The Instigator
Harboggles
Con (against)
Winning
42 Points
The Contender
qwerty15ster
Pro (for)
Losing
29 Points

The United States of America is a Christian nation.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/23/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,387 times Debate No: 3354
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (21)

 

Harboggles

Con

"In god we trust" appears on all of our Currency.

"One nation under god"

We swear on a holy bible when we give testimony in court.

Yet our nation was founded on the notion of being able to practice ANY religion.

So someone prove to me that we are a Christian nation. Not in terms of the majority of what people believe (many people believing one thing doesn't make it true)

So, convince me.
qwerty15ster

Pro

So I took this debate, not because I feel passionately about the fact that there a lot of christians in the US, but more to correct my opponents fallacious logic.

With that, I will begin......

So I will be jumping around with my quotes to best represent what is most important.....

"So someone prove to me that we are a Christian nation."

--I need not prove anything to you, you are the one who instigated this debate. thus, the burden of proof is on you my friend. That is like you taking the con on whether or not aliens (from another planet, not country) exist. And telling the pro to prove it. Obviously the pro cant just go find an alien and say, "hey, here is an alien, I win." The con has to bring up some points as to why they don't exist. This is more theory than anything else, and if my opponent wishes to continue this argument, I would be more than happy to debate it, but lets now move on.

"So, convince me."

--Irrelevant and fits right into my point above, not to mention we aren't here to convince each other, we are here to convince the judges, it is almost a given we will both vote for ourselves.

"Yet our nation was founded on the notion of being able to practice ANY religion."

--Very true, however that does not mean that we are not a christian nation, a majority of people in america claim to be christian (which fits right in to your next point)

"Not in terms of the majority of what people believe (many people believing one thing doesn't make it true)"

--True that many people believing in something doesn't necessarily make it true. However, we are not debating whether or not Christianity is true, we are debating whether or not the US is a Christian nation. and with this statistic.....

"76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian."

We can very much see that most americans are christians, and in a democracy, majority rules. Thus, america is a christian nation.

Happy easter btw! :D

76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian.
Debate Round No. 1
Harboggles

Con

I wonder how the founding fathers would feel about that......

In specific, John Adams.

Let's examine the treaty of Tripoli..

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

And who was it signed by?

John Adams

Further, the United States Constitution has no mention of god or religion inside. The country was founded by people who wanted ANY religion to be practiced here be it Islam, Christianity, or some random third world religion we've all never heard of.

"76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian."

That doesn't make the nation Christian, it makes the people who live INSIDE the nation Christian.
qwerty15ster

Pro

You know, I didn't particularly want this to be a debate about semantics, but whatever.....

nation-a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own

From dictionary.com.......

The body of people that rule the US is a nation, thus we about 3 out of every 4 people claim to be christian, that would make us a christian nation. Nowhere did I say that the laws are christian. (although I think argument could be made for that) Nor did you say "The government of the US is christian." It is simply that a majority of the nation, is christian.

With that, the John Adams quote is irrelevant, and the constitution does mention religion, it just says that there shall be no law preventing religion. However, again the majority of people are christian.
Debate Round No. 2
Harboggles

Con

Our government is a representative one, since we are represented inside the government, but our government is secular, our nation is therefore rendered secular as well.

Also, in a democracy, the majority doesn't get complete rule. If we did that then slavery would still be legal. The minorities must be protected as well.

Another example...

If a majority of americans eat cheese, it doesn't make us a cheese eating nation. It just means that we like cheese. Unless the government enforces it.

in a democracy, the people are represented THROUGH the government and since the government is secular....the people must be seen as secular.
qwerty15ster

Pro

Wow, that was frustrating.... I was almost completely done with my argument, when I accidentally exited out of it...... Must do all over now.......

Ok, so a brief summary of a very important point that my opponent missed before I hit what he did say. My opponent ignores the definition provided in round 2 of what a nation is, the people inside a country. So when my opponent keeps arguing that the government is christian, he is missing the point. We are talking about whether or not the people within the USA are christian or not, and with 3 out of every 4 people claiming to be christian, that answer is overwhelming yes. Thus, I have already won my side of the debate. Now, moving on to what he did say.

"Our government is a representative one, since we are represented inside the government, but our government is secular, our nation is therefore rendered secular as well."

--Falls into my last point, we are talking about people, not the government. If you wanted to argue whether or not the government was christian or not, you should have worded the resolution so.

"Also, in a democracy, the majority doesn't get complete rule. If we did that then slavery would still be legal. The minorities must be protected as well."

--Complete rule doesn't matter, the majority of people claim to be christian, thus the USA can considered to be a christian nation.

"If a majority of americans eat cheese, it doesn't make us a cheese eating nation. It just means that we like cheese. Unless the government enforces it."

--Um, yes it would. Again, we aren't talking about government, we are talking about the people. Look to the definition of 'nation'.

"in a democracy, the people are represented THROUGH the government and since the government is secular....the people must be seen as secular."

--Wow, I feel like I have seen this argument somewhere...... Just extend what I said earlier about this not being about the government, this about the people.

With that, I shall summarize. My opponent tries to argue that nation = government. However, that is very untrue. A nation consists of the people within the country. 3 out of 4 people claim to be christian, we are a christian nation. I have effectively proved my opponent wrong. (as he has not proven anything in the round) My opponent never really stuck with the same argument and never clashed any of mine. With that, I ask the voters to vote on debate, not opinion.

Thanks.
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by phatso86 8 years ago
phatso86
i love how qwerty15ster consistently uses semantics to "prove" his point (in the debates i've thus far have seen). He addresses all the faults of others' word phrasing and word choice, then he comes back and mentions how he didnt want the debate to be about semantics?

how does that work?
Posted by Oolon_Colluphid 9 years ago
Oolon_Colluphid
I'm sorry for posting off-topic, but I noticed that Harboggles is con here and an atheist. I also saw he was a part of the Independent American Party. Aren't they a theocratic party? Is there another party by this name?

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Posted by jazzyfizzle 9 years ago
jazzyfizzle
i believe that just because most of americans may identify them self's as christians .that don't make it a christian nation...now if u were talking bout iraq then we can say it is a nation that believes in one god....
Posted by Vi_Veri 9 years ago
Vi_Veri
Most of the founding fathers were deists. Jefferon was a noted agnostic (though people label him as an Atheist sometimes, and I can see why...) a few others were anti organized religion. I believe 2 others were atheist (other than Jefferson) but I can't tell you off the top of my head.
Posted by Samacado 9 years ago
Samacado
THe founding fathers were atheists
Posted by Samacado 9 years ago
Samacado
The US official religion is religion, no suprise there. Although alot more people are agnostic or atheist but say they are religious
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
"76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian."

and

"The body of people that rule the US is a nation, thus we about 3 out of every 4 people claim to be christian, that would make us a christian nation."

How did you reach this figure when the US population reached over 300 million recently?
Posted by Rob1Billion 9 years ago
Rob1Billion
If you are correct, qwerty, then we are not just a christian nation. We are a WHITE Christian nation.
Posted by Vi_Veri 9 years ago
Vi_Veri
Same-sex marriage is illegal, Harboggles. That is a Christian ideal.

This is a Christian dominated country. Yes, it's a Christian nation by residence (and those residents running for office), but it is not a Christian nation on paper.
Posted by Yraelz 9 years ago
Yraelz
Well, considering the fact that harboggles does drop the definition of nation and allows it to stand I'm going to have to vote for qwerty15ster as he supported the idea that our nation is a christian one.
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Vote Placed by Yraelz 8 years ago
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