they have a much looser idea of what is normal and believable, and nobody questions things that sound perfectly normal.....




"I've never understood all the hub-bub about this guy. "

He orchestrated the single biggest leak of government intelligence in history, it was 3 times the size of the infamous 'Pentagon Papers' that revealed that the US was also at war with Laos and Cambodia in addition to Vietnam....





"At the end of the day, all Edward Snowden did was grab a bullhorn and shouted out stuff that everybody knew"

You know very well that people dont read newspapers anymore. A lot of what Snowden blew the horn on was stuff that people really didnt know even though there were previous stories and evidence that revealed the same thing.

Besides, the debate isnt whether or not the US should be going after Snowden, its pretty clear that theyve made up their minds about trying to silence him, and once the US makes up its mind about something no amount of reasoning in the world could deter them from going through with what they want to do (see Iraq War for evidence). The debate is what is the best way for the US to try to get Snowden back from the Russians, and the answer clearly is to tell them that Snowden is gay so that they will deport Snowden back to the US

====================================================================================

In conclusion, the US should tell Russia that Snowden is gay so that they will silence/deport him back to the US because as explained above:

1) He has gay qualities about him so one could be convinced he is indeed gay
2) Russia really doesnt like gays at the moment and has spassed laws forbiding the acknowledgement of their existence to children
3) The US definitely wants Snowden back and this is clearly the easiest way to try to get him back since all other options risk sparking a war or souring relations with Russia.
Oromagi

Con

Pro:
Did you seriously use like 12 sources in one round for a troll debate?

Con:
Did you seriously just cry foul in a troll debate? Doesn't that sort of miss the point?

Pro:
While its true that Snowden doesnt completely match with what a gay guy looks like, con forgets that Snowden doesnt know that hes gay, and that not knowing your gay yet is VERY different then being gay and knowing it.... What do people who dont know their in the closet look and dress like?

Con:
The same. That's why everybody else know's they're gay before they do. Just because Taylor Lautner doesn't know he's gay yet doesn't mean he's wearing beige until he figures it out.

Pro:
I went to Neil Patrick Harris's house at 3 in the morning and buttf*cked another guy right there on his front lawn, and he was NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT AT ALL.

Con:
That's odd. When I buttf*cked a guy on NPH's lawn, he jumped right in for some Chinese handcuffs action....maybe it's just you?

Pro:
I think everyone agrees that Mojitos are the gayest drink there is...... Next to Cherry Coke

Con:
As Neil and I were toweling off beside the pool, I asked him for a top ten list of homobeverages. Here's his list:

1)Boysenberry Cosmopolitan
2)Fuzzy Navel
3) Fresca
4)Blueberry Vodka
5)Jello shot sampler arranged in a rainbow
6)Non-fat, half-caff, triple grande, quarter-sweet, sugar-free, vanilla, extra hot, extra foamy caramel macchiato
7) Sperm
8) Turquoise Margarita
9) Fiji Bottled Water
10) Strawberry Smoothie

As you can see, mojito did not even make Neil's top ten.

Pro:
If the US told Russia that Snowden was gay, that to them seems normal since Vladimir over there just drove his tank to work, and he works as a f***ing mailman!

Con:
Um, okay...what?

Pro:
He orchestrated the single biggest leak of government intelligence in history

Con:
No, no he didn't. You can complain about my citing sources, but the evidence was used to establish that Snowden did nothing extraordinary. If you are going to state that Snowden's leak was bigger than, say, giving the atomic bomb to Russia like Fuchs and the Rosenbergs did, I think you're going to have to back it up with at least one fact.

Pro:
You know very well that people dont read newspapers anymore. A lot of what Snowden blew the horn on was stuff that people really didnt know even though there were previous stories and evidence that revealed the same thing.

Con:
So, if you told your girlfriend that you planned to cheat on her, and she said she didn't care, does she still have grounds for complaint when she catches you in another woman's bed a few months later? No

When the govt tells us something is true, it doesn't make the news because govt is boring. But when the news pretends to have uncovered the truth, that's exciting. Nevertheless, the record shows that Snowden revealed nothing extraordinary.

Pro:
Besides, the debate isnt whether or not the US should be going after Snowden

Con:
Well, you're the one who wants him back. My argument is that any action the govt takes against Snowden only makes him look more credible.

In conclusion, nobody's ever going to believe a beige dweeb like Snowden is secretly gay. Certainly not the Russians, who are wise in the ways of gaydar, because they are super -duper gay themselves.

The trick here is to not fall for the hype. In spite of all the hue and cry, nobody has established that Snowden revealed any significant government secrets. What did he say that we didn't already know? The answer is nothing new, and nothing should be our response to Snowden's snow job. Any action we take against Snowden empowers his and his admirers' delusions of grandeur.

Thanks for the debate and please vote Con!
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Ragnar 4 years ago
Ragnar
PRO: This is the 450th debate for pro, wow!

CON: R2 "The photo for which you are looking does not exist or Oromagi has made it private." please set your photo album to not private, so that your pictures can be admitted into evidence.
Posted by JustinAMoffatt 4 years ago
JustinAMoffatt
Lol. I'll admit, this made me chuckle.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 4 years ago
Ragnar
imabenchOromagiTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Delayed this as long as I possibly could to let con fix his sources... First of all it is a brilliant resolution, which would solve so many of our diplomatic problems with them (regardless of if they give him back or merely ship him to a gulag). Doing this a little out of order... SOURCES (tied): This is me trying to be fair, the use of broken links creates an instant bias on sources, thus I'm withholding any vote on it. CONDUCT (tied): I agree with con, about being a troll in a troll debate being something of the point. ARGUMENT (pro): A lot of this debate went way off topic, con made a case that we should not care about the guy, which does not refute that we do seem to care and have invested too much. Pro's plan remains a cheaper alternative, with less potential political backlash... Besides, Snowden not knowing he's gay, is only more ammunition that he's really gay; which makes him denying it just prove the claims against him (thus back to us, or to the gulag).