The Instigator
NotTheMessiah
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
cheesedingo1
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Umbrella Academy could defeat the Minute Men.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
NotTheMessiah
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/13/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 5,331 times Debate No: 22486
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (58)
Votes (1)

 

NotTheMessiah

Pro

"LOOK MA, I'M STARTIN' A DEBATE.

Yup, it's a comic-book hero showdown between Alan Moore's Minute Men of "Watchmen" and the Umbrella Academy from the comic book of the same name by Gerard Way.

The respective line-ups are as follows:
Minute Men:
1. Edward Blake, AKA- The Comedian.
2: Dr. John Osterman, AKA-Dr. Manhattan
3: Daniel Dreiberg, AKA- Nite Owl II
4: Adrian Veidt, AKA Ozymandias.
5: Walter Joseph Kovacs, AKA- Rorschach.
6: Laurie Juspeczyk, AKA- Silk Spectre II.

Spectators who are unfamiler with this team can follow this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Umbrella Academy:

1: Luther Hargreeves, AKA- Spaceboy.
2: Diego Hargreeves, AKA- Kraken.
3: Allison Hargreeves, AKA- The Rumour.
4: Klaus Hargreeves, AKA- Seance.
5: 00.05 (Name Unknown) AKA- The Boy.
6: Vanya Hargreeves, AKA- White Violin.

Again, spectators who are unfamiliar with this team can follow the link bellow:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Since he is deceased in continuity and little is known about him, Ben Hargreeves (AKA- The Horror) is being discounted.

Basically it's an all out brawl. Due to tachyon interference and the loss of Number 5's long range time traveling capabilities, neither teams have any prior knowlege or experience of the other, they pretty much just meet in a deserted replica of earth, in a neutral, pocket dimension and told to go at it.
Note that this debate centres on the powers and abilities of the characters rather than the quality of the series themselves. Some knowlege of both teams preferred, particuarly the Minute Men, or at least be able to accsess information about both teams. My opponant should have read at least ONE of either series.

They may state their case first and can decide whether to make it team against team, or a series of duels.

Good luck, and may the best team win!
cheesedingo1

Con

Dammit, Ive seen this debate for over 2 weeks. Im takin this! My names Cheesedingo1, and I accept your challenge! I am a minor comic book geek, so ill be a worthy opponent!

I presume the first round is acceptance, so ill end it here.....
Debate Round No. 1
NotTheMessiah

Pro

"LOOK MA, I'M STARTIN' A DEBATE.

Yup, it's a comic-book hero showdown between Alan Moore's Minute Men of "Watchmen" and the Umbrella Academy from the comic book of the same name by Gerard Way.

The respective line-ups are as follows:
Minute Men:
1. Edward Blake, AKA- The Comedian.
2: Dr. John Osterman, AKA-Dr. Manhattan
3: Daniel Dreiberg, AKA- Nite Owl II
4: Adrian Veidt, AKA Ozymandias.
5: Walter Joseph Kovacs, AKA- Rorschach.
6: Laurie Juspeczyk, AKA- Silk Spectre II.

Spectators who are unfamiler with this team can follow this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Umbrella Academy:

1: Luther Hargreeves, AKA- Spaceboy.
2: Diego Hargreeves, AKA- Kraken.
3: Allison Hargreeves, AKA- The Rumour.
4: Klaus Hargreeves, AKA- Seance.
5: 00.05 (Name Unknown) AKA- The Boy.
6: Vanya Hargreeves, AKA- White Violin.

Again, spectators who are unfamiliar with this team can follow the link bellow:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Since he is deceased in continuity and little is known about him, Ben Hargreeves (AKA- The Horror) is being discounted.

Basically it's an all out brawl. Due to tachyon interference and the loss of Number 5's long range time traveling capabilities, neither teams have any prior knowlege or experience of the other, they pretty much just meet in a deserted replica of earth, in a neutral, pocket dimension and told to go at it.
Note that this debate centres on the powers and abilities of the characters rather than the quality of the series themselves. Some knowlege of both teams preferred, particuarly the Minute Men, or at least be able to accsess information about both teams. My opponant should have read at least ONE of either series.

They may state their case first and can decide whether to make it team against team, or a series of duels.

Good luck, and may the best team win!

AAlrighty then viewers, we've decided via PM that the characters will battle 2 at a time.
I think the best way to do this is as follows:
1. I will pick two characters from my team, giving examples of their abilities etc.
2: My opponant will choose 2 of his OWN characters who would be able to counter mine, listing some of their abilities/feats etc.
3:He will then choose 2 more characters which *I*shall counter with 2 of my own and so on.

Each character may only be used in one round, so choose wisely.

ROUND ONE:
Diego Hargreeves AKA Kraken.
The rebellious hardcase of the group, Kraken is a formidable close range combatant, with peak human reflexes and stamina; able to walk-off a king-hit from Spaceboy that sent him hurling through a glass window and a good twenty feet away(Vol 1. Apocolypse Suite, pg 50) He is also extremely proficient with throwing- knives, being able to knock down a fleeing man with the hilt of his knife (Vol 2. Dallas, pg. 25) Later in Chapter Four, he is fast enough to almost single-handedly takes down a squad of six Viet Cong Vampires -Soldiers who specialized in guerilla warfare and were impervious to bullets (Page 123)- using only two combat knives to impale and decapitate them (Page 124). Although he's less inclined to use them, he is also capable of using firearms (Page 122) It is also believed that Kraken can hold his breath almost indefinitely, meaning most gases are ineffective on him.

Luther Hargreeves AKA Spaceboy.
Number 00.01 possesses a sharp mind, enhanced strength and durability after his head was transplanted onto the body of a martain gorilla. He has been known to tear lightpoles up from the ground (Vol 1, pg 67) and knock out the giant corpse of Emperor Gia Long with one punch (Vol 2. pg 126) His gorilla body is able to withstand the vacuum and cold of space (Vol 1,pg 24) and a greater degree of dexterity in his feet. Spaceboy also uses a jetpack to fly and usually carries a laser pistol, the power levels of which are unknown.
cheesedingo1

Con

Ok. first, Ill say my Minute Men.

1: Nite Owl II: FIrst, here's a site for him. http://watchmen.wikia.com...

Nite Owl II may not be the strongest of the Minute men, but he is overflowing with weapons and magic to make up for it. He looks like Batman (who's a bada$$). He has everything themed to his animal of choice, The OWL. He has owl shaped weapons, owl shaped costume, an owl shaped flying ship called the "Owlship", what's not cool about him? He is also very smart. He and Silk Spectre II were able to successfuly break out Rorschach from prison, and the plans and everything were his idea. He's got owl swag, he is smart, and looks like Batman. What's not to like?

2: Silk Spectre II: http://watchmen.wikia.com...

Ok, so first of all, i must point out the most obvious point on how she's awesome: She's hot. Just look..... ok, not too much, you perverts. But looks aside, she is a powerful aset to the Minute Men. She is strong (though not as strong as the others), knows karate, takes gymnastics, and has a natural high speed.


Now, ONTO MY OPPONENT:

Ill assume that this battle is in New York.

First of all, KRAKEN. He IS very strong, very tallented with knives, and is able to hold his breath for a long amount of time. Unfortunately, water isn't going to help him much, considering that very few areas of NY contain water. And, he alone would probably do more damage to his own team rather than than the Minute Men. After the break-up of the team, he still continued to fight crime, but looked down at everyone else, expecially Rumor, just because he settled down to have a family. He pulled of his mother's cloak during a funeral, which causes lots of anger towards him by his fellow members. He would cause everyone on his own team to hate him and want to kill him more than the minute men.

Now, onto SPACEBOY. He is incredibally strong and has a gorilla body, has a jetpack, and is handy with a laser pistol. Sure he's strong, and has a jetpack, but against the Owlship? He doesn't stand a chance! The Owlship will mow him over with the numerous chain guns attached to it. Easy prey.



Silk Spectre and Nite Owl are a very good combo. I chose these two because they work very well together. They bust Norsharch out of prison, and in the Watchmen movie, they save a lot of innocent people from a burning building. Pretty bada$$. Now Kraken and Spaceboy, the two my opponent picked, have an ongoing feud amongst eachother. My opponent chose poorly. Silk and Owl would beat them easily merely because of the lack of teamwork and communication that Space and Kraken would show. Spaceboy has tried to kill Kraken several times and only the fellow Umbrella members could hold him back from finishing him off. Spaceboy is also best in the air, while Kraken is best in the water. Not a good combo.

Info for the Umbrella Academy found on here: http://www.comicvine.com...

Debate Round No. 2
NotTheMessiah

Pro

First off, I'd like to once again thank cheesedingo1 for accepting this debate.
Now for some rebuttals:
1: Nite Owl (Great Spelling there Moore) DOESN'T have Magic. At least not according to A.) The Comic or B.) Your Link
2: What's not cool about him? How about his impotency?
3: Spectre is also kind of a....well I think she's probably slept with every member of the team. Except for Rorschach. Because he is way too awesome for her...
(I know these don't really have anything to do with the battle, but somtimes I just gotta Troll...)

I will admit that my opponent is right about one thing, Kraken and Spaceboy DO fight a lot, sometimes to the point of almost seriously hurting one another. But they never do. In fact, their relationship is a lot like that of Leonardo and Raphael, they fight a LOT and have almost killed each-other on a few occasions. But when the chips are down, they've got each-others backs, just like Kraken and Space. If you read the comics, you'll notice that they fight each-other when there's no-one else to focus their rage on. But once there's a common enemy, they'll put aside their differences and kick @$$. For all their constant bickering, Spaceboy, being the archetypal superhero that he is, still saves Kraken on multiple occasions such as Blasting a Terminaut about to kill the brother he was about to fry himself only minutes ago. (Apocalypse Suite, Chapter 3) When Spaceboy becomes depressed and unwilling to do anything but eat and watch TV, it's Kraken who is able to get him up and hero-ing again.

As for the fight between the two teams:
N.O. vs Spaceboy- You said that Spaceboy doesn't stand a chance against the Owlship with it's "numerous chain guns". (which, by the way are only in the Film version, but since I didn't specify that they were the limited to the comics, I can't complain) However, the Owlship - while heavily armed- is also quite bulky. Just look at the design, it's used more for patrol/intimidation etc and doesn't seem to move all that fast. Compare this two Spaceboy's jetback, which is not only powerful enough to carry his weight, but allows him to dodge energy-beams quite easily (Same Chapter) Let's also take into account the fact that Spaceboy has at LEAST twenty years worth of flying eperience, even as a kid he used some form of Anti-Gravity Belt (Vol 1, Page 17) Something as slowmoving as the Owlship (hell, even Nite Owl said he modelled it on an AIRSHIP, which is fancy talk for hot-air balloons and such) shoudln't be that difficult to outmaneuver. You said this battle was set in NYC, ergo there are many buildings, meaning that Luther can go more places that Dan can't (in between buildings etc) and could easily shake the Owlship. All he has to do then is come around behind the ship and either:
a.) Shoot it with his laser pistol.
b.) Smash it with something really heavy or
c.) Rip open the door and snap Dan like a twig.

Kraken vs Spectre- I don't see what a lack of water has to do with anything.
Laurie IS a formidable fighter and probably COULD beat Deigo hand-to-hand. Diego has an edge however (no pun intended) as his throwing proficiency gives him greater range. Yes, Laurie held her own against a gang of thugs with knives, but again, even as a child Kraken could still kill Zombie Robot Gustave Eiffel with a single blade to the head (Apocolypse Suite, Chapter 1) and has had 20+ years to train and hone his technique. As I mentioned earlier, he is still fast enough to hold his own against several "vampires" and given the special military training he no doubt recieved on top of that, Kraken will be able to use his surroundings to his advantage, vanishing into the city and striking from the shadows. All it would take is a severed Achilles tendon and she'd be done. Additionally, he could lure her into a closed off building and cause a gas leak, then all he has to do is stay out of reach (infinite breath-holding remember) and wait until she either collapses or has to get away so she can breathe.

Now to the next part of this argument: In the comments section my opponent chose Ozymandias and Dr. Manhatten as his next dynamite duo, so I shall counter with The Rumour and The Boy.

Rumour vs Dr. Manhattan:
I see my opponent wishes to use his big gun right away. Very well. Admitedly Jon is the one I'm most worried about, as the full extent of his powers are unknown. The same, however, can be said of the Rumour, whose statements become the truth, altering reality itself. It's never been stated what the scale of her power is, judging from what has been demonstrated in the comics, the potential is really high. Firstly, she's been able to influence a crowd of panicked strangers (Vol 1, Chapter 1) She is seen to be able to create doppelgangers that can function independantly and die seperately- although pressumably not possesing the same abilities. (Vol 1. BONUS STORY- But the past ain't done with you) She spontaneously created a giant living statue of John Wilkes Both armed with a functional derringer (Vol 2, page 14) and caused the head of JFK to be blown apart (pg 148.)
Again, it has never been stated just how far her power can be taken, but it's not inconceivable that she could either
a.) Erase Manhatten from existance, although there's a good chance he might be able to come back from that.
b:) Strip him of his powers and revert him back to Jon (or his corpse if you want to be pedantic) but again, he may be able to negate that
or
C.) Create a being of equal or greater power to either kill/cancel him out or at least keep him occupied for the others to come up with another plan or escape.

The Boy vs Ozymandias.
Yes, Ozymandias is the "smartest man in the world." Yes, he is at the pinnacle of human physical ability. Yes he is a world-class athlete with superior martial-art abilities. Yes, he was able to catch *A* bullet. But only just and it was a pistol fired at close range. Against an Ak-47 or a high powered sniper rifle, it's unlikely that he'd be as lucky. Despite being physically ten years old, he has literally decades of experience at his fingertips as a result of his rate of ageing being messed up because of his time-travelling abilities. The Boy is so accurate, he was able to kill anywhere between 50 and 100 agents of Temps Aeternalis (Vol 2, Page 32), making each shot count and with an AK-47 no less (Vol 2, page 49) a gun that isn't known for it's accuracy. While he can't risk going too far forward in time, he is capable of performing Microjumps foward in time, allowing him to move faster than the eye can percieve (Page 75) able to take out 3 snipers in 4.5 seconds, which he stated was not his best time. (page 86) The Boy is considered to be the best asset of Temps Aeternalis due to a combination of his natural abilities and his genetic modifications which included (and I quote) "the binding of my D.N.A to some of history's most NOTORIOUS ASSASSINS," then later says "Are you not getting this? I'll say it in plain English-- I am the perfect killer in every sense of the word-- because -- I-- AM-- EVERY-- KILLER." (Page 78) Possesing a Levitator, he is able to fly with great speed and maneuverability (34-37) and has demonstrated what us possibly enhanced strength, shown in one panel to be punching his hand through a man's head (Vol 1. Chapter 6) Ozymandias is good, but is he THAT good?

That leaves me with Seance and the White Violin...
cheesedingo1

Con

I thank my opponent for his strong rebutles.

Well then, things are going to get interesting.

For my rebutles on Nite Owl and Spectre: I apoligize for the magic reference. My sources said "TECHNICAL wizardry", and I misread it. My apoligies. And impotency?!?!?! Nite is a boss! As stated in my first argument, he looks like batman, he looks like an owl, he has a ship with chainguns that can mow down spaceboy (more on this later), he is incredibally smart, he is FAR from impotent. He is a valuable assett to the minute men. And spectre? .....ok, so maybe she probably did sleep with everyone on the minutemen team, but wouldn't she "do" Rorschach expecially because he is so awesome? And aren't you supposed to be going against my team?

Besides, sleeping with everyone helps make bonds amongst the team. :D

Those two points are the only points he attacked: impotency and sleeping with the rest of the team. I assume he agrees with the rest.


=======================================================================================
Now, onto my opponents defense on his case.

I will admit that my opponent is right about one thing, Kraken and Spaceboy DO fight a lot, sometimes to the point of almost seriously hurting one another. But they never do.

Exsqueeze me?!?!?! Of course it is to the point of seriously hurting eachother! Before the carnival, spaceboy prepares to kill kraken, and all of the rest of the UA (Umbrella Academy) had to restrain him from doing it. In this battle in NYC, the rest of the team will be occupied by the rest of the Minutemen, and nothing will hold back Spaceboy from finishing him off, and after that they will be easy prey for Silk and Spectre. And no, Raphael and Leonardo are teenage mutant ninja turtles, and could beat both the Minutemen and the UA, but that's a different debate.

Just look at the design, it's used more for patrol/intimidation etc and doesn't seem to move all that fast.

While I could find no sites saying the exact amount of speed, in the movie, when saving the people from the burning building, it was able to go at a speed of at least 40 mph in that scene. And then they traveled to Antarctica in the ship? I think it would have to go pretty darn fast to do that.

All he has to do then is come around behind the ship and either:
a.) Shoot it with his laser pistol.
b.) Smash it with something really heavy or
c.) Rip open the door and snap Dan like a twig.

Really? Try getting even close to it! The owlship is equipped with screechers, which emit a a high pitch sound that distracts people, a blower, which produces concealing fog from dry ice, and has flamethrowers, chainguns, missles, water cannons, an electrical weapon, and more machine guns. Then, there's Spaceboy, with his jetpack and ray-gun. .......Need I say more?

I don't see what a lack of water has to do with anything.

Umm.... his power is to breath under water for an unlimited amount of time? Hence the nickname "the Kraken?"

Laurie IS a formidable fighter and probably COULD beat Deigo hand-to-hand. Diego has an edge however (no pun intended) as his throwing proficiency gives him greater range.

Unfortunately, Kraken cannot grow knifes out of his belly. He will eventually run out, and as you said, Laurie will win in hand to hand combat. She will be able to dodge these shots because she has natural agility, and is a gymnast. She will be able to dodge these, and Owlship will probably mow him over with firepower as well. I'm sorry, but Archie (Nickname for the Owlship) is just too awesome.

=====================================================================================

Now, as I said, things get interesting.


This is probably the most epic battle, and I apoligize for not choosing Dr. Manhatten in the last round. But then, there would be less of a debate on it, no?

Rumor vs Dr. Manhattan:
Dr. Manhatten may not be my favorite character of the watchmen series, but there is no denying his power. He has telekenisis, clairvoyant powers, control anything with his will, clone himself, superhuman strength, and can see all of the past, present, and future. Damn, that's a lot of super powers.

Then, there's Rumor. She only has one super power: Anything she says comes true. Wow, that just kinda kills Dr. Manhattens whole enterage of powers.

This battle between these two will depend on who acts first. Now, NotTheMessiah and I would probably go back and forth continuously about who would use their powers first. Rumor could say "The minutemen will all die right NOW" and BOOM. They're dead. But, overall, Dr. Manhatten will win because he will attack first. He knows the past, present, and future, and everything that will plan out. He will use his powers immediately after entering the simulated battle ground, and crush her with his mind alone. The reasoning is for Rumor not attacking first, is that she cannot understand what is going on as fast as Dr. Manhatten. He can predict what will happen and destroy her before her even understanding what to do. And, is everything she says the truth? She can alter reality, but isn't there a limit? Dr. Manhatten has no known limit, even stated by my opponent. But Rumor divorced her husband. Couldn't she just say that her life would be happy? Couldn't she just say that her and her husband would live happy together? I haven't read the Umbrella Academy, so correct me if i'm wrong, NotTheMessiah. Also, with his ways for Rumor to Defeat Dr. Manhatten, he himself admitted that Manhatten could come back from the first two, and for the 3rd one, the Umbrella academy would try to retreat. Therefor, my opponent admits that Dr. Manhatten can come back from any circumstance.

Now, the less cool but still interesting battle,

The Boy vs Ozymandias

The boy can travel through time, and is trained with an AK-47, and never ages. Ozymandias is the smartest being alive (probably smarter than Dr. Manhatten), he is very strong, and can catch bullets. Doesn't matter if it was only one bullet at close range, HE STILL CAUGTH IT. While an AK-47 has more than one bullet and is more powerful than a pistol, Ozymandias is the smartest person alive. He will find a way to beat the Boy. Dr. Manhatten foresaw it. o.0 ( I would have more for this, but i'm running out of characters and i need room for my attacks on NotTheMessiah's last two guys.)

The Seance: Wow. Talk about a mini Dr. Manhatten. He has telekenisis, can talk to the dead, can project himself through TV's, and can come back from the dead, because God doesn't really like him(laughs). But, alas, HE HAS A WEAKNESS.
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SHOES.
Yes, mere peices of leather or cloth limits his power. So, if someone like Manhatten makes shoes appear onto his feet, or Rorscharch forces him to with his awesomeness, Seance will be no more. If shoes do not happen, the MinuteMen will win by favor of God. My opponent cannot argue that God doesn't play favorites or like anyone less, because look at poor Seance. And for the reincarnation thing, Dr. Manhatten will find a way to defeat him, or at least lock him away so that he may not become a neusance.


White Violin. Power: Has destructive notes. Although, at first she knew nothing of her powers. This is key in this argument, because of Manhattens powers he may be able to go back in time to destroy her before her realization of potential. And also, she has tried to kill her siblings of the academy several times. This, again goes to my argument on the non-cooprative and argumentative ways of the academy, and how that will cause conflict.


By the way, I wish my opponent to not just include his argument in this, but a battle with Horror and Rorscharch. I have to say, they are by far the coolest of each team and I request a battle. But you will have 1 extra character. So, for a scenario, Rorcharch will battle twice, but have full power and energy in both battles and neither of the outcomes affect the other battle in any way.

Debate Round No. 3
NotTheMessiah

Pro

Oh where to start...

To begin with, I'd like to point out that Cheesedingo1 has apparently forgotten several of the parameters agreed upon for this match.
1: We agreed that this battle would occur as a series of two-on-two duels with each character being used only ONCE. As we've already established, Manhattan is fighting The Rumour/The Boy and therefore CANNOT interfere with the Seance.
2: If you recall, the planet (set in neither universe) is surrounded by tachyons, which BLOCK his ability to know "the past, present, and future, and everything that will plan out" (Funny I seem to recall arguing with someone else on this site about this)
3: The whole premise of this debate, is an unplanned, unforseen, slugfest (in the form of duels) between 12 characters and 12 characters only. The Horror will not be used as there isn't enough revealed about him to be useful to me in this debate. Rorschach will NOT be used twice. Finally there can be NO outside interference, especially from God. As this is a FICTIONAL scenario with FICTIONAL characters, I seriously doubt God is going to worry about this sorta thing.
4: My opponant has neglected to include The Comedian in his rebuttal. You might want to address that.
5: His argument comment regarding Leonardo and Raphael makes no sense and he has obviously missed the point of the analogy.
6: Dan actually CAN'T "get it up" unless he's in his NiteOwl suit. Seriously, read the comic. That is really sad and kinda creepy. If he were as awesome as Batman, not only would he be able to "get it up" at the drop of her pants, he would be able to do it multiple times. (Read Batman:The Widening Gyre.)
7: Obviously my opponent doesn't watch much TV, many movies or Avengers comics. People sleeping around doesn't cause team bonding, it just makes things awkward and tense between them. Like when Green Arrow slept with Black Canary (Don't remember the issue, but it was shortly after he came back from the dead) Hawkman loses his birdseed and tries to smash Ollie's head in with the mace. And Carter and Dinah weren't even seeing eachother.
8: The reason I attacked TWO points was due to the 8,000 character limit. Plus, they're kinda prominent flaws of the characters you seem to adore.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'd like to draw the attention of our dear readers back to the Spaceboy/Kraken teamup. My opponant said:

"the rest of the team will be occupied by the rest of the Minutemen, and nothing will hold back Spaceboy from finishing him off."

I must apologize as I do tend to ramble and clump my text together, as my opponant OBVIOUSLY couldn't finish reading my long-winded argument.
00.01 and 00.02 ONLY fight when there ISN'T an enemy around. HINT: That would be NiteOwl and Spectre ;)

Ultimately, when push comes to shove (like the TMNT) they have eachother's backs. (Remember the whole saving eacthothers live's thing?)

You wanna talk about dysfunctional teams? [SPOLERS ABOUND] Ozymandias KILLED The Comedian. Manhattan KILLED Kovacs. How many fatalities due to in-team fighting does the Umbrella Academy Have? Zero.

Back to the Jetpack vs Owlship: Remember how this battle is set in New York CITY. Now I've never been myself, but it's my understanding that there are a LOT of buildings in New York. Many of them are clumped quite close together. Please see my previous argument regarding maneuverability.

And yes, while Archie IS heavily armed, that doesn't automatically guarantee the victory. Do yourself a favor and go watch Star Wars: A New Hope. Notice how the smaller, faster X-Wings are able to destory the MASSIVE Deathstar, despite being outgunned. As for the weapons themselves:

Screechers- Granted, MIGHT disorient Space, but the guy's been around so many explosions, loud noises probably don't even phase him. Or if he flies above them, their effect will be diminished.

Blower: I'm taking the high road. I could be so crude about this. Besides, what's Dry Ice gonna do to a guy who can withstand the lack of temperature IN SPACE (thought to be somewhere around the -270 C mark, a good 200 LESS than Dry Ice)

Flamethrowers: Short range. I think Space is smart enough to NOT go near fire, assuming he ISN'T impervious.

Water Cannons: The guy can knock down the Eiffel Tower. I don't think a bit of water is gonna do more than make him smell funny.

Missiles/Chainguns: Missiles can be dodged, especially by someone who can dodge lasers. Chainguns do NOT have unlimited ammo. All Space has to do is dodge and weave between the numerous buildings until Dan runs dry.

Plus, look at Archie, he has so many blind spots it's not funny. Space can easily take down the Owlship from behind before it can turn. All it would take is a lampost jammed into a turbine.

Back to Kraken:
The ability to hold his breath forever isn't limited to underwater. Otherwise, why not just give him gills? That would make him almost impossible to choke out. Given in my previous arguments how quick and accurate Kraken is with his knives, Laurie will be lucky to even SEE the knife coming before she gets stuck like bloated catapillar.

KRAKEN HAS GUERILLA WARFARE under his belt. As if he WOULDN'T just hide and slash her throat when she walks past. He took out at least five VC Vampires, close quaters and Simultaneously. THAT is how good he is. And I said she MIGHT beat him in unarmed combat, but seeing as he won't be unarmed, it won't be a problem.

Plus NYC has the Hudson and the East Rivers. Rivers are made of WATER.

Rumour:
[Spoilers] Rumour DID go through a divorce. It probaby messed her up, but it doesn't matter in the long run, because she's really in love with Luther (Vol 2, pg 152) Seriously dude. Read the comics. Also she's one of the good guys. Good guys don't FORCE people to love them.

I also said that we DON'T KNOW her limits either. And just because Manhattan COULD come back, doesn't mean that he WILL.

The Boy:
Tell you what. Why don't you go try catching a bullet with your bare hands. Even if by some fluke you DO manage this, then try with a whole clip at 600 rounds per minute from ALL DIRECTIONS AT ONCE (Remember the greatly enhanced speed) Veidt's plan worked because he'd been planning it for a few years.

With the kid's combined speed, strength, experience, flight abiities and total accuracy, Ozy will be down in seconds, if he's lucky. Remember, there's no prep time in this battle and Adrian has NEVER encountered someone like this. Is grasping at straws an Olympic event now? You'd do well my friend.

SEANCE:

Like you said, he's a 'mini-Dr. Manhattan' where as The Comedian/Rorshach are mere humans. Coincidentally, the ones that died. Here's a taste of some of the fun, fun, FUN ways he could kill either of the Dunderheaded Duo.

Flight: He just has to pick one up, fly quite high and drop them on their heads.

Telekinesis: The Seance can halt a Forty Thousand ton Rock (Vol One: Chapter Six) I'd say Eddie and Walt weigh significantly less than that. Can anyone say "Into Orbit?" Or he could beat them to death with a building. I doubt he WOULDN'T be able to stop bullets.

Possesion: Read the Comic. Hazel and Cha-Cha are even more messed up than Eddie and Walt (they freaked out The Boy) and he was still able to posess Cha-Cha and force him to commit suicide. (Vol 2, page 98)

Shoes: The only reason H&CC figured this out was their inside information from Temps Aeternalis and there's no way either E or W could get that information.

Vanya:
Her notes are powerful enough to cut people in half with a single note (Vol 1, Ch 4) or shatter ALL the windows of the mansion just by plucking a string or cut through solid stone. (Ch5) Neither man has a defense against that. They might be able to dodge the initial attack (doubtful, as neither would have ANY idea) but their luck wouldn't hold out.

I'd like to say more, but I'm just about out of characters.

SO REMEMBER: A VOTE FOR PRO IS A VOTE FOR LOGIC, REASON AND MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE!!!

NTM OUT!
cheesedingo1

Con

cheesedingo1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
58 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by NotTheMessiah 4 years ago
NotTheMessiah
Hey Guys, NTM here, just letting you know that I've FINALLY put up a new debate:

http://www.debate.org...

Feel free to swing by and check it out...
Posted by cheesedingo1 5 years ago
cheesedingo1
Do more debates! BTW, you know you can do more than one debate at a time.... And thank you for the praise! Your first debate with 3000 whole views! Nice job, bro!
Posted by NotTheMessiah 5 years ago
NotTheMessiah
YOU LIKE ME! YOU REALLY LIKE ME!!
Wow, my first debate! I'm not gonna lie though, could have gone either way and if it hadn't been for cheesedingo1 having to forfeit due to events beyond control, the victory could have been his. I'd like to thank everyone who voted for me, everyone who showed interest in this debate and I'd ESPECIALLY like to think my worthy opponant cheesedingo1, who certainly gave me a run for my money. Well done to you sir!

Now the question remains: What now?
Posted by NotTheMessiah 5 years ago
NotTheMessiah
I'm ashamed to say that I did get a bit fired up during that round (I keep forgetting that the "Superiority" of Watchmen is a touchy subject for me.) although it was less an attack on you and more of a rather aggressive plug for Gabriel Ba's fantastic series (Seriously, try and read it)
I'm even more ashamed to admit that if I were TRUELY pi$$ed off, I would have included a lot more insults and references about your parentage. I do apologize if I came off as abrasive and thank you for accepting this debate in the first place...
Posted by cheesedingo1 5 years ago
cheesedingo1
OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGO sh!t sh!t Sh1t sh!t sh!t! I woke up and I was late by 5 fvcking minutes!!!! FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!
Posted by cheesedingo1 5 years ago
cheesedingo1
wow. you seemed kind of pi$$ed off this round. I just wanted to make things a bit more interesting, I thought Horror was cool, and to have the 2 coolest people battle eachother as an extra side battle would be cool.
Posted by cheesedingo1 5 years ago
cheesedingo1
oh, it's gonna get good. Rumor and Dr. Manhatten is going to be the best battle.
Posted by harmurph1 5 years ago
harmurph1
Great debate guys. Very interested to see what happens next
Posted by NotTheMessiah 5 years ago
NotTheMessiah
Thanks, although I think 500 of them are mine :P
Posted by cheesedingo1 5 years ago
cheesedingo1
bro, im impressed. over 2000 views on your first debate?!?!?! Congrats, man.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
NotTheMessiahcheesedingo1Tied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: FF args later