The Instigator
Debating_Horse
Pro (for)
The Contender
EXOPrimal
Con (against)

The Vietnam War Was Something We Should Have Not Engaged In.

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Debate Round Forfeited
EXOPrimal has forfeited round #2.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/31/2017 Category: Education
Updated: 2 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 522 times Debate No: 104691
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (24)
Votes (0)

 

Debating_Horse

Pro

https://www.youtube.com... I had another debate on DebatingIsland, but I did not see much things. (I may cancel or put this debate up again if no one accepts) This debate is about the U.S Involvement in the war. The Vietnam War was not worth engaging in. 58,000 killed, all the bombings, and we still failed in the objective to prevent communism from taking over the country. As (con) being against the idea that it wasn't worth engaging in, he must argue why it was worth engaging in. The debate will also be shown as proof for whether the war was worth engaging in (fourth time I say this) or not. Now to continue with the contender!
EXOPrimal

Con

I would like to thank my Opponent for creating this debate, I would like to say that BoP lands on me to prove that we must engage in Vietnam.

Losing
In order to determine why we should have engaged in the war, we must start at the end in our current timeline. It is evident that the US losing Vietnam was a political decision, instead of a military necessity. In order to explain this conclusion we must first look at the timeline of the Vietnam war.

1973 - North vietnam agreed to create to sovereign vietnamese nations, not much different from North and South Korea. This essentially meant that the US had won the war, as the goal of the war was to stem communism. An important aspect of this is that the US had to have a significant military and economic presence so south Vietnam could rebuild its economy.

1974 - Nixon resigned due to the watergate scandal, and the democrats won a sweeping victory in the midterms. The dems at the time were not convinced with foreign intervention in Vietnam. North Vietnam sensed weakness, and realized that the US would not protect south Vietnam because of the democratic legislature. The attack came swiftly.

It evident that just by looking at the timeline of the Vietnam war that our lass was a political decision, harbored by the new Democrats. It is evident that there would no way to realize this would happen when we engaged, not to mention multiple benefits that could have occurred by staying in Vietnam. One such benefit would be stopping the Cambodian massacre, which would have not happened as the US would have intervened.

Ideology
We entered Vietnam during the Cold War, a time where Ideologies were clashing, Russian and Chinese Communism against American Capitalism. Each ideology was trying to win over the third world countries, the countries that had not chosen a side. The US had to engage in Vietnam, otherwise it would have been viewed as a sign of weakness. At that time Communism was an oppressive and horrible governmental policy. The previously mentioned Cambodian massacre occurred because of the oppressive communist government.

The Vietnam war shares many similarities with the Korean War. Both consistent of two state, a northern communist state and a southern capitalist state. The Northern state crossed a national recognized boundary with help of Communist superpowers(Russia and China). In both cases the USA helped the Capitalist state fend off the aggressors.

The US was the biggest superpower at the time, why should anyone believe that the outcome of Vietnam would be anything different from the outcome of Korea. Actually, the outcome was no different, except for the very ending, where the US did not defend the southern capitalist nation. Therefore, another reason that we should have engaged in that we must defend our ideology.

Evil
I will not argue about modern notions of communism, though I believe communism is flawed concept. Nobody will deny that at the time communist governments were responsible for horrible crimes. Stalin killed at least 3 million people, Pol Pot murdered at least 3 million people, the list is endless(1). Even if you think that we should not have intervened to defend our ideology, nations have an obligation to stop genocide in other countries. We cannot just sit back at let governments murder their people. Communism is evil, and we have a moral obligation to stop it. It is evident that if communism took over Vietnam then genocide would have occurred, as it did. There is nothing wrong with trying to stop that.

In conclusion, is is evident that we should have engaged in Vietnam. We have to defend our Ideology, stop innocent lives from being murdered, and we should have won. People are too persuaded by the outcome of the war to consider the factors that resulted in the loss, or why we engaged. The war was not worth it, the unnecessary outcome was horrible, but we should have engaged.

1.https://en.wikipedia.org...
*I usually don't use Wikipedia, but their list is thorough. If if you have something against umbers, each massacre mentioned still occurred.
Debate Round No. 1
Debating_Horse

Pro

So reasons for engagement in the Vietnam War was for:


Ideology
and Evil

Now to take a brief look at this previous arguments:

"I will not argue about modern notions of communism, though I believe communism is flawed concept. Nobody will deny that at the time communist governments were responsible for horrible crimes. Stalin killed at least 3 million people, Pol Pot murdered at least 3 million people, the list is endless(1)."

This has nothing to do with "Vietnam War was not worthy for engagement".

"Even if you think that we should not have intervened to defend our ideology, nations have an obligation to stop genocide in other countries. We cannot just sit back at let governments murder their people. Communism is evil, and we have a moral obligation to stop it. It is evident that if communism took over Vietnam then genocide would have occurred, as it did. There is nothing wrong with trying to stop that."

Military intervention is not always an appropriate method for attempting to resolve those types of problems in other countries.

Now this excerpt: " My father is a Vietnam veteran. He has suffered severe heart problems for most of his adult life due to Agent Orange exposure in Vietnam. I wish that he had found a way out of his “service,” and, if the polls are trustworthy indicators of public opinion, most Americans now wish we had never gone to war in Vietnam or Iraq."

https://www.salon.com...;

Agent Orange did nothing to expell guerilla Viet Cong
Through pointless bombing, they did nothing but rebuild
• Thousands of U.S Fighter Aircraft were lost

https://en.wikipedia.org...;


http://www.hawaii.edu...;

" Poor generalship, mediocre officers, and lack of discipline ensured that the U.S. war effort in Vietnam would become and remain a mess. Stupid, pointless attacks against heavily defended hills inflicted huge casualties on U.S. troops and eroded morale."

https://www.commondreams.org...;

" The nightmare Vietnam War in which over 58,000 American soldiers died for nothing has been largely forgotten. So we can now repeat the same fatal errors again without shame, remorse or understanding."
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Nathaniel_B 1 month ago
Nathaniel_B
DAYYYUM!!! His account got terminated!
Posted by Debating_Horse 2 months ago
Debating_Horse
+DustinSmith Actually, I cannot debate really well. I took some classes back in High School, but at this point, I forgot my skills. But from my observations, it is based on good arguments. Also there can be PROPER debate structure, like DrCereal's: http://www.debate.org...

Then there is debates with no structure, and many prefer that because of their inability to follow the debate's structure. But right now, I am here to gain experience. If I make mistakes, I revise my mistakes to point out my errors, then I can continue on to debate correctly and avoid making those mistakes again. I also want to help new members on how to debate too, that way it can be fun for everyone! But first I need the knowledge before I can take such action. Many of us are practicing my friend, not everyone is perfect, but once there is experience and knowledge, we should be well on own way towards success.
Posted by DustinSmith 2 months ago
DustinSmith
+Debating_Horse You are just awesome. I wish I knew how to debate. But unfortnately I don't know how to. But I enjoy seeing others debate like Ben Shapiro. Which by the way how would you have felt if it was Ben Shapiro you were debating against. Gosh that would be interesting.
Posted by Debating_Horse 2 months ago
Debating_Horse
Of course not. This was a once in a time debate, you forfeited, that is your problem. It is not my duty to remind you when your arguments are due. You debate so much, yet you forget when your arguments are due, what an stupid opponent! If you aren't committed to the debate, then don't accept it if you do not have time to debate! I am extremely upset! There is no excuse for why you could not post your second argument! You should have prepared your second argument in advance after posting your first one! Come on! I will be sure to keep data on you because you cannot stay focused on one debate at a time! Please, NEVER again accept one of my debates EVER again! >:(
Posted by EXOPrimal 2 months ago
EXOPrimal
I'm really sorry, I didn't have time to finish my argument. Can we continue some other time?
Posted by EXOPrimal 2 months ago
EXOPrimal
Don't worry buddy, i'll do it
Posted by Debating_Horse 2 months ago
Debating_Horse
Mr EXOPrimal, please submit your argument. You have but one day to do so!
Posted by Debating_Horse 2 months ago
Debating_Horse
+DustinSmith I know, I can be fine with Trump and others avoiding the draft, it was a pointless war to fight in.
Posted by DustinSmith 2 months ago
DustinSmith
Sorry I can't debate this cause I agree that Vietnam was pointless as well as Gulf War.
Posted by Smooosh 2 months ago
Smooosh
It's gonna be tough to find somebody to argue that one. If you made it about any of the wars after that one, then you might find more takers!
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