The Instigator
mentalist
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
DCPolitical
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

The United States and Confederaflag are both symbols of slavery...

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
DCPolitical
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/23/2015 Category: Education
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 858 times Debate No: 76855
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

mentalist

Pro

The United States and Confederaflag are both symbols of slavery and saying the Confederate flag being flown in South Carolina was responsible for the reported shooting in Charleston is an attempt to avoid the larger issues regarding the current racism in the modern United States. The United States flag is not a symbol of abolition of slavery, in that the Emancipation Proclamation did not end slavery in the US. The Emancipation Proclamation only addressed Confederate states in rebellion and allowed for slavery to continue in several existing states in the U.S.. Furthermore, as Lincoln was admittedly not an abolitionist and did not consider so called "blacks' to be equal to so called 'whites', the US has no ability to pass judgment on the Confederacy. As racism continues to be a plague in the United States, the recent news coverage regarding the shooting in Charleston is a poor attempt to divert attention away from the US's shortcomings in dealing with its own racist practices in the modern era. shared BOP Opponent must prove that the US flag is not a symbol of slavery. They must also illustrate how the flying of the Confederate flag is relevant to the Charleston shooting and not an attempt to distract the mass' attention from the racist environment that currently exist in the US.
DCPolitical

Con

The United States flag is a symbol of freedom and liberty. The flag in no way, shape, or form symbolizes nor glorifies the gross oppression of individuals and groups based on race, color, religion and other fields for any reason whatsoever. The US can and always will be the melting pot.

The US flag has never symbolized slavery for many reasons. Although a lot of US history incorporated the use of slavery, the US flag never symbolized it and the Confederate States had their own flag.

Slavery was inexcusable. There is no excuse for such an inhumane practice. Slavery was a part of the US from its inception until the abolition of slavery in the 1860's, although border states were allowed the practice for around 20 more years.

The values of the US flag are highly opposed to such inhumanity. The US flag was designed to represent "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"[1]. Our government fully supports this ideology. Also, "the colors of the pales (the vertical stripes) are those used in the flag of the United States of America; White signifies purity and innocence, Red, hardiness & valor, and Blue, the color of the Chief (the broad band above the stripes) signifies vigilance, perseverance & justice"[2]. These are both pieces of irrefutable evidence that shows the true intent of what the US flag was designed to represent. This flag represents us as a nation, and we as a nation support these ideologies.

The Confederacy was completely separate from the US. They became their own country, the Confederate States of America. In no way can the Union be held accountable for what occurred under the confederacy. The confederate states seceded from the Union in an attempt to uphold their "right" to own slaves and be free from federal persecution. Abraham Lincoln, an open abolitionist, passed the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1st, 1863 which ruled that "all persons held as slaves" in the confederacy "are, and henceforth shall be free"[3]. Abraham Lincoln passed this without any pressure from any individual nor organization. Lincoln could have chosen to be indifferent on the issue or support it, but chose to start a civil war over it. Abraham Lincoln heavily supported abolition and the US has every right to pass judgement on the disgusting organization that was the Confederacy.

The confederate flag is a symbol of racial hatred because it was designed specifically for a former country that separated from the union so they could continue without persecution the human rights violation which was slavery. Dylann Roof, the murderer convicted of the Charleston shooting, was seen not only burning the US flag (which stands for racial equality) but also posing with a car with confederate plates[4]. If you watch CNN's video, "How did the Charleston shooter become radicalized?"[5] and read the article, you will see Roof posing with the confederate flag and how the confederate ideology (what the confederate flag stands for) played a role in his radical views in the name of which he committed this terrible and disgusting act.

The flying of the confederate flag is not an attempt to distract the mass attention from the racist environment that currently exists in the US because it stands for the US' racist environment. The confederate flag stands for racism and the confederacy. The confederate flag supports a racist organization. How on earth would that steer people away from these issues?

[1] http://www.ushistory.org...
[2] http://usflag.org...
[3] http://www.emancipationproclamation.org...
[4] http://www.nytimes.com...
[5] http://www.cnn.com...
Debate Round No. 1
mentalist

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting the debate and responding in such an expedient and concise manner.

My opponent suggests that the US will Always be the melting pot. A brief examination of the country's origins easily disproves this assertion. The creators of the Constitution both owned slaves and subjugated women when the document was created. The document considers all men to be created equal while peculiarly omitting or avoiding the fact that they supported slavery and owned slaves. In fact, these slaves were considered to be 3/5 of human beings at the time. As we know, these slaves and women were not given the same unalienable rights at the time of the signing of the Constitution. The gov't did not fully support the ideology of unalienable rights for women and 'non-white' members of society until 1920 and 1870 respectively. With that being said, jim crow and various other dubious practices such as gerrymandering kept and keep many melaninated peoples in the U.S. from exercising their right to vote.

The dehumanizing portrayal of chattel slaves in the United States still taints the perception of a large number of people in the U.S. in regards to their view of melaninated peoples. To be clear, race is a false social construct that was and is used to foster the class conscious agenda that supports the wealthy elite's plan for population control. As such, racism keeps the masses divided and arguing over trivial stereotypes and illusions. It is my opponent's form of revisionist history that retards any progress that can be made toward healing wounds from the past.

My opponent states that " In no way can the Union be held accountable for what occurred under the confederacy." I would agree. My declaration clearly asserts that both the United States and Confederate flags (excuse the typo) are symbols of slavery. My opponent also acknowledges that the Emancipation Proclamation only sought to free slaves in the Confederacy, however, he errs in his assertion that Lincoln was in favor of abolition. As quoted in the article "5 Things You May Not Know About Lincoln, Slavery and Emancipation" by Sarah Pruitt Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust. [1] This illustrates how Lincoln put limits on the freedoms and their 'unalienable rights'. In fact, Lincoln could be viewed as a separatist. He once stated, "Given the “differences” between the two races and the hostile attitudes of whites towards blacks...it would be “better for us both, therefore, to be separated.” [1]
In fact, Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation as more of a military maneuver than a moral stance. The Emancipation did not truly free any slaves.

"...the US has every right to pass judgement on the disgusting organization that was the Confederacy."
Again, I must disagree. On what grounds does the US stand and pass judgment? Were (and some would argue are) social, industrial, religious, educational, and governmental institutions segregated and biased in the US as they were in the Confederacy. Are and were melaninated and indigenous people racially profiled, harassed, lynched, marginalized and outright murdered (i.e.Tamir Rice (12), Michael Brown (18),Eric Garner (43), Trayvon Martin (17)...to name a few [2]) by citizens and officers in the US as they were by citizens and overseers in the Confederacy? Sadly, we all know the answers to these questions is a resounding yes! To this very day the United States has yet to truly deal with its history of racist practices, the accumulation of wealth derived from free labor, or its current racist paradigm. I challenge my opponent to dispute the existence of institutional racism presently practiced in the U.S..

"Dylann Roof, the murderer convicted of the Charleston shooting was seen not only burning the US flag...posing with a car with confederate plates...posing with the confederate flag...confederate ideology...played a role in his radical views in the name of which he committed this terrible and disgusting act."
Firstly, burning the US flag is protected by the Constitution. I do not profess to know what was in the mind of the accused murderer. It is clear, to me, that someone would have to be raised in hate to committ such a heinous act. Did the Confederate ideology play a part in forming the twisted and sordid psyche of the shooter? I would suppose it did. However to isolate that ideology as the reason for his tirade is a feeble attempt to ignore or avoid discussing the glaring reality of institutional and systemic racism that is prevalent in the United States.
Roof is also alleged to have worn a jacket with badges that illustrate the flags of South Africa and Rhodesia during apartheid. As stated in the article "Dylann Roof shares apartheid's ideology" by Max Dupreez, "apartheid was an extremely violent ideology and state policy. It robbed millions of people over generations of their dignity; it tried to convince them and their children that they were inferior to whites; it destroyed their families and societal structures through forced removals, pass laws and migrant labour; it stole black people’s land and made sure they couldn’t take their rightful place in the economy. And when they protested, they were detained, tortured, sometimes killed.In short: at the heart of apartheid was the belief that a black life was worth less than a white life. Dylann Roof believes that too."[3] Racism is a global virus that uses divide and conquer to maintain population control. The practices cited by Du Preez regarding apartheid can be ascribed to the Confederacy of the past and the United States of the present.

"The flying of the confederate flag is not an attempt to distract the mass attention from the racist environment that currently exists in the US because it stands for the US' racist environment."
This statement seems to suggest that racism and racist practices were limited to the Confederacy or southern states. This is false. While racism has historically been more overt and prevalent in the South, the aforementioned incidents of racial violence prove that racism is a national disease in the current socio-political and economic paradigm in the U.S..


The confederate flag stands for racism and the confederacy. The confederate flag supports a racist organization. How on earth would that steer people away from these issues?"
Again, it is not the flying of the Confederate flag, or indeed, its removal that steers people away from the existence and prevalence of racism that can be observed in the United States today. It is the attempt by the media, politicians, etc. to suggest that the Confederate flag or confederate ideology is the origin and source of the racist atmosphere that permeates throughout the United States. In other words, with or without the Confederate flag, the shooter and other racists would be able to find an ample supply of racist ideology to pollute and corrupt their pscyches and souls in the current atmosphere of the U.S.. Roof is alleged to have said "I wanted to kill 'black' people because they were taking 'our' jobs and raping 'our' women. Somehow, I find it hard to believe that when he said 'our' he was referring to the Confederacy.

The news did not even mention racism in the first reports that were released. Once pressured to mention race, they used the Confederate angle as a means to make racism seem like a thing of the past.



http://www.history.com... [1]
http://gawker.com... [2]
http://www.news24.com... [3]
DCPolitical

Con

My opponent refutes my saying that the US has been and will always be the melting pot. To support this, my opponent says " A brief examination of the country's origins easily disproves this assertion." If you look at Ellis Island, millions of immigrants came into the US from there. The US most definitely is the melting pot because "it has been estimated that close to 40 percent of all current U.S. citizens can trace at least one of their ancestors to Ellis Island"[1]. Also, my opponent offers insight about Jim Crow Laws and gerrymandering however fails to connect it to the topic being debated, that the US flag stands for slavery and that the confederate flag had influence in Dylann Roof's actions.

My opponent also states that "race is a false social construct that was and is used to foster the class conscious agenda that supports the wealthy elite's plan for population control". I see no evidence to support that assertion. Furthermore he states that "[i]t is my opponent's form of revisionist history that retards any progress that can be made toward healing wounds from the past", an ad hominem statement attacking my character to disregard my argument.

My opponent acknowledges that the Union cannot be held accountable for what occurred under the confederacy, which flew a different flag than the Union, yet still asserts that the Union's flag supports slavery. My opponent continues the thought by stating that Abraham Lincoln was "not, nor ever [has] been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races" which is blatantly false. In fact, Lincoln was an outspoken abolitionist. On October 7th, 1858 in the Fifth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Galesburg, Illinois, Abraham Lincoln asserted that slavery was against American principles and claimed that "all men were created equal" applied to them just as much as to whites. Lincoln also "vigorously supported the 13th Amendment which abolished slavery throughout the United States, and, in the last speech of his life, he recommended extending the vote to African Americans"[2]. My opponent also uses the red herring fallacy to divert attention from the topic being debated, whether the US flag represents slavery, to Lincoln's personal beliefs which aren't even true. My opponent then goes on to say "[t]he Emancipation did not truly free any slaves" which is false, as I quote it saying that all slaves in the confederacy "are, and henceforth shall be free"[3].

Next, my opponent refutes my statement that "...the US has every right to pass judgement on the disgusting organization that was the Confederacy" by asserting that "social, industrial, religious, educational, and governmental institutions segregated and biased in the US as they were in the Confederacy". He also states that "[t]o this very day the United States has yet to truly deal with its history of racist practices, the accumulation of wealth derived from free labor, or its current racist paradigm." This is to refute my argument that the US flag does not represent slavery. My opponent uses the Guilt by Association fallacy by associating Americans and supporters of the American flag to "overseers in the Confederacy". One cannot accurately depict the American people as confederates. My opponent's argument is fallacious. He then prompts me to debate a new topic, the existence of institutional racism in the US, using the red herring fallacy to divert attention from the topic being debated.

My opponent also qualifies my argument that the confederate flag, the one and only symbol of confederate ideology played a role in Roof's shooting in saying "[d]id the Confederate ideology play a part in forming the twisted and sordid psyche of the shooter? I would suppose it did", so seeing as my opponent changed his mind and supports my stance on the topic being debated, I see no need to continue arguing that topic. However, my opponent continues to argue this topic, speaking about South Africa's former policies which do not correlate to present day America as neither does the Confederacy.

It is said by my opponent that "with or without the Confederate flag, the shooter and other racists would be able to find an ample supply of racist ideology to pollute and corrupt their pscyches and souls in the current atmosphere of the U.S.." The topic being debated is that the Confederate flag "is relevant to the Charleston shooting". As pointed out in my previous sources, Roof is an avid supporter of the confederate ideology, has confederate plates on his car, poses in pictures with the confederate flag, and burns the US flag which supports that "all men are created equal". My opponent is using the red herring fallacy again to divert attention from the original issue.

Lastly, my opponent concludes with "[t]he news did not even mention racism in the first reports that were released. Once pressured to mention race, they used the Confederate angle as a means to make racism seem like a thing of the past". I posted a link to CNN's articles and videos about the case in my previous sources. Every single article and video labelled it as a racist attack, which it was. The confederate flag represents confederate ideology. As Roof was an avid supporter of confederate ideology, it would make sense to include that. They were labeling confederacy a thing of the past, which it is. It is far more taboo to see a radical confederate since that is a thing of the past and directly against the American principle that "all men are created equal", for which both the flag and the citizens of this country stand.

[1] http://www.history.com...
[2] http://www.nps.gov...
[3] http://www.emancipationproclamation.org...
Debate Round No. 2
mentalist

Pro

My opponent attempts to support his claim of the U.S. having been and continuing "in perpetuity mind you" to be a melting pot by skipping the founding and origins of the U.S and many of its hypocritical and dubious tactics. (i.e. slavery, chauvinism, selective immigration, etc.) I will attempt to present a more balanced portrayal of what my opponent calls the melting pot. As my opponent has chosen to ignore almost 120 years of U.S. history and jump to Ellis Island, let us tackle this red herring first. I will take my opponent's ommission of this time period as an admission that the U.S. was not a 'melting pot' during these years. The article "Ellis Island’s Doubled-Edged Legacy" by The most effective weapon Anglo-Saxon elites have used to preserve power in American society has been the rule of law. And, as Bayor constantly reminds us, there has been a great deal of racial legislation in the history of the U.S.....The 1882 Chinese Exclusion Act prevented Chinese immigrants from entering the U.S. The 1891 Immigration Act declared certain classes of individuals as unfit to become American citizens. And in 1917, Congress passed a law requiring all immigrants over the age of 16 to pass a literacy test to gain entry into the United States....But the most racially motivated law of all, Bayor points out, was passed in 1924. The National Origins Act set a limit of 150,000 immigrant visas per year. Seventy percent of these went to British, Irish, and Germans. Italians, Poles, and Russians received just 10 percent....These laws took their cue from western science, which at the time held sacred the views of social Darwinism and eugenics to be sacred. The message was clear: Western and Northern Europeans were superior to all other races and ethnicities. Quota Laws, and the National Origins Act were created to keep certain groups of people from entering the U.S.. These restrictions were based upon a percentage system according to the number of ethnic groups already living in the United States as per the 1890 and 1910 Census.Bacon's Rebellion is an event which begins to redefine notions of race on the North American continent, or at least in the Chesapeake region...Before Bacon's Rebellion we certainly have distinctions made between blacks and whites, and we certainly have attitudes on the part of whites and presumably on the part of blacks where they differentiate themselves and where they probably think each is superior to the other...Nonetheless, we see them behaving pretty much the same way. Some numbers of people of African descent have moved into the land owning class, are sometimes owning the servants, are connected with churches, are by CinemaP-1.1c" href="http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-02-08.htm#79231658"> cognizant of the legal system and so on...And of course substantial numbers of people of European descent are caught in a system of coerced labor called indentured servitude. And indentured servants, whether they are black or white, are pretty much treated the same way as slaves. Very badly...Bacon's Rebellion changes that, and what seems to be crucial in changing that is the consolidation after Bacon's Rebellion of a planter class. The planters had not been able to control this rowdy labor force of servants and slaves. But soon after Bacon's Rebellion they increasingly distinguish between people of African descent and people of European descent. They enact laws which say that people of African descent are hereditary slaves. And they increasingly give some power to white independent white farmers and land holders...That increased power is not equality. Dirt farmers are not elected to the House of Burgess in Virginia; the planters monopolize those offices. But they do participate in the political system. In other words we see slavery and freedom being invented at the same moment.
DCPolitical

Con

I thank my opponent for his argument, yet very little actually had to do with the topics being debated. We are debating that the U.S. flag does not represent slavery and that the Confederate flag was relevant to the Charleston shooting. The majority of my opponents argument is a red herring, as almost none of it has to do with what specifically we are debating. My opponent also uses ad hominem to disregard my argument by saying "I believe my opponents revisionist view of history will be glaringly obvious to the reader by the end of this debate." I will only argue the topics being debated so my argument here will be shorter.

I appreciate my opponent bringing up the fact that the Union once held slaves, as it is a valid reason to question our nations flag. However, I must declare that slavery is illegal and slavery goes against the most basic American principles. We as a nation do not stand for slavery[1]. Also, the current flag of 50 stars never underwent slavery, so the current flag couldn't represent it.

As for my "distortions":

Lincoln was a Unionist greatly opposed to the idea of slavery.

Our flag doesn't represent slavery because slavery goes against the most basic American principles, that "all men are created equal" and we all have the rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", which Lincoln successfully proved.

We are debating whether "the U.S. flag" is or isn't "a symbol of slavery" and whether or not the "confederate flag is relevant to the Charleston shooting". Though I agree with you that racism still exists, most of your argument had nothing to do with the U.S. flag representing slavery nor the Confederate flag being relevant to the Charleston shooting. Your argument was mostly about racism existing in the US. While racism still exists in every country, this has nothing to do with the U.S. flag representing slavery.

[1] http://www.loc.gov...
Debate Round No. 3
mentalist

Pro

I thank my opponent for his response.

While my opponent has suggested that I went off topic, a review of the debate will prove I was merely addressing his counterpoints. At any rate, I will readdress the primary issues regarding the US flag being a symbol of slavery and the flying of the Confederate flag being a distraction.

First, it should be noted that the current flag that contains 50 stars is technically inaccurate, as Hawaii is not a legal or lawful state. However, unlike my opponent, I do not like arguing semantics because they stifle advancement and retard dialogue. Thus, I will focus on how the current U.S. flag continues to symbolize slavery.

I will provide definitions for a few terms that are relevant to the discussion.

slavery (n.)
2. the subjection of a person to another person, esp in being forced into work
3. the condition of being subject to some influence or habit
4. work done in harsh conditions for low pay [1]

slave (n.)
1. a person legally owned by another and having no freedom of action or right to property
2. a person who is forced to work for another against his will
3. a person under the domination of another person or some habit or influence: a slave to television
4. a person who works in harsh conditions for low pay
5.
1a device that is controlled by or that duplicates the action of another similar device (the master device)[2]


13th Ammendment to the Constitution

SECTION. 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

SECTION. 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. [3]

There are different forms of slavery or being a slave which include:

Chattel slavery is the most common form of slavery known to Americans. This system, which allowed people — considered legal property — to be bought, sold and owned forever, was supported by the US and European powers in the 16th – 18th centuries.
  • Forced Labor — Describes all types of coerced work that an individual must provide against his or her will. Contemporary forced laborers are treated as property to be exploited commercially, much in the same way African Americans were regarded during the antebellum period in American history.
  • Bonded Labor or Debt Labor — Describes slavery in which an individual is compelled to work in order to repay a debt. It differs from other forms in that, oftentimes the laborer and the employer initially enter into a mutual agreement. However, contract conditions may be illegal and/or vastly more beneficial to the employer than the laborer. These workers become slaves when they continue working, but cannot pay off their initial debt because of exploitative contract terms and, thus, cannot leave.
  • Child Slavery — Describes all child labor obtained from individuals under the age of 18 through the means of force, deception or coercion. Children can be enslaved in debt bondage, forced labor, prostitution, armies, domestic work and other forms of hazardous work. Today, forced child labor exists in nearly every industry around the globe.
  • Domestic Servitude — Describes slaves that are forced to work in extremely hidden workplaces: private homes. Domestic workers become slaves when their employer uses force, fraud or coercion to control or convince an employee that they have no choice but to continue working. Isolating environments, unfamiliar languages, confiscated travel documents and restricted mobility are often connected to this form of slavery. [4]
My opponent acknowledges that racism still exists in the U.S., however, refuses to acknowledge the connection between its existence to the chattel slavery upon which the country was founded. While the flag has changed, the reality of the history still remains. That being said, the U. S. flag continues to symbolize slavery in the modern era.

As the 13th ammendment protects individuals against slavery unless they have been punished for a crime and 'duly' convicted, the rise of the prison industrial complex should come as no surprise to anyone. This prison industrial complex houses a disproportionate number of melaninated peoples. Many of those imprisoned have been convicted of victimless crimes or for 'violating' minor infractions and statutes. Thus, the 13th ammendment did not abolish slavery as much as it made it conditional or provisional. As previously mentioned, "The most effective weapon Anglo-Saxon elites have used to preserve power in American society has been the rule of law...there has been a great deal of racial legislation in the history of the U.S.." [5] In fact the prison industrial complex and the disproportionate numbers of melaninated people it houses can be linked directly to slavery.

Forced Labor

"...Prison labor has its roots in slavery..a system of 'hiring out prisoners' was introduced in order to continue the slavery tradition. Freed slaves were charged with not carrying out their sharecropping commitments..or petty thievery " which were almost never proven " and were then hired out" for cotton picking..in the state of Georgia, 88% of hired-out convicts were Black. In Alabama, 93% of hired-out miners were Black..a huge prison farm similar to the old slave plantations replaced the system of hiring out convicts. The notorious Parchman plantation existed until 1972.

..Jim Crow racial segregation laws were imposed on every state, with legal segregation in schools..and many other aspects of daily life. Today, a new set of markedly racist laws is imposing slave labor and sweatshops on the criminal justice system, now known as the prison industry complex...

..a prison population of up to 2 million "mostly Black and Hispanic" are working..for a pittance. For the tycoons who have invested..it has been like finding a pot of gold..[no] strikes.. unemployment insurance, vacations or comp time..workers are full-time, and never..late or are absent because of family problems..if they dont like the pay of 25 cents an hour and refuse to work, they are locked up in isolation cells.

...'no other society in human history has imprisoned so many of its own citizens.'...the United States has locked up more people than any other country: a half million more than China, which has a population five times greater than the U.S...the US holds 25% of the world's prison population, but only 5% of the world's people.." [6]

Though payment is not required for work to be considered slave labor, often these prisoners are not paid at all.[7]

Debt Slavery

You are a debt slave. Don’t believe it? 43% of all American families spend more than they earn each year...The funny thing is that all this debt is completely contrived, manufactured, false. It is a way to keep you in check, and working for the plutocracy, instead of enjoying the sovereignty of your own life and health. You run on a treadmill, ever faster, to pay off this ‘debt’ but it will never disappear as long as the current regime is allowed to continue their deceitful devices.

- By participating in a system that arbitrarily determines wealth based on how many pieces of paper one has, the paper, which, in and of itself has no real value, you are either deemed ‘wealthy’ or ‘poor.’ How is this possible?

- Bankers (the Federal Reserve) can gamble with our paper money

- You pay a central banking system ‘interest’ based on the pieces of paper they dole out to you or take from you at their own personal discretion. The rate of interest can be determined only by this ‘power’ and not by the people who borrow money.

- Your paper can lose value at the whim of this institution, yet you, yourself do not lose value – your goods, your services, your knowledge.

- You can be taxed on your earnings, but to fund what? And with what legality?

- You can be charged ‘fines’ for doing things that any normal human being would do

-
The wars alone waged in the past decade amount to more debt than any American citizen could ever individually amass over an entire lifetime...All of your freedoms are being taken away at planned increments so that you can do but one thing – work and slave for the oligarchy. [8]

College debt slaves

- Going to college may still be the best time of a person’s life, but millions of students and their families are doomed to a life as student loan debt slaves.
The shooter did not mention the flying of the flag as a motivation for the shooting. He did mention wanting to shoot 'blacks' and his misconceptions about 'blacks' taking jobs from 'whites' and 'blacks' raping 'white' women. My point being that the existence of racism in the U.S. today is very relevant to this debate.
Lincoln's views on slavery are periphery to the debate as the U.S. and its flag symbolized and symbolize slavery in many forms.
"...we all have the rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness""
Since 911 these rights have been curtailed and these rights have always been jeopardized in regard to melaninated people in the U.S..

Child Slavery and Domestic Servitude

- Child slave labor has been used in more than two dozen companies in this country including Campbell Soup Co., Chi-Chi's Mexican restaurants, ConAgra, Costco, H.J. Heinz, Newman's Own, J.C. Penney, Pillsbury, Sears and Wal-Mart. [9]


http://dictionary.reference.com... [1]
http://dictionary.reference.com... [2]
http://constitutioncenter.org... [3]
http://freedomcenter.org... [4]
http://www.thedailybeast.com... [5]
http://www.globalresearch.ca... [6]
http://www.prisoncensorship.info... [7]
http://www.nationofchange.org... [8]
http://ihscslnews.org... [9]

DCPolitical

Con

My opponent claims that Hawaii is not a state and that therefore my statement about the current flag being not a symbol of slavery is false. This is blatantly false. Hawaii is legally a state[1] as of August 21st, 1959. Furthermore, even if it wasn't the flag still wouldn't be the same, as Alaska was granted statehood on January 3rd, 1959[2].

Racism exists in every country, and I admit it exists in the U.S. as well. My opponent claims that I rightfully acknowledge the presence of racism in the U.S. but "[refuse] to acknowledge the connection between its existence to the chattel slavery upon which the country was founded." The U.S. was not founded upon "chattel slavery". This is another blatantly false assertion. The U.S. was founded upon contrasting political ideologies to that of Britain, to which the U.S. was formerly a colony[3]. One of the main ideas of this was "Taxation without Representation", a practice of Britain which sparked the Boston Tea Party political protest by the" Sons of Liberty" in Boston, Massachusetts[4]. The Union, flying what is now the American flag, was not built on chattel slavery. The Confederacy, however, was founded directly on chattel slavery. In fact, the Confederate States of America "was originally formed by seven slave states in the Lower South region of the United States whose regional economy was mostly dependent upon agriculture, particularly cotton, and a plantation system that relied upon slave labor"[5]. The Confederacy "relied on slave labor" whereas the Union fought to abolish the practice completely.

My opponent compares prison labor to chattel slavery which is irrelevant. I suppose community service is "forced labor" too? Being punished for a crime is different than chattel slavery. The "Gulag" system in the USSR is a far more accurate depiction of what my opponent claims[6]

The Jim Crow laws were terrible and abolished by the Union. However, that does not have anything to do with slavery.

My opponent claims that "'no other society in human history has imprisoned so many of its own citizens'", another statement that is false. Seychelles has 868 prisoners per 100,000 as of June 2014[7], the US had 707. We do not have the highest incarceration rate, that is simply false. The U.S. does not stand for slavery. The U.S. does not have the highest incarceration rate and furthermore does not seek to arrest as many people as possible to support forced labor.

Next, my opponent addresses "Debt Slavery" in saying "You are a debt slave. Don"t believe it? 43% of all American families spend more than they earn each year." This is not slavery. If someone spends more than they earn the American flag most certainly cannot be held accountable. How does a flag make you spend more than you earn? In an attempt to justify this he claims "[b]y participating in a system that arbitrarily determines wealth based on how many pieces of paper one has, the paper, which, in and of itself has no real value, you are either deemed "wealthy" or "poor." How is this possible?" This is "currency", a form of compensation used in all civilizations in the world[8]. This has no correlation to slavery whatsoever.

My opponent makes many further claims about how having currency relates to slavery:

"You pay a central banking system "interest" based on the pieces of paper they dole out to you or take from you at their own personal discretion." This is false, again. It also doesn't relate to slavery at all. We get payed interest for keeping our money in a bank, where banks can loan it out and collect interest from others while paying us interest as well[9]. Banks are a business, as you should know.

"Your paper can lose value at the whim of this institution, yet you, yourself do not lose value " your goods, your services, your knowledge." This also doesn't relate to slavery. This is called inflation and deflation[10]. Currency changes value and the government tries to manage it to the best of their ability.

"You can be taxed on your earnings, but to fund what? And with what legality?" This is called "Consent of the Governed"[11] and is not illegal. It funds the government so they can fund public schools, public transportation, the military, and pay policemen and other government workers. Again, not a form of slavery.

This is a large example of how my opponent uses the red herring fallacy to divert attention from the topic being discussed.

My opponent next claims that people who have college debt are also slaves, but fails to support this claim as "[g]oing to college may still be the best time of a person"s life, but millions of students and their families are doomed to a life as student loan debt slaves" is his only assertion without any evidence. College debt is not forced upon anyone. If you cannot afford to pay for something, it is in your best interest not to purchase it. This also does not correlate with slavery.

Next, my opponent discusses the Charleston shooting and the relevancy of the Confederate flag. While "the shooter did not mention the flying of the flag as a motivation for the shooting", as my opponent said, he did pose online holding the confederate flag and burning the US flag. The US flag stands for the idea that "every man is created equal" while the confederate flag supports a former country who "relied on slave labor". My opponent also claims in that paragraph that "all men are created equal" is not practiced in the U.S. because "[s]ince 911 these rights have been curtailed and these rights have always been jeopardized in regard to melaninated people in the U.S.." This is another red herring fallacy. The rights that were "curtailed" were never mentioned and there is no evidence to support this claim.

Lastly, my opponent bring up the topic of "child slavery and domestic servitude". This is an important issue, however the argument is slightly misleading. I read the source provided by my opponent and none of the slave labor occurs in the U.S.. It occurs in countries from which the companies listed by my opponent have purchased products. When confronted about it, most of the companies are "looking into the situations and would never deliberately buy products that were being made by children".

[1] http://www.history.com...
[2] https://history.state.gov...
[3] http://www.archives.gov...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[7] http://www.statista.com...
[8] http://www.investopedia.com...
[9] http://www.themint.org...
[10] http://www.investopedia.com...
[11] http://www.loc.gov...
Debate Round No. 4
mentalist

Pro

"Hawaii is not a state and that therefore my statement about the current flag being not a symbol of slavery is false...even if it wasn't the flag still wouldn't be the same, as Alaska was granted statehood"
The addition of Alaska made 50 states, so,without Hawaii it would be (is) 49. Hawaii's lawful status is in question to this day. Until 1959 there were 48 states in America, but the admission of Alaska and Hawaii that year brought the number to 50. [1] However, as stated, this is a periphery point which I never connected to the flag being a symbol of slavery.

"The U.S. was not founded upon "chattel slavery.""
The truth is yes, while the fathers of our nation were writing our Constitution and fighting for our liberty, they did, in fact, have hundreds of human beings that were listed in their account books as personal property and worked for them as slaves. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and Patrick Henry were all slave-owners. [2]

When the last remaining Founders died in the 1830s, they left behind an ambiguous legacy with regard to slavery. They had succeeded in gradually abolishing slavery in the Northern states and Northwestern territories but permitted its rapid expansion in the South and Southwest. Although they eventually enacted a federal ban on the importation of foreign slaves in 1808, the enslaved population continued to expand through natural reproduction, while the growing internal domestic slave trade led to an increase in the tragic breakup of enslaved families. [3]

"...it was economic self-interest and not moral convictions that ultimately led to the abolition of slavery. It was only after slavery came to be regarded as an impediment to industrial progress that abolitionists in Europe and the United States succeeded in suppressing the slave trade and abolishing slavery." [4]

"Slavery obviously stains "the immaculate conception of America" preached by Bachmann and other Constitutional originalists,.."So if your vision is to return the U.S. to the 1770s, you have to find a way to argue that slavery was not inherent in the Founding." [5]

It is extremely duplicitous to marginalize the existence of slavery during the founding of the U.S. in attempts to downsize the negative effects it has wrought in the modern era and paint the founding fathers as a group of dignified men who considered the best interests of the slaves. The valuation of slaves as property is what lies at the heart of much of the racist sentiment that plagues the U.S. to this day.

"The Union, flying what is now the American flag, was not built on chattel slavery."
This Union, that my opponent alludes to, was not built in a vaccuum. It is validated or invalidated by its actions. Those who attempt to act as if the 'peculiar' institution of slavery had no effect on the racist environment that exists in the U.S. are living in denial. It is not like mistreatment of melaninated people was ended upon the abolition of slavery. Slavery was an accepted practice in both the Northern and Southern states during the signing of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. There are still officers killing and harassing melaninated peoples as overseers did during the times of chattel slavery.

"My opponent compares prison labor to chattel slavery which is irrelevant. I suppose community service is "forced labor" too?"
As illustrated, prison labor has direct ties to chattel slavery. It was and is a way to force labor upon a disproportionately melaninated group of people that are disenfranchised. While my opponent views it as irrelevant, I am sure there are many who will disagree.

"The expanding use of prison industries, which pay slave wages, as a way to increase profits for giant military corporations, is a frontal attack on the rights of all workers...the fact that the capitalist state has found yet another way to drastically undercut union workers’ wages and ensure still higher profits to military corporations...is an ominous development...the defense sector has been quietly outsourcing production (and jobs) to cheaper labor markets overseas.”..with prison labor, these jobs are also being outsourced domestically...Prisoners there worked covered in dust, without safety equipment, protective gear, air filtration or masks...There are now more African-American men in prison, on probation or on parole than were enslaved in 1850, before the Civil War began..a staggering 1-in-100 adults in the U.S. are living behind bars. But this crime, which breaks families and destroys lives, is not evenly distributed. In major urban areas one-half of Black men have criminal records. This means life-long, legalized discrimination in student loans, financial assistance, access to public housing, mortgages, the right to vote and, of course, the possibility of being hired for a job...Major corporations profiting from the slave labor of prisoners include Motorola, Compaq, Honeywell, Microsoft, Boeing, Revlon, Chevron, TWA, Victoria’s Secret and Eddie Bauer...prisoners who refuse to work are moved to disciplinary housing and lose canteen privileges as well as “good time” credit..Systematic abuse, beatings, prolonged isolation and sensory deprivation, and lack of medical care make U.S. prison conditions among the worst in the world..working under grueling conditions for pennies an hour is treated as a “perk” for good behavior...The prison-industrial complex..a greater source of profit and..reinforced by the climate of racism and reaction."[6]. In my opinion, these conditions are not that different from post chattel slavery imprisonment or the Gulag system mentioned by my opponent.

"The Jim Crow laws..have anything to do with slavery."
Ridiculous. The Jim Crow laws were enforced in the North and the South. "..the North was not so much unlike the South when it came to racial attitudes; the North simply used more subtle ways to enforce the separation of the races. As a southerner once told me, "racism is just tacit in the North. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist." Jim Crow Moves North should be used in any African American history course, if nothing else to show that racism was not simply the South's problem, but the nation's problem."[7]

"Seychelles has 868 prisoners per 100,000 as of June 2014[7], the US had 707."
My opponent has pointed out that the U.S. has the second highest inarceration for 2014. I am sure the founding fathers would be proud. We only got the silver medal, we usually grab the gold.

"This is not slavery. If someone spends..."
More accurately, this is not chattel slavery. As mentioned, there are various forms of slavery.

"How does a flag make you spend more than you earn?"
This was a connection to a form of slavery in the U.S. which is represented by the flag.

"This is "currency", a form of compensation"
Actually, the currency my opponent refers to is actually a debt note owed. Also, as slavery can also be an addiction to an influence, the dependence on money can be viewed as slavery.

" We get payed interest.."
If my opponent reads the passage carefully, he will notice it is referring to money lent an not money saved. RIF

"Currency changes value and the government tries to manage it to the best of their ability."
Actually, inflation is regulated by private central bankers who lend to the Fed.

"This is called "Consent of the Governed"
Shouldn’t people willingly and voluntarily choose their own government no matter where they live? Isn’t that what is meant by consent of the governed? [8]

"..claims that people who have college debt are also slaves, but fails to support this claim.."
As stated, there are different forms of slavery.[9] Bonded labor or debt labor describes slavery in which an individual is compelled to work in order to repay a debt.

""all men are created equal" is not practiced in the U.S."
If all men are created equal were practiced would schools, housing, and education be segregated or racially biased? Would classism exist?

"The rights that were "curtailed" were never mentioned.."
Stop and frisk, redlining, allowances for unreasonable search and seizures and the library provision of the Patriot Act - all of these policies involve curtailed liberties.

"child slavery and domestic servitude"
Factories in Bangladesh, Haiti, Cambodia and elsewhere that make uniforms for federal workers often violate basic labor standards. [10]

The U.S. and Confederate flags are symbols of slavery. Mentioning the flying of the flag in SC is an attempt to distract the mass' attention away from the institutional and systemc racism that plagues the U.S.. While concessions for internment were made to the Japanese mistreated during WWII, reparations for slavery have yet to be addressed.[11]
The Emancipation Proclamation did not end slavery in the US.. In fact, emancipation etymologically refers to a transfer of ownership.

I thank my opponent for participating.

http://www.buzzle.com... [1]
http://www.revolutionary-war.net... [2]
http://www.britannica.com... [3]
http://www.gilderlehrman.org... [4]
http://theweek.com... [5]
http://www.globalresearch.ca... [6]
http://www.h-net.org... [7]
http://www.loc.gov... [8]
http://www.nationofchange.org... [9]
http://www.nytimes.com... [10]
http://www.democracynow.org... [11]
DCPolitical

Con

Hawaii is a state and my point regarding Alaska and Hawaii's statehood was that those were annexed in 1959, almost 100 years after abolition. 50 stars can't represent slavery because there weren't 50 states during that time.

The Confederacy was founded upon "chattel slavery". The US was founded for different reasons as I mentioned before. The US was founded because of conflicting political ideologies with Britain. The Confederacy was actually founded because of slavery. While those historical figures listed by my opponent were slave owners, the US wasn't based on slavery. It was based on differing political ideologies from that of Britain[1].

Slavery was terrible and inhumane. I acknowledge its existence, yet it being existent in the 1800's doesn't have relevancy to whether or not the flag represents slavery. As slavery is illegal[2], our flag most certainly cannot represent it.

I read my opponents source 4, which was very vague and did not mention any specific people. Lincoln believed slavery was against american principles, that "all men are created equal" and that we have the rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Those are all moral reasons, not economic reasons. Lincoln "had not only given slaves their freedom; he'd also begun to promote full equality, including voting rights, for blacks"[3].

Furthermore, college debt and other forms of debt are in no way slavery. Those are self-inflicted. The US can't be held accountable for someone spending more than they earn.

My opponent also says that a dependence on money is an addiction and therefore slavery. This is a frivolous argument. We use currency to have an economy.

My opponent also claims that private central bankers intentionally inflate prices and somehow that is a form of slavery. There is no evidence for this assertion.

As far as consent of the governed goes, if you want to live in this country, you consent to being governed. If you want to choose your own government, there are almost 200 to choose from.

My opponent also claims that that schools, housing and education are segregated and racially biased, but that is not true at all. Brown vs Board of Education overturned that[4].

In conclusion, the US, a democratic abolitionist country does not represent slavery because it was not founded because of it and it is a highly frowned upon practice. Also, the Confederate flag represented the precise ideology that Dylann Roof has and he was seen burning the US flag (a symbol of equality) while posing with the Confederate flag.

[1] http://www.archives.gov...
[2] http://www.loc.gov...
[3] http://www.usnews.com...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 2 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
==================================================================
>Reported vote: TGambit// Mod action: Removed<

3 points to Con (Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: there were good arguments on both sides, but I was not swayed and con was slightly more convincing

[*Reason for removal*] (1) Lack of specifics for the arguments point. Merely repeats point categories.
===========================================================================
Posted by Wolf_Fang 2 years ago
Wolf_Fang
Wow, never thought a Pro could do such a horrible job.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by FaustianJustice 2 years ago
FaustianJustice
mentalistDCPoliticalTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro seems to meander quite a bit on some tangential points, however I feel the core of the argument needed a better definition: each flag post Civil war would also be an appropriate representation of time. Were the Union flag at the time of the Civil War specifically be the target of the debate, much of what was offered by Pro would get more traction. As it stands, Con was sufficiently able to make use of this concept to divorce the current incarnation of the flag from slavery by way of this 'escape hatch'. Too many of Pro's arguments hinge on racism, and its pitfalls rather than keeping to the core of the resolution, which was what each flag was founded on. Good sources and conduct were used and conducted by both sides, so no definitive points can be awarded there. Same with S and G.