The Instigator
Delcano
Pro (for)
Losing
16 Points
The Contender
Korashk
Con (against)
Winning
30 Points

The Ultimate Fight!!! Goku vs. Superman!! Goku wins!!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/1/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 36,431 times Debate No: 12205
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (37)
Votes (8)

 

Delcano

Pro

I have looked at countless debates of this topic, and I believe I have a fool-proof plan that is fair and reasonable! Send only your greatest debater. P.S The argument I use has worked twice so far. Rules are simple; they must remain in character, they are on the Earth, and they are going all out. Finally, please don't arrive and give liberal links, you know, that are missing a crucial point that may damage or refute your point
Korashk

Con

I apologize for posting so late. I am doing a lot of "end of the year" things for school.

I will now let Pro present his arguments, but I also have some terms and clarifications for the debate:

1.) It does not make sense to think that they should remain completely in-character. If they did that then they wouldn't be fighting. So instead of in-character, I propose that they act as they normally would in a fight with one of their opponents.
2.) The model for comparison should be them at their strongest.
3.) No semantics, Goku and Superman are both well-known characters. Don't claim that some guy named Superman (they exist) couldn't win in a fight against Goku.

I now open the floor for my opponent.
Debate Round No. 1
Delcano

Pro

First of all, I would like to thank my opponent for accepting challenge.

I haven't been on this site that long, but I'm pretty sure you don't get to lay any terms or clarifications.... I don't want to sound like a douche, but hey.

Anyway, they can be in character and still fight. Any bit of an imagination allows it.

First off, I am telling everyone, I think Superman is faster and physically stronger, obviously Goku wins in the spiritual department (ki). But the ability to, lets say, run faster than your opponent doesn't mean you're Faster in a fight. Not even close!! Reflex, technique and thinking on your feet is something Goku has way over the man of steel. Not to say Superman doesn't have them, but that Goku is far superior in them. This and Gokus ability to sense energy means he will always be able to tell where his opponent is!

Strength is also, in a fight, measured not in your physical power, but you're ability to manipulate your own and, in some martial arts like Judo, your opponents. Goku is a martial arts master in just about every form. He sees it and learns it instantly! No need for reference to this ability, but for the sake of argument, when Goku first learns the Kamehameha.

A argument ender I once saw was that Superman could simply lift Goku into space and hold on till he dies. Obviously, any Dragonball Z fan knows that Goku can use instant transmission to get away. And that he doesn't need to put his hands to his forehead to do it, unless he wants to be precise over a long distance. Example, when fighting Cell, Goku is floating above Cell, on the verge of the last syllable for the Kamehameha, then teleports below him and blows him away. Both his hands were in a cup by his sides and he was concentrating intensely on it.

I eagerly await the response from my opponent.
P.S
There are guys called SUPERMAN!?! Awesome!
Korashk

Con

It is my contention that Goku at his strongest would not be able to defeat Superman in a fight.

Goku's strongest form is Super Saiyan 4 [1]. In this form he is very powerful, but not nearly so much so that he could even put a scratch on Goku.

Here is a list of Superman's applicable powers [2]:

* Strength so great that he is capable of moving multiple planets at the same time
* Flight
* Super speed, so fast that he is capable of travelling through time
* Invulnerability to the point that he can withstand flying through stars
* Super vision that included x-ray and microscopic capabilities
* Hearing so good that he is capable of listening to conversations from the other side of the planet
* Breath capable of freezing objects, generating hurricane force winds, and holding it indefinitely for underwater and space travel
* Mental abilities that gave him genius level intelligence and the ability to focus his sensory powers
* The ability to hypnotize his opponents to control their actions and erase their memories
* Ability to survive indefinitely without food or water
* Regenerative abilities so great that he was able to heal himself after being reduced to a skeleton by a specially designed nuclear weapon that could blot out the sun and disrupt his powers. Goku will not have access to this weapon.

Now, I am a fan of Goku just as much as the next guy, but there's no way that a mortal could be victorious against a being this immensely powerful.

[1] http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[2] http://superman.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Delcano

Pro

First I would like to thank my opponent for responding, although I am disappointed in their response.
I will give you reasons to vote PRO.

He references abilities that are mostly known, his personal views (without evidence!) and thats it.

He brings his opinion, without any evidence, that Super Saiyan 4 Goku would lose to Superman, although he obviously had grammatical error as he said
‘Goku's strongest form is Super Saiyan 4 [1]. In this form he is very powerful, but not nearly so much so that he could even put a scratch on Goku.' No scenario, no evidence, nothing.

Your reference is laughable! Wikia? I could just as easily go onto the site and change it to say anything!! It is good for laughs and such, but here? If you send a link, it must be reliable. Wikia is not.

The powers you mention are well known, (except for the mind control one) but seem pointless, if only to lengthen your post. If you referenced them to something applicable to this, then OK, but you didn't.

Ultimately, your ‘response' seems put together at the last minute. You don't mention my post, let alone reply how it would play out in your opinion. My argument still stands tall. Please respond to it and bring your own questions and answers.

Keep it together for Round 3!! Vote PRO!
Korashk

Con

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I thank my opponent for his response.

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Rebuttals
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///Your reference is laughable! Wikia? I could just as easily go onto the site and change it to say anything!! It is good for laughs and such, but here? If you send a link, it must be reliable. Wikia is not.///

There is nothing wrong with my source. It is not my problem if you choose to not accept it's validity. In fact you have given no source for any of your contentions. I reccomend that you do this before the debate's conclusion. You have a lot of time.
~

///[Point about reflexes]///

Goku may have faster reflexes, but I don't see how that matters when he is unable to harm Superman.
~

///[Point about technique/martial arts]///

See above.
~

So far my opponent has given no evidence to show that Goku would be able to harm Superman in any way. Physical attacks will not work and it is his responsibility as instigator and Pro to affirm the resolution. I await my opponent's response.
Debate Round No. 3
Delcano

Pro

Thanks to my opponent for his response.

These reasons are the big reasons why you should all vote PRO!

Your reference is not reliable. Because it's a website that ANYONE can change. ANYONE can say ANYTHING about ANYONE. In college, if you say ‘I got my sources from wikipedia' the teacher will not accept it. What if I decided that I wanted to change Supermans strength to 50 ton max? And had a reference? Would I be right?

Second, you also haven't given any source for Supermans strength that can eclipse Gokus, but for the sake of argument, I will do what many DBZ fans believe is suicide. I will go against Pre-Crisis Superman. The man who sneezed away a galaxy. And win. How? Read on…

First off, strength wise, at a level of 10, Goku has been able to lift small cars over his head and throw them, see Dragonball episode 1. Now, according to this http://www.dbzwarriors.com... Super Saiyan Goku has a power level of 150,000,000. I implore you to focus on the from the Daizenshu, as the rest seems to be speculation. Then the other three, as we are using the most powerful forms that are approved by Akira Toriyama (an example of non approved forms are Super Saiyan 5 and 6 from Dragonball AF) multiply that level even more, although the exact amount of multiplication is not officially said, but is obviously more than 10 times each. That means his power level is AT LEAST 150000000000, not counting his base power up throughout the series. Now, imagine how powerful he is now.

Next, speed. From the episode 127. Quicker Than Lightning, Goku is able to dodge a lightning bolt at a Power Level of 260, use earlier reference for proof. Using the last point, imagine how fast he is by the end.

Now, I usually save this ‘till last, but I'll say it now. In the Movie Super Android 13! Goku defeats Android 13 by creating a Spirit Bomb and absorbing the energy with all the energy on Earth. If you debate whether or not it was all the power on Earth, it will only hurt your argument. Now, by the end of DBGT, overseen and approved by Akira Toriyama, Goku makes a Spirit Bomb to defeat Omega Shenron out of all the energy in the Universe. Now, the Spirit Bomb doesn't work on those who are pure of heart. Whether Superman is pure of heart is a debate for another time. Lets say he is, then Goku could absorb the energy and use it as his own. His power would be unlike anything ever seen

This wouldn't be necessary as Gokus power would be more than enough to deal with Superman.

You wanted evidence that Goku could hurt Superman? Done. Please be quicker with your response . VOTE PRO
Korashk

Con

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I thank my opponent for his response and again say that the reason that my responses are slow is because of high school graduation stuff. Primarily open houses and graduation parties.

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Rebuttals
~~~~~~~

Since my opponent continues to stubbornly reject my source I will oblige him with some additional ones.

Superman dodging a punch thrown by The Flash, effectively demonstrating his reflexes. [2]
Superman travelling trillions of miles in seconds. [1]
Superman destroying a galaxy with a sneeze. [3]
Superman becoming dazed for a micro-second after surviving a supernova [4]
~

The rest of my opponent's points go to show how strong Goku is, which is all well and good. The only problem is that my opponent's speculation about the power level of Goku is exactly that. Speculation that holds no argumentative weight.

My opponent also mentions the spirit bomb, which is a very powerful attack with one notable drawback. It takes a long time to use [5]. Goku is not invulnerable to physical attacks like Superman is, as is evidenced by the fact that Goku dies multiple times throughout the Dragon Ball Z canon. He would be unable to use this attack to the potential needed to do anything to Superman.

As evidenced by the comic exerpt Superman is capable of taking a direct hit from the kind of clast that can create stars and form black holes. Which is what supernovas do [6]. They are also capable of quickly releasing the same amount of energy that is emitted from a sun over it's entire lifespan. This is a lot of energy and is likely more than is capable for a mortal to handle and generate effectively in a fight. While Goku may be able to eventually generate this kind of power he needs time, and lots of it.

While we're on the subject of black holes [7] here's a comic exerpt of a Superman incarnation that is not Pre-Crisis (the strongest incarnation) holding back the forces of a black hole [8]. To show that Goku would be able to even possibly harm Superman my opponent would have to show that Goku is capable of generating more than this kind of force with his non-time-consuming attacks. Something he can not do.

The resolution is negated.

[1] http://img72.imageshack.us...
[2] http://www.elmarginado.com...
[3] http://img57.imageshack.us...
[4] http://img168.imageshack.us...
[5] http://dragonball.wikia.com...
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[7] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[8] http://img377.imageshack.us...
Debate Round No. 4
Delcano

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for a wonderful debate.

Where to start?

Firstly, rebuttal. My opponents links are showing how fast is outside a fight, which is, how I've stated, irrelevant in a fight, as training to fight faster is completely different to training to running faster. Also, the one with The Flash were good, showing that Superman had reflexes, but I already stated that he had good reflexes, but weren't near the level of Goku. Some of the scans show Supermans incredible durability. Which I agree with. But these following points show how the Superman can be defeated.

Now, for the final counterattack. Despite having shown Gokus strength, I will now go into irrefutable proof. Near the end of Dragonball GT, Goku gets sent into Hell. There he fights Frieza and Cell. Now, Cell when he was killed had roughly the same power level as a Super Saiyan 2. Goku is able to dispatch of him within seconds, albeit, it being Hell, he returns to ‘life' right after. That means, Goku is easily as powerful as a Super Saiyan 2 in his base form, meaning he will definitely get a 50 time power increase when he transforms into Super Saiyan 1. Then the rest is just gravy J.

A lightning bolt moves at roughly half the speed of light. At a power level of 150,000,000, Goku can move 288,461 (roughly) times faster than light. That's not speculation, that's simple mathematics. So, combine this with the strength level in the above segment, imagine how fast he is now? IN A FIGHT. Which is what he specialises in, not long distance flight.

But, I will play every angle. Lets say Superman is too strong and Goku can't harm him. You acknowledge the Genki Dama (Spirit Bomb), but criticise it because of the time it takes to make. But, by the end of GT, Gokus mastery of the Spirit Bomb allows him to make one in a couple of minutes, that comprises of all the energy in the Universe. But to do it in battle is not impossible. Goku has Instant Transmission that allows him to travel very far very fast. Like many of Gokus techniques, it seems to increase in power as he does, as evident in episode 188 ‘A Hero's Farewell', as Goku transports within mere seconds to the Other world. This is supported by Kid Buu, as he goes from planet to planet, constantly blowing himself up, and regenerating in seconds, taking time to regenerate.
With this technique, Goku can go anywhere, charge the attack, and come back and blow Supes away. Also, while using this technique, Goku has incredible damage resistance, as he takes a direct blow from Omega Shenrons ultimate attack without a scratch. Alternatively, Goku can absorb its energy, as I've stated in other arguments.

Now, for more reasons to vote Pro, I will give techniques Goku can use to deal heavy blows in combat. The Afterimage technique, which allows him to leave images of himself (blurred for the viewers). As Superman can't sense ki, so Goku could deal a critical blow while Superman is wondering which Gokus the real one and The Solar Flare, which blinds the enemy temporarily.

With these reasons, I believe Superman would lose to Goku in a fight. He has so much power and an near infinite amount when the need is called upon. I call my opponent to challenge a man who can travel across dimensions within seconds, summon all the power in the universe in minutes, is the greatest martial artist ever and can still be the coolest, funniest guy ever. VOTE PRO!!!!!
Korashk

Con

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I thank my opponent for his response.

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Rebuttals
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///Also, the one with The Flash were good, showing that Superman had reflexes, but I already stated that he had good reflexes, but weren't near the level of Goku.///

Let's do the math, The Flash is capable of throwing hundreds of punches at a single opponent in one second [1]. The source doesn't give a specific number so I'll do the calculations with a few of them, the equation is (one second)/(number of punches)=(Superman's reflex speed)

* At 200 punches in one second Superman's reflex speed is: .005 seconds
* At 500 punches in one second Superman's reflex speed is: .002 seconds
* At 700 punches in one second Superman's reflex speed is: .00142857143 seconds

This is plenty fast, and since all my opponent has done is claim that Goku is faster without proof I would say that they are on about equal footing in this department.
~

///That means, Goku is easily as powerful as a Super Saiyan 2 in his base form, meaning he will definitely get a 50 time power increase when he transforms into Super Saiyan 1. Then the rest is just gravy J.///

More speculation, there's no doubt that Goku does get stronger when go upgrades to his higher levels of Super Saiyan, but without a standard that means nothing.
~

///Goku can move 288,461 (roughly) times faster than light.///

Where is this number coming from? I don't see any references that give it credence.
~

///With this technique, Goku can go anywhere, charge the attack, and come back and blow Supes away.///

Not anywhere, anywhere on Earth. This was your term not mine. Superman has super hearing and speed. There is nowhere on earth that Goku could go and be safe from Superman for more than a second or two. Travelling across the Earth is nothing compared to traveling TRILLIONS of miles in seconds.
~

With that I conclude the debate and leave our fate up to the voters.

[1] http://theflash.wikia.com...(Barry_Allen)
Debate Round No. 5
37 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Korashk 3 years ago
Korashk
This debate took place more than 3 years ago. I'm still baffled as to why it gets attention.
Posted by TetsuRiken 3 years ago
TetsuRiken
Yojimbo from FFX just to clarify
Posted by TetsuRiken 3 years ago
TetsuRiken
1} Anyone going to bring god in this
2} SSJ 4 doesn't count any more
3}how would Superbich fair angenst Yojimbo i just wondering

Ps i cant spell
Posted by Korashk 3 years ago
Korashk
1.) Goku isn't very smart and probably wouldn't know about Superman's relation with solar radiation.

2.) Superman doesn't immediately weaken when out of contact with the sun.

3.) Goku doesn't like to gain an advantage over his opponents. He likes fighting them at their strongest.
Posted by ModusTollens 3 years ago
ModusTollens
Why doesn't Goku just instant transmission Superman out of the solar system the way he did with Cell? Superman's powers are entirely dependent on being near a yellow sun. So, if Goku were to take him to, say, the Krypton system, it would be Goku vs. some guy with no powers.
Posted by Gamerfreak1313 4 years ago
Gamerfreak1313
So, what does the person going for goku think about the Death Battle with Goku and Superman on screwattack.
Posted by Maikuru 4 years ago
Maikuru
Geek fight! Geek fight! Geek fight!
Posted by Korashk 4 years ago
Korashk
Even if it's true, the Thought Robot isn't a version of Superman, it's essentially armor.
Posted by Gamerfreak1313 4 years ago
Gamerfreak1313
False. The strongest version of superman is the Thought Robot as seen in Final Crisis Superman Beyond 3D. Followed by Superman Prime 1,000,000 who is the closest thing to omnipotence Superman will ever get check.
Posted by Korashk 4 years ago
Korashk
The contender can set terms; and Superman Prime.
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by TetsuRiken 3 years ago
TetsuRiken
DelcanoKorashkTied
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Vote Placed by brokenboy 6 years ago
brokenboy
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Vote Placed by mcala7 6 years ago
mcala7
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BobMarleyIsDead
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knick-knack
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Vote Placed by xxdarkxx 6 years ago
xxdarkxx
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