The Instigator
tim.borgerson
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
adamh
Con (against)
Winning
34 Points

The USFG should universalize its healthcare system.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/3/2008 Category: Health
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,796 times Debate No: 1304
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (15)

 

tim.borgerson

Pro

On September 11th 3,000 Americans were killed. Since then we have pursued the killers to the fullest extent, essentially stopping at no means to avenge their deaths. But as this is going on, it tends to be neglect that 18,000 people in the US die deaths that could be prevented if they were better insured, yet practically nothing is being done about it. It is because of this that I believe action should be taken to provide healthcare through the government to everyone in the United States.

The United States ranks at the top of the list in terms of quality of health care, but we rank 30th (tied with fiji) in terms of how available it is to the general populous. Over 40 million people in the US are under insured. In recent years we have spent about 16% of our GDp on healthcare, about twice as much as Japan and Sweden (both who have a universal system) and they visit the doctor an average of four times more per year than Americans. Basically what I'm leading into is that the privatized system in the US is MORE bureaucratic than most socialized government systems. Want more proof? Since the 1970s the growth of the number of medical administrators has exceedingly surpassed that of doctors and nurses, simply because all of the red tape that must be dealt with. Furthermore in the privatized system we face over utilization and underutilization. Wealthy people with all inclusive policies go get a CAT scan when they have a headache, where poorer people go to the hospital only when they really need to (they often go to the emergency room which is EXTREMELY expensive). The problem with this is that one often could have easily prevented the ailment with a doctors guidance but now it is too late and one has to undergo an expensive procedure. Underutilization occurs because now healthcare is run as a business and business means competition. Fore example, lets say a small region has two hospitals and one hospital has a CAT scan. While this one CAT scan may be enough to serve the entire region, the other hospital has to purchase its own CAT scan in order to compete, thus wasting money. This can be prevented if the government bypasses this inefficiency with its own health insurance system.

The system in the status quo is also inherently immoral. Currently healthcare in the US is regarded as a privilege when is it should be a right. Now, people are split into two groups: thoes who can afford healthcare and those who cant. The people in the second group are being dehumanized because they are being separated into this other group. Essentially they are being told that they are not worthy of such a right because they are poor. Even if they do have medicaid, the quality of their healthcare is significantly less. This situation is reminiscent of poll taxes that deprived poor people the right to vote because they could not afford the tax. Under the status quo we are simply widening the gap between social classes.

The Economy also suffers because of our outrageous system. (for this argument I'm going to make a list just for the sake of time)

High HC costs is the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US.

It motivates outsourcing of well paying jobs because in the US, corporations have to deal with high healthcare costs, where in countries like Japan and Canada they do not.

Small businesses, the backbone of the American economy will be more competitive because they will not have to compete with large corporations that can afford to offer healthcare.

A 20 thousand dollar car costs 17 thousand in an economy with universal healthcare because they don't have to pay healthcare. Large American companies are going to be more competitive.

It will alleviate tensions between corps and unions, for healthcare is one of the biggest gaps between them. This leads to fewer strikes and bad PR.

People with health insurance are 30 percent more productive at work.
adamh

Con

Good topic Tim, I'm glad we can debate this...

I appreciate the fact that you, unlike many of your liberal constituents, acknowledge the fact in the second paragraph of your opening argument, that America has top quality healthcare. I'm glad you realize this fact and put it out there for the voting audience to see as it will be a big part of my argument against yours. I'd like to pose a question and I'd like you to think about it as I make my points during this opening argument: Why do you think the quality is at the top here in America?

Reason 1: The Doctors Incentives
Doctors are some of the smartest graduates out there. Many of them are smart enough to accomplish anything they want, and choose any career they want. Why do these folks get into the field of medicine then? Aside from it interesting them and wanting to help people the answer comes down to a simple word: money. Yes, it's a cruel world, and it's crazy to think that doctors don't come to work everyday to look at sick and disease-ridden people for fun, but it's true. It's their job and they're there to make money. They get paid the big bucks because their profession is a skilled, stressful and time-consuming one. Why would a smart and capable young man or woman with the freedom to go anywhere with their life choose to spend 8 years in post-secondary education, take a job that is stressful and high pressure with a large workload far-extending the traditional 'work day'? The answer is simply the financial benefits.
Under a Socialized Health Care plan, the doctors wages would drastically fall and there would be no monetary incentive for smart people to get into the business when they could make more being, say a lawyer. There would either be a shortage of doctors and those still in the field would have even larger numbers of patients to worry about (thus less time per patient will be available); or there would still be many doctors in the field but they will be less qualified. If doctor jobs are always available, people will get into the field just so they can be guaranteed a job, and chances are these people won't exactly be cream of the crop. When you need brain surgery do want the guy who got all A's in medical school or the guy who barely passed but secured his job merely because there was a great need for doctors and they were willing to take just about anyone with a medical agree? As it is now, the best doctors get the jobs and the bad doctors don't make it, thus bringing only the best care to the American people.

Reason 2: Free Markets & Privatization
Currently, health providers are private businesses and work within the free market economy that America knows and loves. By making health care government owned-and-operated, we are giving way too much power to the government in an area which they should not be involved. Your health is your business and it is a private matter, it is not any business of the state. By taking the competition out of the business of health care, you are settling for whatever you get. It's called a monopoly. If you want health care you have but one place to go, too bad if you don't like it. Even if the health care sucks (which it will) you have no choice. In our current system, if your doctor sucks what do you do? You change doctors or if your insurance company sucks you may be able to change insurance companies. After a while the bad doctors patients are all going to leave and he'll be out of a job, meanwhile the good doctors will thrive and continue providing excellent care for your money. This is an example of competition, without which, we are forced into mediocrity.

Reason 3: We're Medical Pioneers
You were quick to point out that America spends more (16% of GDP) than countries like Japan and Sweden per year. What you failed to recognize is that America is also the world's leader in medical innovation/advancement and medical technology. It's because of us that countries like Japan and Sweden can spend less, they steal our technology and technique after we spend loads of money to come up with it. Not only do we help the world have better medical care, but we're lucky because we generally get the first crack at new technology and procedures. Without America, the world would be in a much worse place medically-speaking.

Reason 4: Taxes
I already have health insurance through my job and I pay a small co-pay (about $20 a week) and my employer pays the rest. If Universal health care becomes a reality, I'm looking at spending WAY more per week, but rather than pay it to/through my employer, it would come out through taxes by the way of even larger income taxes. It is estimated that I would be paying about 15-25% more in taxes which pans out to around $90 more a week. That's $70 less income per week that I should have in my pocket, and what do I have to show for it? Worse health care than I had when I paid $20 a week? $90 x 52 paychecks a year = $4,680 as compared to $1,040 when I was sharing the cost with my employer. So now I have to pay for my health insurance by myself as well as for our illegal immigrant and lazy jobless friends. This is thievery and corruption of the highest level and will not stand in a free republic.

Reason 5: Health Care is NOT A RIGHT!
The only rights we have are those granted to us in the Constitution, and no where in there does it say every American deserves free care for no reason. Health care is something you earn like a house, a car, food, and any other thing you may want or need. This is America where freedom reigns, no one is stopping anyone from achieving for themselves. If Americans take freebies from the government, the government will take freedom from the Americans. I'm not willing to sacrifice my freedoms and wreck the medical profession, economy, and my personal income so every American can be covered.

I'd also like to say that 18,000 people dying, that could have been prevented is hearsay. There's no way to literally prove if they would have lived or not based on their health care situation. I did read the USA Today article that you undoubtedly pulled this factoid from and you forgot to mention that this "ESTIMATED DEATH TOLL" had included a hypothetical 1,400 people with high blood pressure, and 1,500 hypothetical people with HIV. Both of these are preventable diseases if you eat right and don't have lewd sexual encounters or illegal drug usage. The report failed to mention how many other preventable diseases the other hypothetical people had, but it's fair to say it was probably quite a few of them. The study has no actual proof or numbers to back it up, it's just numbers pushed around used to prove their point.

Let me close by saying that I wish that Universal Health Care was a realistic possibility. I would love for every American to have health care. However, I judge ideas by the facts, not by its intentions, and I conclude this plan would do more harm than good to this great country.
Debate Round No. 1
tim.borgerson

Pro

tim.borgerson forfeited this round.
adamh

Con

My opponent has closed his account. Evidently, my argument was too much for him to handle. In the final post, I will put list more reasons that socialized healthcare would be bad for America.
Debate Round No. 2
tim.borgerson

Pro

tim.borgerson forfeited this round.
adamh

Con

To rehash my ideas, here's a list of reasons:
• Poorer quality doctors
• Poorer quality care
• Longer wait times
• High taxes
• Government Empowerment
• Personal Freedoms lost
• Reduced efficiency
• Profit motive and competition will be lost
• Government mandates will reduce doctors flexibility
• People who chose to risk their health (smoking/drinking/drugs) will be discriminated
• Subsidized incentives for MD grads will make income taxes higher still
• Eliminate privacy
• Bureaucratic monopsony
• May lead to outlawing your right to private care
• If private care is outlawed in the States, citizens won't have anywhere to go for immediate treatment even if they're willing to pay
• Evidence shows single payer-insurance programs costs exceed the expectations of its advocates
• Empowers the government to be able to say: "if you keep smoking, we'll deny you coverage." This takes away freedom in the form of the choice to smoke, eat, or drink as you please.
• Over time, UHC will be seen as not a social program, but as a right. This will make it near impossible to remove the program down the road when costs get out of control
•Will hurt the economy (less money in the pockets of patrons, loss of insurance jobs and businesses closing)

Also, take some of these figures into consideration as well: The majority of the 40 million (out of our pop. of nearly 330 million) uninsured in America either do not feel like its worth the money to invest in, or they choose not to work & therefore cannot afford it. There are also some who are temporarily between jobs and haven't had their benefits kick in yet & they are counted as uninsured. Yes, there are some who work & want to afford it but can't, this number is somewhere in the realm of 9 million.Yes 9 million out of our 330 million people are uninsured, that's about 3% of the population. Don't let the numbers fool you into thinking that a huge percentage of the population is unable to get health care, it simply isn't true. Therefore, the other 97% should not be forced into changing our ways for 3% of the population, especially when it means more money out of pocket and worse medical care for the majority of us. To help these folks, there needs to be better private charities. Also, the government needs to give better tax benefits to people who donate to these charities, so more people will do it. Inspire people to help the needy by receiving incentives from the government, not helping by letting the government control everyone in an extremely personal way.

Thanks for the debate (or lack thereof).
Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by silentwitness 9 years ago
silentwitness
Adam H is brilliant. I despise liberal. Congratulations Adam; you've got this in the bag.
Posted by benames75 9 years ago
benames75
This debate does count he had the responsibility to respond and didn't therefore he looses. No questions asked. It is obvious that the people who voted in favor of national health care did so because that is their opinion. And they didn't even read the debate. THIS IS BS!!!
Posted by dayntwillrise 9 years ago
dayntwillrise
This debate hardly counts when the guy fails to respond.
Posted by griffinisright 9 years ago
griffinisright
SO It all comes down to this. Go get em ADAMH looks to me that you won this one hands down!
Posted by jessica.spangler 9 years ago
jessica.spangler
H-ha I love cons last argument!
Posted by AmericanSoldier 9 years ago
AmericanSoldier
Man, Vikuta, you are WAY out in left field. I saw your ideas about being a citizen of the world. I am glad you made it back from the sand box, but I pray that you are planning on ETS-ing SOON.
Posted by tim.borgerson 9 years ago
tim.borgerson
hah well I promise ill get around to responding to your argument soon... Im really qute busy so I cant make any promises. Yeah It is a shame Tancredo dropped out... he was always so interesting to watch in the debates. He could relate anything to immigration. Of course, there is still Alan Keys to keep things lively.
Posted by adamh 9 years ago
adamh
No I'm not quite that libertarian-minded. I support Fred Thompson now that Duncan Hunter and Tom Tancredo obviously stand no chance of winning.
Posted by tim.borgerson 9 years ago
tim.borgerson
adamh... are you by any chance a Ron Paul fanatic?
Posted by Vikuta 9 years ago
Vikuta
BTW I have 100% disagreement with a quite a few people on this site...
15 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by U.n 11 months ago
U.n
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