The Instigator
platoandaristotle
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
TheMarketLibertarian
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

The United States should not have any laws limiting access to guns.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/6/2017 Category: Politics
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 526 times Debate No: 103426
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (0)

 

platoandaristotle

Con

I argue for gun control(ie requiring a license to own a gun), Pro argues for the motion
Several studies show that pro-gun legislation increases crime.
Open carry laws increase crime - http://feeds.latimes.com...
Another study shows: "The overall homicide rate, among the metro areas whose principal city is in a state that requires some form of permit to purchase a gun, is 4.32 per 100,000 residents, compared with 5.74 among cities in no-permit states. This certainly does not confirm the gun control = higher violent crime hypothesis. Quite the opposite."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
Gun control decreases crime by making gun access harder and thus reducing the ability to commit violent crime.
TheMarketLibertarian

Pro

My oppoent has argued that the government should restrict the right to bear arms because this would make it harder for potential criminals to commit crimes. This argument is completely nonsensical for 3 reasons:

First, 77% of crimes committed in America are doe by those with prior criminal record, {1} and it is already illegal for felons to own guns- so banning everyone else from having guns will have no effect on the demographic which accounts for the majority of the crimes my opponent says such a ban would prevent. It's like if I said that my neighbor Bob might kill his wife (despite having no reason to believe this), so I tie up and disarm Bob's wife- it makes no sense.

Second, under our legal system, you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty- and banning people from owning guns because they might misuse ther guns violates this principle. 30 times as many people die from obesity as do from gun violence every year, yet we don't ban fast food. {2}

Third of all, my opponents sources are very unreliable- the first is in the opinion section, and the second is not a study, but a blogger who purposely falsified and cherrypicked data from an FBI report, and wikipedia.

{1}. http://www.crimeinamerica.net...
{2}. http://www.rightdiagnosis.com...
Debate Round No. 1
platoandaristotle

Con

"First, 77% of crimes committed in America are do(n)e by those with prior criminal record, {1} and it is already illegal for felons to own guns- so banning everyone else from having guns will have no effect on the demographic which accounts for the majority of the crimes my opponent says such a ban would prevent. It's like if I said that my neighbor Bob might kill his wife (despite having no reason to believe this), so I tie up and disarm Bob's wife- it makes no sense."
I have some doubts about your source here - it has a slant to the libertarian right - but it does seem credible.
Also, first-time offenses, suicide, and accidental manslaughter are not affected.
Finally, a national license and background check requirement would prevent repeat offenders from obtaining illegal guns from legal shops which do not perform these checks.
"Second, under our legal system, you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty- and banning people from owning guns because they might misuse ther guns violates this principle."
I am not proposing a ban on guns - I am proposing that people be required to undergo thorough training and a background check prior to obtaining them. This means judging their guilt (and also avoiding potential accidental manslaughter)

"Third of all, my opponents sources are very unreliable- the first is in the opinion section, and the second is not a study, but a blogger who purposely falsified and cherrypicked data from an FBI report, and wikipedia. "
My LA Times article did cite one study regarding this, so it cannot be entirely dismissed.
There are other sources that could be mentioned as well.
CDC data shows that states with poor gun legislation have high homicide rates - http://smartgunlaws.org...
2000 terror suspects buy guns in a year (autoplay warning) - http://www.nydailynews.com...
Gun owners are likely to use guns in violent crime http://www.vpc.org...


TheMarketLibertarian

Pro

1. It's already illegal for felons to own guns- any further laws wouldn't have any effect.

2. My opponent says:
"I am not proposing a ban on guns - I am proposing that people be required to undergo thorough training and a background check prior to obtaining them. This means judging their guilt (and also avoiding potential accidental manslaughter)."
Which would treat people as if they were guilty until proven innocent, (i.e., you have to prove that you are responsible before they let you buy a gun), which is contrary to our Constitution- you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.

3. The Center For Disease Control doesn't hae any juristiction in the area of firearms, and my oponent sourced a blog instead of the CDC. His other sources are also incredible bloggs.
Debate Round No. 2
platoandaristotle

Con

"It's already illegal for felons to own guns- any further laws wouldn't have any effect."
And as I said, suicides by gun would be reduced. I'm not just talking about felons.
Also as I said, felons can walk into a gun store and buy a gun without a background check.
"(My opponent suggests mandatory gun licensing,) which would treat people as if they were guilty until proven innocent, (i.e., you have to prove that you are responsible before they let you buy a gun), which is contrary to our Constitution- you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty."
It is true that we are innocent until proven guilty in court. However, in practice, we do contrary things quite often. For example, you are also required to get driving licenses (effectively meaning that you have to prove responsibility before driving a car).
"The Center For Disease Control doesn't hae any juristiction in the area of firearms, and my oponent sourced a blog instead of the CDC. His other sources are also incredible bloggs."
The Violence Policy Center is not a blog.
My other sources were blogs, one of which I had doubts about.
My CDC link was from a factcheck.org post, but it is possible that they got it wrong.
For a long time, the CDC actually did do research on gun laws.
TheMarketLibertarian

Pro

1. Suicide is a human right- so if gun restrictions would make it harder to commit suicide, this would be more reason to not have gun restrictions.

2. You already have to have a backround check to buy a gun.

3. You only need a drivers licence to drive a car on public roads, you can still own a car, or even drive it on private land without a liscense. The equivalent would be to prohibit people from firing guns on government property- which is already illegal, and reasonable.

Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by backwardseden 11 months ago
backwardseden
There's no such a thing as gun defense. Its a myth. This will be shocking to you. The Pulse attack. If someone had one of those super-powered flashlights, the attacker would have not gotten two feet inside the door. One shine in his eyes, he falls to the floor. He's knocked out long enough so he can be taken down. When you have a gun... you have to take out your gun, point, aim, shoot, probably miss, hit something else, perhaps something you don't want to like a loved one, and it might not work.

* AP "An accidental shooting kills a child every other day in the US" 10/14/16
* The Huffington Post "Amend The Second Amendment To End Gun Violence" 7/12/16
Last year the Violence Policy Center found that a gun owner is 32 times more likely to use their weapon in criminal homicide rather than in self-defense. Usually the first reason a gun advocate says there is a need to own guns is the self-protection myth. Now that that myth has been debunked and it has been proven that justifiable homicides are rare, we must move past the old self-defense narrative and think with clearer heads when discussing gun ownership.
* Journal of American Medicine 6/30/16
"And, as statistics show, the more guns that are purchased, the less safe we all are. Especially gun purchasers, who are 80% more likely to be wounded by their own gun than by anyone else"s."
Continuing...
"Especially when 3D printers are capable of creating lethal guns in just minutes, without a waiting period or even the involvement of a gun manufacturer."
* The Hollywood Reporter 8/18/16
" The NRA has convinced people that a home with a gun is safer than one without a gun. That is a lie. Not even close, and the odds are about 8-to-1 that if someone does get hurt with that gun, it's not going to be a bad guy. It's going to be the owner or a friend or family member. The NRA has all the politicians scared and doesn't "let" Congress research gun violence anymore, but fortunately scientists do it anyway, and these are
Posted by backwardseden 11 months ago
backwardseden
@TheMarketLibertarian - You sound like the typical person who has never been involved with any type of suffering whatsoever. It also shows that you have not done any credible research on guns whatsoever. Its shows. Drastically. I live in Orlando, yes the Pulse attack. I've also had a so-called co-worker go right on into my work place and take out his hand gun and murder his girlfriend. Then in 4 years he was out, tapped me on my shoulder at the downtown bus station and he told me he was the manager at a local restaurant. Great! Just what we should all do is go out and murder our close ones so then we will be out of prison within 4 years so we will all have high paying careers when we get out.
* You also don't know that if you have a gun in the home with a woman in the home, she is 3x more likely to be murdered. I'm surprised its not 20x or higher.
* You also don't get that within 5 years or less all of your so-called gun rights will go POOF. Now take one lucky guess why? I'll tell you. The advancement of guns is RIGHT NOW so rampant that the current laws cannot keep up with that advancement. 3D printer guns as an example will and are being built in people's basements and they will make today's guns look like nothing. So how do you rewrite laws, when you cannot search everybody's households to see exactly what is happening and being built? Don't be surprised if people can already build something that can level an entire neighborhood in their homes. You---know---nothing.
* How many suicides do you think are with legal guns? Its pretty near all of them especially with vets who commit suicide 22 - 23 per day with a gun.
* How many daddy going wacko and murdering his family do you think are with his legal guns that he has kept with him in his locker stashed away for a few years?
Posted by backwardseden 11 months ago
backwardseden
Here's a few links that I dug up. Now I haven't even gotten into the the "gun" thing. If you want some more, let me know because it goes into a different direction, like self defense and things like that. But it may repeat a few things. So I would apologize on that. Regardless I hope what has thus far been sent has helped?
https://www.google.com... Rep VS Dem Gun control 2015
https://www.inc.com... Guns: The Dark Side of 3D Printing Arrives in Reno Airport
http://www.reuters.com... Pro-gun group stages fake shooting in Texas to push firearm rights
https://www.washingtonpost.com... To reduce suicides, look at guns
https://www.yahoo.com... Three Charts Show The Giant Disconnect Between Gun Deaths and Mental Health
https://constitutioncenter.org... Constitution Check: Are gun rights withering away?
https://constitutioncenter.org... Constitution Check: Can guns used in mass shootings be banned?
https://finance.yahoo.com... Daily News publishes explosive cover: 'NRA'S SICK JIHAD'
http://www.nydailynews.com... Firearms for fanatics: Stop suspected terrorists from getting guns
Posted by backwardseden 11 months ago
backwardseden
* Chicago Tribune "Does the Second Amendment really protect your right to carry a gun? 6/11/16
* The Atlantic "No Constitutional Right to Concealed Firearms, Federal Appeals Court Rules" 6/9/16
* CBS news "Appeals court: People have no right to carry concealed weapons in public" 6/9/16
* CNN "States can restrict concealed weapons, court says" 6/9/16
* Times of San Diego "Major Loss for Concealed Carry Advocates in San Diego Case" 6/9/16
* Reuters "No constitutional right to concealed guns: U.S. appeals court" 6/9/16
* Fox Nation "Gun Rights Setback: Court Rules Americans Don't Have Constitutional Right to Concealed Carry" 6/8/16
mic "Top Constitutional Lawyers Explain What the Second Amendment Really Says About Gun Control"12/15/15*

Here's something that I find truly frightening, scary, sad and pathetic...
* Washington Post "Police officer"s 3-year-old son fatally shoots himself" 7/15/16
Oak Creek, Co.
Across the country so far this year, there have been at least 137 other child shootings " in which minors unintentionally shoot themselves or others " according to Everytown for Gun Safety, a group funded by former New York mayor Michael Bloomberg. That data, compiled by combing news reports, includes shootings that result in injury or death.
THE SON OF A POLICE OFFICER!!!!!!! Can anybody possibly grasp that idea in their fricken noggins? If a son of a POLICE OFFICER shoots himself to death, and people still thinks its safe to own a gun, and or talk about gun safety, and or their idiotic second amendment rights, sorry, I don't buy it for a single second.
Posted by backwardseden 11 months ago
backwardseden
of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness than to protecting those same rights."
* Detroit Free Press "Liberty demands we take another look at the Second Amendment" 6/19/16
* Huffington Post "Yeah, About That Second Amendment" 6/17/16
* Los Angeles Times " 2nd Amendment talk is nonsense " until we control the weapons and the killing stops" 6/16/16
"None other than the late conservative hero, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, put it this way in a 2008 opinion affirming the right of individuals to own firearms:
"The right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.... The right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose."
There is no constitutional right to tote around a military-style assault weapon, and courts have ruled so.
But we know all this, or we"re in denial."
* Huffington Post "Don"t Bank On The Supreme Court To Clarify The Second Amendment Anytime Soon" 6/15/16 Well the supreme court disagrees with the second amendment"s terminology. Here"s some examples"
"But in March, a month after Scalia"s death, the justices tipped their hand the other way, ruling that a Massachusetts ban on stun guns may violate the right to bear arms, quietly but forcefully endorsing the late justice"s Heller decision."
"But writing separately, Thomas and Justice Samuel Alito said they would have gone further, asserting that indeed, gun ownership for self-defense is a "fundamental right" while making clear that Americans" safety shouldn"t be "left to the mercy of state authorities who may be more concerned about disarming the people than about keeping them safe."
Posted by backwardseden 11 months ago
backwardseden
self-defense. Usually the first reason a gun advocate says there is a need to own guns is the self-protection myth. Now that that myth has been debunked and it has been proven that justifiable homicides are rare, we must move past the old self-defense narrative and think with clearer heads when discussing gun ownership.
* Huffington Post "Machine Guns Aren't Protected By The Second Amendment, Court Rules" 7/1/16
* Detroit Press "What if we regulated drugs the way we regulate guns?" 6/29/16
"background checks don"t prevent "good guys" from obtaining guns, they ensure that criminals, domestic abusers, suspected terrorists, those with documented mental illness " and teenagers " can"t legally purchase them and are forced to the black market, which is more costly and difficult to navigate. And restoring the ban on assault weapons would not prevent law-abiding citizens from exercising their Second Amendment right to carry a licensed and concealed pistol for personal protection"
* Salon "The failure of the Second Amendment: Our founders got this one wrong in every respect" 6/27/16
"However, the question remains as to whether or not this aged bit of legislation has actually accomplished its goal. Have militias effectively contributed to the defense of the nation and has a freely armed private population made America fundamentally safer and more secure society where life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness exist by virtue of a well-armed populace?"
"The fact that the United States has and continues experience staggering levels of gun-related deaths, despite presently having well over 330 million guns in the country, is clear demonstration that being well armed as a society does not equate to being safe in a broader sense.
This makes for a strong argument that the Second Amendment is a failed amendment " a hopelessly entrenched piece of legislation that has continually fallen short of its expectations and has contributed more to depriving Americans of the rights
Posted by backwardseden 11 months ago
backwardseden
Here's stuff on the pitiful 2nd amendment alone. Its not links. But you can hopefully copy and paste the "titles into your Yahoo search engine, and the links should come up. Now what I did, obviously, was from each links, was grab what I thought was important. I have a lot. This isn't even for starters,

* CNS News "The Left"s War on Guns Leaves the Second Amendment Standing on Shaky Ground" 10/18/16
With the death of Justice Scalia, however, the Left may get its wish, depending on who is ultimately confirmed to replace him. The Second Amendment is on shaky ground, and gun control activists continue to argue that America"s firearms policies contribute to violence, even though violent crime rates have fallen over the last twenty-five years while gun ownership has increased dramatically, and even though most gun violence occurs in areas that have some of the strictest gun control measures.
* San Francisco Chronicle "Court sets California gun-carry case on path to Supreme Court" 8/15/16
"The Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco upheld the law in June, ruling 7-4 that there is no constitutional right to carry concealed weapons in public." Oh yeah, your rights to bear arms are being limited. Too bad you don"t like it.
* CNN "27 words: Deconstructing the Second Amendment" 8/11/16
* Huffington Post "If Trump Were President, Comments Like "Second Amendment People" Would Start Wars" 8/10/16
* Huffington Post "The Second Amendment" 7/18/16
"Saying that Americans have "a fundamental right to bear arms" is not accurate. The work of our Founding Fathers gave Americans the privilege to bear arms."
* The Washington Post "The right to bear arms has mostly been reserved for whites" 7/15/16
* The Huffington Post "Amend The Second Amendment To End Gun Violence" 7/12/16 There"s a lot of good stuff here folks including"
Last year the Violence Policy Center found that a gun owner is 32 times more likely to use their weapon in criminal homicide rather than in
Posted by platoandaristotle 11 months ago
platoandaristotle
Backwardseden - send me the links
Posted by backwardseden 11 months ago
backwardseden
Greetings! I have a TON of gun information if you are interested to support you position. But it is dated from 2016 and earlier. But its still accurate.
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