The Instigator
miketheman1200
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
thett3
Con (against)
Winning
12 Points

The United States is exhibiting the principles of a communist form of government

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
thett3
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/7/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,162 times Debate No: 28979
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (3)

 

miketheman1200

Pro

First round acceptance

Second round arguments

Third round rebuttal's/ any further arguments

Fourth round continued rebuttal's and no new arguments.
thett3

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
miketheman1200

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for accepting before continuing to make my arguments.

The United States was formed through revolution in an attempt to release themselves from an oppressive government. The bill of rights and a system of checks and balances would stop the United States government from restricting our freedoms. Today the U.S is a very different place and it started in the early 1900s. The communist revolution was happening in Russia, and in the United States there were many groups of people who agreed with the communist manifesto and the ideal society it set out for people who followed it.

What follows are the Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto (simplified):

1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.

N/A

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

the 16th amendment placed a gradually increasing income tax on U.S citizens in 1913.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Although this is not absolute, the Federal and State estate tax make it more difficult to give inheritance freely.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

The IRS is essentially able to take property without due process, though they must send a notice in advance to the seizure.

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
My favourite, the Federal Reserve, prints a single federal currency to be used within the United states.

6. Centralization of the means of communications and transportation in the hands of the State.

The DOT provides public transit for United States citizens and is a federal branch.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

N/A

8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Affirmative action attempts to make schools "equal" in numerous ways. The minimum wage attempts to control economic standing within the bottom class by forcing a pay check out of companies which hurt from paying employees more than they would like. The higher amount of money being distributed also leads to higher priced goods and inflation.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.

N/A

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

Kids across the U.S federally provided education, yet we are one of the lowest rated countries in schooling. A big problem I have, and have been subjected to because of this is the Pro administration/Pro government propaganda you get from teachers.


From what I have listed above, you can see that 7/10 of the planks are present within the US today, and go mostly unnoticed because it has become so entrenched within our society. Americans are used to free public schooling, free food, minimum wages, public/free transportation, welfare, going through unbelievable amounts of paperwork so that you're son can have the car when you pass away. Americans are used to paying one of the highest income taxes in the world (39% for wealthy individuals). These examples show clearly that the United States is exhibiting the principles of a communist form of government.

I also think that it's interesting that some of these laws were passed prior to the communist revolution and at a time when communism was an interesting concept to many lower class Americans. It's very possible this influenced communist policy in the federal government, notably the 1913 federal income tax.

Just reminding you that round two is arguments only, rebuttals in round 3.

Sources

http://www.jdsupra.com...

http://www.law.cornell.edu...

http://en.wikipedia.org...


thett3

Con

Thanks, Pro. Voters, please note in the comments that my opponent graciously allowed me to rebut his case in this round, so I will present my case (or, perhaps a more apt description, an analysis of the resolution), then refute my opponents.


What is a principle, and what are communist principles?

Oxford dictionary[1] defines a principle as "a rule or belief governing one’s personal behavior". This seems to fit nicely with the resolution--that is, the rule or belief would be whatever the fundamental belief of communism is. This is reaonable, but requires a more in depth look at what communism actually is; I like how Wikipedia puts it[2]: Communism is "is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well asa social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order". Now that we know *what* communism is, to understand the principles of a communist we must understand WHY they believe as they do. If one had to define Communsim in one word, that word would likely be "equality", just as modern liberalism would probably be "fairness" and capitalist libertarianism "property". As my opponents case clearly proves, Communists want equality and the abolition of property, but their reasoning for wishing so is not simply because they *do*, but because they believe that members of a society should be equal. Contrary to the average Americans perception of communism as some dangerous megastate genocidal regime run by aggressive, culture destroying madmen, to be a communist one merely needs to believe in the fundamental equality of all workers in society. Society needs bakers, janitors, 5 star generals, CEO's, farmers, ect. so why discriminate? To the communist, each person is equal, and since society cannot survive without the manufacturing and performance of all the goods and services it requires, surely it then logically follows that in an ideal world there would be equality for all.

Communism is an inherently stateless order, as anyone who asserts arbritary political authority over another is denying their fundamental equality. For these reasons, statist "communist" nations, both past and present, failed because they violate the most fundamental principle of communism--which is equality. Indeed, the "planks" my opponent posits are not actual planks of Communism--they are planks designed to prepare society to become truly communist[3], IE stateless.

You can see from the definitions and analysis provided that in order to win my opponent would not only have to prove that the policy actions made by the US government are communist in practice, but also the intent is communistic, or else it fails to meet the requirement of a principle.

Opponents case

Lets now turn to my opponents arguments. Recall also that these, even if totally conceded, are not even communist principles, they are just ways to bring society closer to communism.

My opponent doesnt even attempt to link 3 of the planks to the US--however more importantly is that two of these are the most reflective of what communism actually is. I'm not saying this just to win the debate, it only makes sense that for an ideology that advocated the communal ownership of all resources the abolition of property, the planks advocating the abolition of property (1), and the removal of the means of production from private hands (7) would be significant in truly achieving it's aims. With this in mind, you can already negate,because with the sole possible exception of plank 8, the important parts of communism arent proven under his arugment.

I'll just go over the planks he did address now.

2. Income Tax

--> Pro has no warrant on this being for the purpose of communist equality/the abolition of the state. If anything, the most common advocates of higher taxes (generally liberal democrats) are hardcore statists in their own right, who wish to increase the power of the state.

--> The logic behind the progressive tax can better be explained by socialist or populist ideologies which gained great influence during the progressive era than communist ideology. The Ohama platform (1892)[4] of the populist party proposed a graduated income tax, but not to prepare the country for Communism, but rather to increase the power of the government. The populists wished " the power of government – in other words of the people – [to] be expanded."

--> The income tax can also be explained as a perversion of Common Law under the principle of no taxation without representation. As Bruno Leoni explains[5]: "
the principle "no taxation without representation" was intended as "no taxation without the consent of the individual taxed," and we are told that in 1221, the Bishop of Winchester, "summoned to consent to a scutage tax, refused to pay, after the council had made the grant, on the ground that he dissented, and the Exchequer upheld his plea." Of course, as the state grew these ancient rights were discarded, and remain only in name. The growth of state power, not communism, is a far better explanation for the existence of an income tax.


3. Abolition of inheritence



--> Pro, again, has no warrant on the intent being communistic, meaning it isnt a principle.

--> This argument is rather silly, as a tax on inheritance for very large estates isnt even close to abolishing inheritance rights. My opponent goes so far as to concede this, so you ignore this point.

4. Confiscation of property

--> Again, no explicit intent.

--> This is better explained by socialist, liberal, populist, or conservative (in the claccical European sense) ideology, than communism. All of these ideologies have no problem with state power and growth, and are, and always have been, far more prevelant in the United States than Communism is.


5. Centralization of credit and money

--> My opponent gives no analysis on how the Federal Reserve is communistic. Indeed, many market analysis's indicate that Fed policies help the big banks and the wealthy[6]---the very antithesis of Communism.

--> There is no exclusive monopoly on money. Most Americans accept federal reserve notes, but other currencies like Gold and Silver are legal tender in many states[7], and its not at all unheard of for Americans to trade in foreign currencies or goods.

6. Centralization of communication and transport

--> First, this is flat out untrue. Most Americans have their own cars, and most metro or bus systems are at the hands of states, not the central government.

--> This is by no means exclusive to communism. This is just another way to restrict private property under communism, but centralization of transportation when it does occur is generally for other reasons (like cheaper fairs, less carbon emissions, conviencence, ect.).


8. Equality of labor/ national industries

--> I was honestly shocked to see Pro arguing that all labor is equal in a time where income inequality is extremely high.

--> AA is not state mandated, no link to the resolution.

--> Minimum wage is a populist idea, not a communist one. Communists want an equal wage for all, there would be no such thing as a minimum wage (or wage at all) under communism.

10. Free education/child rights
--> I concede that these things exist, but my opponent doesnt explain how this links to Communism, other than Communism wants it too. Ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Vote Con.


Sources:

1. http://oxforddictionaries.com...
2. http://en.wikipedia.org...;
3. http://en.wikipedia.org... (See II)
4. http://dig.lib.niu.edu...
5. Bruno Leoni, Freedom and the lAw (Indianapolis, Ind.: Uberty Classics, 1991), p.118. Print.
6. http://money.cnn.com...;
7. http://theintelhub.com...

Debate Round No. 2
miketheman1200

Pro

miketheman1200 forfeited this round.
thett3

Con

Extend, vote Con
Debate Round No. 3
miketheman1200

Pro

miketheman1200 forfeited this round.
thett3

Con

Extend all arguments, vote Con
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by thett3 4 years ago
thett3
Thanks:)
Posted by miketheman1200 4 years ago
miketheman1200
Point noted, feel free to state rebuttals. I should have thought of that while constructing my argument.
Posted by thett3 4 years ago
thett3
yo dawg, can I rebut in round two? I mean, there really isnt much of a case I can make, my job really is just to refute your arguments yoiu know?
Posted by Azul145 4 years ago
Azul145
Well we are techincally still a republic but once Obama is finished squashing America under his filthy foot we probably will be socialist or communist.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by phantom 4 years ago
phantom
miketheman1200thett3Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
miketheman1200thett3Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: F.F.
Vote Placed by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 4 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
miketheman1200thett3Tied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Thett3 kicked butt.