The Instigator
draxxt
Pro (for)
Losing
10 Points
The Contender
HadenQuinlan
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

The United States Of America Was Not Founded On Christian Principles.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/7/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,917 times Debate No: 3552
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (9)

 

draxxt

Pro

The Constitution is, in no way, Specifically based upon Christian values. Christian is reffered to as anything within the Catholic/Protestant churches and therefore, are limited to the teaches hence. In the following two contentions I will attempt to Prove that The USA was not founded on Christian Principles.
1> There is a difference between basic human morals and Christian Principles.
A)Anyone can have the basic influence of fear when it comes to something immoral or indecent and is given through consequence. Therefore, to say that Christian Principles are involved when laws have been set in writing about things such as killing or stealing since Hamurabi's time is illogical.
B> Human morals are often set in place due to what society is contributing and are irreligiously set unles set about within a Christian home.
2> The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.

A)This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments.

B)Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
C)Thomas Paine once wrote in "The age of Reason", "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

Therefore, I amend to you that, through preexisting morals and the lack of Christian Founding Fathers, America was not Founded on Christian Principles.
HadenQuinlan

Con

First off, I'd like to thank Draxxt for challenging me to debate.

Secondly, it should be mentioned that Christian Principles do not just mean doctrines explicitly stated in the Bible, Christian Principles ALSO include the principle of equality and other things which are staples of Christian Life - regardless of their existence (or nonexistence) within the Bible.

As I am Con in this debate, what I will do is use his own points to create my own, so my structure to this debate may be a little weird. Basically, what I'm going to do is refute his points and use my refutations as points of my own. Let's get started.

1> "Anyone can have the basic influence of fear when it comes to something immoral or indecent and is given through consequence. Therefore, to say that Christian Principles are involved when laws have been set in writing about things such as killing or stealing since Hamurabi's time is illogical."

What my opponent is trying to pinpoint here, is the statement, "Inherent human traits are not Christian Morals". This assumption is based off the logic that Christianity can not coexist with inherent human morals. On the contrary, we see that Christian principles are based largely off of inherent human morals. So, we see that if a law is based off of Christian Principles it can ALSO be based off of inherent human traits. The laws that were set in place fall in line with both Christian Doctrine as well as human nature, and therefore the United States WAS based upon Christian Principles, because the principles that it were based upon fall in line with the principles of Christianity.

So - I challenge my opponent, as burden of proof lies with the Pro, to list laws that are directly contradictory to Christian Principles. In the mean time, I'll list several laws that are IN LINE with Christian Values:

Let's look at the first Amendment, and namely to religious tolerance (http://www.religioustolerance.org...):

Micah 4:3-5 "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hat spoken it. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever."

1 Corinthians 10:31-32 "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:"

Luke 9:52-56: "...they did not receive him...And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

As I mentioned above, there are many principles evident throughout both the Bible, and Christian Life which count as Christian Principles. One of these principles is the idea of fair justice. This principle is so large throughout our constitution I don't feel as if I need to give the ways, but I will anyways:

"Article the eighth ... In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed,"

You see fairness being executed because the court decision lies not with biased judges, but with an impartial jury of neighbors who are basing their verdict off of the evidence presented, not self-opinion. This shows that fairness is enacted because the convicted persons are judged fairly and impartially.

"Article the tenth ..... Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

Fairness is also executed here, because it prevents torture from being inflicted upon citizens who have committed a crime. This is directly in line with scripture:

"...they did not receive him...And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."

Jesus refuses to smite a man cruelly for a crime inflicted upon himself, as you can see this piece of scripture is largely evident in the 8th amendment.

Also, there are many state laws imposed which are in line with the ten commandments:

Homocide - "Thou shalt not kill"
Theft - "Thou shalt not steal"

As you can see, many, many Christian Principles are evident throughout the early lawcodes.

The point needs to be made, that there are many laws that do not contradict / benefit Christian Morals. Whether or not these laws are in place is irrelevant, because they are not contradictory to Christian Values. As you can see, a large undertone to the laws, regulations and statures put in place by our founding government were largely influenced by Christian Principles.

2> The only example my opponent has given to support this case is the example of Thomas Paine, which is well and good, however I can give much more supporting Christian morals. (http://www.eadshome.com...)

John Adams and John Hancock:
"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!" [April 18, 1775]

Samuel Adams:
"He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… _Our forefathers_ opened the Bible to all"

Benjamin Franklin:
"God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

Thomas Jefferson:
"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus."

James Madison:
"We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart"

Thomas Paine(So much for atheist?):
"It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author"

George Washington:
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible"

All these people combined fueled the beginning of our country, decidedly MORE SO than a single quote from Thomas Paine, which contradicts the quote I have provided. This insurmountable evidence supporting the faith of the Founding Fathers shows that the United States was founded upon Christian Principles.

To my own points, which I will list here (without evidence, please use the refutations above due to word restrictions).

1) The United States was founded upon Christian Principles because Christian Principles are largely evident throughout many different and diverse laws.
2) The United States was founded upon Christian Principles because the men who wrote, supported and passed these laws were Christian, therefore you can clearly see that their faith influenced the laws and statures they passed.

These two contentions alone, paired with the piles of quotes and evidence presented above can only lead you to the logical conclusion that the United States was founded upon Christian Principles, and therefore you must vote Con.
Debate Round No. 1
draxxt

Pro

I concede as my opponent will end up winning. As he said, not in his previous argument but in private, He will win because he has more sources. Both of our cases are stupid. I just hope that our next debate will be a better one. I am sorry, anyone who has wasted their time on this debate.
HadenQuinlan

Con

Thanks for conceding, despite the fact that I really would like to continue this debate.

As my opponent has said, I have much more sources, and his entire case is contingent upon these sources (which he hadn't provided), at this point your only choice is to vote Con.

Thanks to my opponent for an interesting debate!
Debate Round No. 2
draxxt

Pro

I'm sorry if I wasted anyone's time with this. As for you, Haden, I still have much to learn and I hope you'd teach it to me.
HadenQuinlan

Con

As I said before, my opponent has conceded therefore there is no debate and I had already won by round 2. I'd like to extend all my points throughout the debate, and urge you, the noble judges, to vote Con.

Thanks!
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by draxxt 8 years ago
draxxt
I know, I am getting better at debate. Check out my second debate with pro. Thanks.
Posted by Geekis_Khan 8 years ago
Geekis_Khan
PRO could've won easily. The entire idea is based off of whether the US was FOUNDED on Christian values.

Proving that certain American laws fall in line with Christian values does not prove that this is what inspired the laws.
Posted by Lenfent 8 years ago
Lenfent
Pro could have totally won if he'd put as much effort into it as Con.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
A quick question by the way Xsacamado. How can you call yourself a capitalist with a straight face when you are in favor of government racism (affirmative action), in favor of government confiscation and redistribution of property (welfare, social security, "social programs," medicaid, medicare, national health care)? The only thing capitalist about you seems to be that you haven't figured out how you want to pay for all this ( you are against every tax listed).
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Why did Jefferson reference "rights endowed by a Creator if he was such an agnostic? :D
From what I've read most of them were deists, although Ben Franklin was on the fun end of it, a visiting non-member of the Hellfire club (which influenced modern satanism, it was basically a place to get drunk, have orgies, and bash Christianity).
Posted by XsamacadoX 8 years ago
XsamacadoX
lol. george washington was an atheist. so was benjaman franklin and jefferson. adams (both of them) were agnostic. its fairly obvious.
Posted by HadenQuinlan 8 years ago
HadenQuinlan
Logic, I don't enjoy debates of sources - however by instituting such source-based contentions I had to dredge up some research and use them against him.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
So what if he has more sources? You could stil win this debate with logic. Oh well.
Posted by HadenQuinlan 8 years ago
HadenQuinlan
That would mean that you're talking to yourself.

=/

It's more of a joke than anything else.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
But nietzsche, according to your profile you don't exist and therefore aren't debating anything here :D
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