The Instigator
kohai
Con (against)
Winning
15 Points
The Contender
BennyW
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points

The USA was founded upon Christianity.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
kohai
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/23/2011 Category: Politics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,826 times Debate No: 16644
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (21)
Votes (6)

 

kohai

Con

Christianity was NOT founded upon Christianity

In this debate, I will attempt to show that the USA was NOT founded upon Christianity. Many Christian activist claim that the US was founded on the truths of the Bible. I say, NOT TRUE!

Rules
1) both parties have BOP.
2) Must show good conduct.
3) Opponent must be knowledgeable about US History.

Opening arguments

Contention 1: The Constitution

The constitution serves as the law for the government. Nowhere in the constitution does it appeal to any religion. It creates a secular government. The US government derives “From the people” not God. In fact, it separates the church from the state! The state has no business being in the church and the church has no business running our nation! (1)


Contention 2: Treaty of Tripoli
John Adams, our second president, wrote the Treaty of Tripoli. This is a quote from Article 11

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussel men; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." (Bold text added for emphasis.) (Same as source 1)

This can’t get any clearer. The treaty was written by the second president, a founding father, and CLEARLY stated that the government of the USA is NOT founded on the Christian religion.


Contention 3: Quotes from Thomas Jefferson—author of the constitution

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
- to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."
- to Carey, 1816 (2)

Does this sound like a Christian, God-fearing person? If so, then why did he leave out God in the constitution? Also, why did he make some of those quotes that would astound Christians today?

Furthermore, if he believed those quotes, why would he write the constitution based on Christianity?

BennyW

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for starting this debate on a topic that is often hotly contested.

Often times, to support the idea that the United States was founded on secular principals, the fact that Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and several others were Deists and Freemasons is brought up. While this is true, it is hardly the full picture. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence so what he says is of some importance, however others did have input as well.

In the Declaration, it asserts that we are granted our rights by our creator. Although Jefferson was a deist, this line suggests that the belief in a creator God is essential to understanding the origin of our basic rights.
We do have freedom of religion as the founders did not intend it to be a theocracy, but that doesn't negate the fact that we were founded on Christian principals. In fact the founders promoted Christian beliefs. Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin did have deistic tendies, they also promoted ideas that they had learned from Christianity. So even though Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferspn had doubts, they still promoted the ideas of Christianity publicly. [1] Yes according to the treaty of Tripoli the US was not founded as a Christian Nation, but that was Adams' opinion. Adams also believed he should have a title of nobility, which pretty much everyone else strongly opposed.

Next my opponent makes a common but damaging mistake
"Thomas Jefferson—author of the constitution", that is not true, he in fact wrote the Declaration, not the Constitution.

James Madison was the primary author of the Constitution, and himself an Episcopalian, had a cousin who was a member of the clergy who was also name James Madison. [2] At that time freedom of religion meant allowing people to have beliefs different than the church of England if they desired.
People will also often claim that the 1st Amendment grants us "separation of church and state". The meaning is often misrepresented. First of all no such phrase appears in the 1st Amendment. Where people get this idea is from the establishment clause wich states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". However if you keep going it goes on to say "or prohibit the free exercise thereof". The establishment clause is referring to the Government staying out of the Church's business and the church not being allowed to create a state religion. It does not mean that churches are not allowed to speak on political matters as the IRS now claims. In fact in early America it was the clergy who promoted the political beliefs. The IRS's current policy infringes on a church's right to freely exercise their religious beliefs. The truth is that almost half the signers of the Constitution were members of the clergy. [3] In those days being a patriot and being religious went hand in hand. George Washington said, "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." So clearly Washington felt that the US was fundamentally Christian and people say Washington was the father of the country so then his view would also be very important in determining what principals the US was founded on.

When we are children we are taught the story of the pilgrims. What is a pilgrim but a religious journeyer? They wanted to practice their Christian faith apart from the Church of England. So from the very begining there was religious freedom, but they also didn't tolerate pagan beliefs such as many of the native American religions.

All that being said; the Constitution does guarantee freedom of religion but even that has limits. We are not allowed to perform human sacrifice for religious reasons. In fact even though the federal government could not interfere with what religion an individual believed, there were state religions and it each state's Constitution could determine what religion and what affect it had on the state. [4]

I await my opponent's rebuttal and response.

1 http://www.torenewamerica.com...
2 http://research.history.org...
3 http://www.cwfa.org...
4 http://www.loc.gov...
Debate Round No. 1
kohai

Con

I thank my opponent for his responses and his timely reply. I wish him the very best of luck as we debate.

Often times, to support the idea that the United States was founded on secular principals, the fact that Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and several others were Deists and Freemasons is brought up... however others did have input as well. (I won't copy and pace a huge portion of each argument to conserve space.)

No need to discuss further.

In the Declaration, it asserts that we are granted our rights by our creator. Although Jefferson was a deist, this line suggests that the belief in a creator God is essential to understanding the origin of our basic rights.

Correct. However, this does not make our nation a "Christian" nation. Nor does it prove that we were founded upon Christianity. The DoI is NOT the government's law. The constitution is.

The DoI came BEFORE the establishment of the law of our country. Furthermore, it says "Governments are instituted among men", NOT Christianity.

This argument is weak proof of a foundation upon the Christian religion.

My opponent also makes the claim that I mis-interpreted the "Separation of Church & State"

Thomas Jefferson made his interpretation of the 1st Admendment on January 1, 1802. The letter of the Danbury Baptist Association stated that it was a "[w]all of separation between church and state." Madison also wrote "Strongly guarded...is the separation between religion and the government in the constitution of the US." (1)

James Madison was the primary author of the Constitution, and himself an Episcopalian, had a cousin who was a member of the clergy who was also name James Madison. At that time freedom of religion meant allowing people to have beliefs different than the church of England if they desired.

There were numerous authors. Not just James Madison. My opponent also assirts that the freedom of religion just applied to Christianity. However, this is not true.

When we are children we are taught the story of the pilgrims. What is a pilgrim but a religious journeyer? They wanted to practice their Christian faith apart from the Church of England. So from the very begining there was religious freedom, but they also didn't tolerate pagan beliefs such as many of the native American religions.

My opponent assirts taht the pilgrims came to America to be able to worship as they interprite the Bible. This is true. But my opponent makes a FATAL mistake.

1) The pilgrims first came to America more than 100 years before the Constitution became law. Therefore, they had NO PART in the constitution.

Final Questions.

1) Why does the Constitution not mention God--not even 1 time?
2) The Constitution is the basis of our government. Why does it create a secular nation?

All that being said; the Constitution does guarantee freedom of religion but even that has limits. We are not allowed to perform human sacrifice for religious reasons. In fact even though the federal government could not interfere with what religion an individual believed, there were state religions and it each state's Constitution could determine what religion and what affect it had on the state.

My opponent assirts that the Constitution limits the Freedom of Religion. After all, we can't perform human sacrifices. This is correct. Freedom of Religion means that we can worship God as we see fit as long as it does not contradict another law (i.e. murder) and violate rights.

Source
1. http://www.nobeliefs.com...
BennyW

Pro

I thank my opponent for responding so quickly and would like to address some of his points.

"The DoI is NOT the government's law. The constitution is." Agreed and I was considering mentioning that in the last round but it was my opponent who brought up Jefferson and his beliefs.

"There were numerous authors. Not just James Madison." True but he was the primary one and I also brought up the fact that about half the signers were members of the clergy.

"The pilgrims first came to America more than 100 years before the Constitution became law." This is true but my opponent never specified that the Constitution was the sole source we would be looking at; the pilgrims had an influence on setting up some of the colonies that became the states. Now that my opponent has made it clear that the Constitution is the only thing we are looking at I will focus primarily on that but although it is the document that establishes our current Government on the federal level, it is not the only element to the founding of the USA.

"Why does the Constitution not mention God--not even 1 time?" There are several reasons for this, one is that it is a semantic style, inspired by the articles of Confederacy and it was implied that our rights came from God. Another reason is that the intent like everything in the Constitution is for the states to elaborate. Also, even though there is no direct reference to God in the national constitution, most state Constitutions have a reference to God in their preamble. [1]

"The Constitution is the basis of our government. Why does it create a secular nation?" If it were creating a secular nation then the free exercise clause would not read "or prohibit the free exercise thereof". The Bill of rights take their cue from the ten commandments. The worship of God is not mandated but not forbidden either. In fact the supreme court of Florida in 1950 concluded, "Different species of democracy have existed for more than 2,000 years, but democracy as we know it has never existed among the unchurched."

"Freedom of Religion means that we can worship God as we see fit as long as it does not contradict another law (i.e. murder) and violate rights." Agreed, which means certain religious practices are to be opposed. Christianity gives a good basis for what is acceptable or not.

I thank my opponent for his response and look forward to the next round.

1 http://www.freerepublic.com...
Debate Round No. 2
kohai

Con

I thank my opponent for his quick reply. Good luck as we advance in the final 2 rounds. My opponent has shown tremendous conduct, which I thank him for.

"There were numerous authors. Not just James Madison." True but he was the primary one and I also brought up the fact that about half the signers were members of the clergy.

true. But the other half were not. Furthermore, the other half were mostly Deists.

"Why does the Constitution not mention God--not even 1 time?" There are several reasons for this, one is that it is a semantic style, inspired by the articles of Confederacy and it was implied that our rights came from God. Another reason is that the intent like everything in the Constitution is for the states to elaborate. Also, even though there is no direct reference to God in the national constitution, most state Constitutions have a reference to God in their preamble.

Refutation of reason1: Which God? Remember, George Washington and Jefferson along with most of our founding fathers were Deists!
Refutation of reason 2: The constitution still serves as the law of the FEDERAL governenment. Remember, this debate is referencing to the FEDERAL government.

"The Constitution is the basis of our government. Why does it create a secular nation?" If it were creating a secular nation then the free exercise clause would not read "or prohibit the free exercise thereof". The Bill of rights take their cue from the ten commandments. The worship of God is not mandated but not forbidden either. In fact the supreme court of Florida in 1950 concluded, "Different species of democracy have existed for more than 2,000 years, but democracy as we know it has never existed among the unchurched."

"[T]he prohibit of free exercise thereof..." is referring to the fact that the government cannot make laws that would prohibit or disable a certain religion to practice their beliefs.

"The Bill of rights take their cue from the 10 commandments." Huh? The 10 commandments in Exodus 34 CLEARLY states "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (1) (YHWH)." Clearly this is not taken from the 10 commandments, otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to worship other gods!

Christianity gives a good basis for what is acceptable or not.

Have you even read the Bible? I highly doubt it if you are saying that. Of course, this is not that type of debate so if you want me to quote some evil bible verses, we can in another debate.

Back to you, pro.
Source

1. http://www.biblegateway.com...;(verse 14)
BennyW

Pro

I thank my opponent for yet another great round of debates.

My opponent stated "true. But the other half were not. Furthermore, the other half were mostly Deists."
If that were true then you would still only be half right,

"Which God? Remember, George Washington and Jefferson along with most of our founding fathers were Deists!"
While that was true of Jefferson, if you recall the quote of Washington's earlier it is not true of Washington. I will repost it here for you convenience, "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." Later on I will also show why Christianity was more important to Jefferson than may appear.

"The constitution still serves as the law of the FEDERAL government. Remember, this debate is referencing to the FEDERAL government."
True, however it is important to look into the context as the state Constitutions in a large part served as a model for the Federal Constitution because by that time most of the states had their Constitutions already written.

‘"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (YHWH)." Clearly this is not taken from the 10 commandments, otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to worship other gods!" If one were creating a government with religious freedoms they couldn't very well include that in there. I am referring to other Commandments that while not explicitly stated in the Constitution there are implications from the 10 commandments.
"The Bible, especially the book of Deuteronomy, contributed 34 % of all quotations used by our Founding Fathers." If the origin of the other sources are counted then it composes 94% of their quotations. John Adams wrote in 1798"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." Since this seems to contradict his statements in the Treaty of Tripoli we should look at the frequency that he mentioned God or Religion as opposed to the opposite. He referenced the Ten Commandments so we can be fairly certain he was referring to the God of the Bible. Even though Jefferson's own beliefs were questionable, in 1786 he writes , "if a person brought up in the Christian religion denies the being of a God, or the Trinity, or asserts there are more gods than one, or denies the Christian religion to be true, or the Scriptures to be of divine authority, he is punishable on the first offense by incapacity to hold any office of employment, ecclesiastical, civil or military; on the second by disability to sue, to take any gift or legacy, to be guardian, executor, or administrator, and by three
years' imprisonment without bail." Those sound like pretty harsh punishments for heresy, especially coming from a Deist. Check this source to see the other examples of these quotes.[1]

In fact Jefferson and Franklin decided in Biblical imagery for the Seal of the United States. Franklin is another example of someone who struggled with his faith but promoted the importance of Christianity. [2]

"Have you even read the Bible? I highly doubt it if you are saying that. Of course, this is not that type of debate so if you want me to quote some evil bible verses, we can in another debate." I have read the Bible and am pretty sure I know which verses you have in mind. You are right it would be a whole different debate. So for the sake of keeping this debate from going in too many directions, I will not address this further.

So even though many of the Founders had funny views of what Christianity actually was and probably couldn't truly be called Christians, it is clear that they thought that it was important an so at least in public supported Christian ideas.

I pass it on to my opponent

1 http://www.alliancealert.org... (p. 24)
2 http://www.torenewamerica.com...
Debate Round No. 3
kohai

Con

This is the last round and wish my opponent the best of luck.

I am referring to other Commandments that while not explicitly stated in the Constitution there are implications from the 10 commandments.

What commandments? The commandments "Thou shalt not steal, murder etc." then why do secular governments also have those basic laws?

Furthermore, let me explain why the law of the US cannot be based off of the Bible.

1. The Bible permits requiers stoning and burning.

There are many cases where, in the Bible, a certain sin is punished by either burning the person or stoning. Those are two of the most horrific deaths imaginable.

The Bill of Rights CLEARLY states that there should be no cruel and unusual punishment.

2. Freedom of Religion

The Bible states that we should kill those that are worship other gods (i.e. NOT Christians)


I have read the Bible and am pretty sure I know which verses you have in mind. You are right it would be a whole different debate. So for the sake of keeping this debate from going in too many directions, I will not address this further.

Case closed for this part.

So even though many of the Founders had funny views of what Christianity actually was and probably couldn't truly be called Christians, it is clear that they thought that it was important an so at least in public supported Christian ideas.

I have proved through the use of the bill of rights and some of the basic laws we have that it could not be based entierly off of the Bible as Christians claim.

Conclusion

The resolution to this debate was that the US government was NOT founded entirely off of the Bible, as Christians claim. I have proved that through the use of how the US bill of rights contradict the Bible.

While religion may have been important, it was certainly NOT everything. I am an Atheist, but I read the Bible (especially Proverbs and some of the wisdoms) as it does have some good, but mostly bad, moral guides.

Final quotes

In regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that Gen. Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant.... I have been written to by many on that point, and have been obliged to answer them as I now do you (Remsberg, p. 104).

"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it."

". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

James Madison;
"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson;
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
- "Notes on Virginia"

Ben Franklin;
"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."
- Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

Thomas Paine;
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, Feb. 1800


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.

2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.

3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.

4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.

5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."

- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822

.
http://freethought.mbdojo.com...


BennyW

Pro

I thank my opponent and as this is the last round I will wrap things up without bringing anything new into the debate.

"The Bible permits requiers stoning and burning." Which are part of the verses I thought you would bring up but are not part of the Ten Commandments and I was referring specifically to the Ten Commandments.

"Freedom of Religion" I have addressed this already

"I have proved through the use of the bill of rights and some of the basic laws we have that it could not be based entierly off of the Bible as Christians claim." Maybe not entirely, but there is a lot of influence from the Bible.

"The resolution to this debate was that the US government was NOT founded entirely off of the Bible, as Christians claim. I have proved that through the use of how the US bill of rights contradict the Bible." Actually the Resolution was more along the lines of Christianity having no influence if it had been said from the start that there was allowance for some Christian influence I wouldn't have had to go after it so hard. Here was your original premise. "Nowhere in the constitution does it appeal to any religion. It creates a secular government. The US government derives "From the people" not God. In fact, it separates the church from the state! The state has no business being in the church and the church has no business running our nation!"

In response to a few of the quotes
"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"
I agree with his sentiment, the Papacy is a theocratic dictatorship, with a bureaucratic hierarchy. I am not a Catholic.
Your final quote by Waterhouse is mostly a mischaracterization of Christianity.

In conclusion I don't see my opponent as sufficiently discrediting Christian influence on the Constitution and Law of the United States. I have shown how Christianity was an important part of life during the time the Constitution was written even if some of the signers did not agree with everything Christianity taught. I thank my opponent for the debate and for sticking through it and not forfeiting like my other two concurrent debate opponents did.
Debate Round No. 4
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mcc1789 4 years ago
mcc1789
England certainly led the Western world in capital punishment at the time. However, because many of the American colonies based their laws on those of the Bible does not mean the United States was founded as a Christian nation. In fact the United States Constitution was specifically criticized as being godless by lacking reference to a deity, unlike the Declaration of Independence (though even that was more deist) and it was felt this failure would invoke divine retribution. The United States was founded as a secular nation, perhaps the only one in existence back then. Sodomy is also not equivalent to homosexuality, or "being gay"-it means anal intercourse and oral intercourse, whether or not the people involved were of the same sex, or intercourse with an animal. Thus bestiality originally was not held separate, making it listed as another offense redundant. The good old days-when "only" adulterers, perjurers, rebellious children, sodomites, and "witches", got the death penalty in addition to murder or treason. So basically a Christian counterpart of Sharia.
Posted by BennyW 4 years ago
BennyW
If I had used this I would have won for sure
Posted by System113 5 years ago
System113
"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."  John Adams
Posted by headphonegut 5 years ago
headphonegut
Nothing he's alive and kicking also well presented arguments kohai
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
What happened to Kohai?
Posted by baggins 5 years ago
baggins
Burden of Proof was shared. Neither side adequately fulfilled the burden.

Pro had to prove 'USA was founded upon Christianity'. As such he bring forward no clear evidence from the constitution itself or from founders that USA was founded on Christianity. Agreed that many people who founded USA were Christians. But their personal opinion on religion does not prove what they intended for USA.

Con had to prove 'The USA was NOT founded upon Christianity'. As half of the people who wrote constitution were Christians - it is possible that they planned it based on Christianity. Con has not presented any clear statement proof that Christianity was just a matter of personal opinion for the Christian founding fathers. Absence of evidence...

1:0 to Kohai as he came closer to fulfilling his task, IMO.
Posted by Rockylightning 5 years ago
Rockylightning
"Christianity was NOT founded upon Christianity"

yerp
Posted by BennyW 5 years ago
BennyW
It appears my loppoinent has closed his account, I know he was in the middlew of other debates but am glad he finished this one. Perhapse he just shut it down temporarily for finals or something.
Posted by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
TFT, thanks. For now on I'll use standard Times New Roman
Posted by TheFreeThinker 5 years ago
TheFreeThinker
Kohai, you should use regular size fonts and keep the finger away from the caps lock. It makes it very hard to read your arguments without getting annoyed BY THE conSTant CHANGES in fOnt.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by detachment345 5 years ago
detachment345
kohaiBennyWTied
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Reasons for voting decision: had much stronger arguments than pro
Vote Placed by TheFreeThinker 5 years ago
TheFreeThinker
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Reasons for voting decision: Vote for con
Vote Placed by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: I gave 1 Pt to Benny for similar reasons as Baggins. Neither side fulfilled their BoP, however... since Con is the instigator and defined the debate it should have been easier to fulfill his BoP.
Vote Placed by FREEDO 5 years ago
FREEDO
kohaiBennyWTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con's evidence is damning and was not properly countered by Pro.
Vote Placed by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
kohaiBennyWTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con kept moving the goal posts, and so lost the conduct. The original resolution was the founding of the US. That is not limited to just the Constitution, nor just the federal government. That would have also cost Con the arguments, however Pro really tripped up in round 2 by bringing in the 10 commandments. I felt that when he got into the actual bible, his arguments broke apart.
Vote Placed by baggins 5 years ago
baggins
kohaiBennyWTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: 1:0 to Kohai. Analysis in comments.