The Instigator
MrButtons22
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
jonbmagician
Con (against)
Winning
20 Points

The Voting System on Debate.org Needs VAST Improvement

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/28/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,450 times Debate No: 9352
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (6)

 

MrButtons22

Pro

It seems obvious to me: anyone can set up an account on DDO, search for their favorite topics, and easily vote on whatever they want, without even reading the arguments. The resolution is that SOMETHING must be done to improve the voting system on this site. I will give a few ideas that could be incorporated by the DDO creators, but am open to any other suggestions:

1) Show how each person voted.

2) Moniter the votes more closely.

3) Show a feed on each account's page that reveals what they voted on and how they voted.

4) Have each voter write a short, detailed paragraph on why he/she voted that way, which fellow members can see and report if they find something wrong with it.

Also, I am not able to vote, even though I have a cell phone. Why? I do not know. I have sent in my number multiple times, and have never received an approval text. This must be remedied as well.

Remember, this debate is focusing on whether or not the DDO Voting System is flawed, NOT on whether or not my specific ideas are "the best".
I await an opponent
jonbmagician

Con

Okay, this is my first debate on debate.org, so let's see how this goes. This is a very interesting topic, but something that I have never encountered before personally.

If the people in the comments section want to give their opinions on this debate, they can. This topic seems like something that multiple people should give their input on.

So, the resolved is that the voting system is flawed, and I am negating that resolution. My contentions:

1) It's very simple to understand: When you vote for con or pro, he or she gets a point. (For the specifics of the point system, http://www.debate.org...) The person with the most points out of the 6 voting topics gets a bonus point. Why risk making it more complicated by changing it?

2) It goes over a wide range of topics, which gives fairness to both pro and con. You can vote on grammar and and conduct and what not, so if pro were to only get one point and con would get the five remaining points, pro would still get one point and maybe have a chance to come back. One point could make a difference, after all.

3) It can give you an estimate of how much you need to improve. For example, if I were to lose this debate 52 to 5, obviously I need some work. But if the score were much closer, so something like 52 to 48, then I could infer that either my opponent's case was slightly stronger than mine, or the voters voted for my opponent on the first and second voting topics (Who did you agree with before/after the debate?), giving my opponent an edge.

I'm going to comment on your suggestions, if you don't mind. Since the resolved is that the voting system is flawed, and not to see whether his specific ideas are "the best," I hope the voters won't penalize me for saying whether I agree with a suggestion or not.

1) If you look at the section below the voting part and the names + pictures in the debate, there are three tabs that say Debate Rounds, Comments, and Voting. They're redesigning the Voting section to describe exactly what #1 says. ("This page is being redesigned to show the voter's picture and username.")

2) Define "more closely."

3) That wouldn't be a bad idea, but getting too specific about a feed on someone's profile might make people think that it's an invasion of privacy.

4) I like the idea of putting a paragraph, but I feel like letting other members being able to comment/report on a paragraph would start a "comment fight," which would be annoying.

Is there a way to contact a support group about that problem?

Honestly, I like your ideas on how the voting system could be improved, but if you were to elaborate on them and get some opinions from other debaters like I just did, you could have some legitimate improvements.
Debate Round No. 1
MrButtons22

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent for taking the time to debate me on this.

My main problem with the voting system is the lack of accountability concerning votes, not on how the votes are distributed. For instance, I recently finished a debate on a rather controversial topic. I posted my final argument, and the voting time began. Literally less than a minute later, I noticed that someone voted on the debate. The result? Three points given to my opponent, none given to me. I would not particularly have had a problem with that...if it were not for the fact that the person voted less than a minute after I posted my final argument. There is absolutely no chance that someone could have noticed that the debate was open for voting, read my final argument, reflected on what was being said, then voted, all in less than a minute's time. Even if she/he happened to be looking at the debate just as I posted my final argument, I still find it incredible. Also, in this debate, my opponent did not use ANY citations whatsoever, all the while "quoting" facts. I backed up my arguments with citations, and when my opponent claimed that my sources were biased and unreliable, I gave other sources (showing the same exact facts, thus proving my original sources WERE reliable, by the way) that no one could logically claim were "unreliable" (Major newspaper articles, government health instituions, etc.) The first three voters (I checked periodically) gave me absolutely NO POINTS. Once again, if I were simply losing in that debate, that would be one thing. But to give citation points (or at least give a tie) to a person who cited NO SOURCES while making arguments that absolutely had to be backed up by sources? That is preposterous.

Also, the voting system is different from what you described it to be (not to count against you; I was under the delusion that the system worked the way you stated as well). My main reason for bringing up this debate is to try to get people to talk about the voting system; whether or not they believe that it needs improvement. Is the voting system fine (minus the lack of accountability)? Yes, I find the point distribution to be adequate. But what good is a voting system for a debate site if it merely reflects people's predetermined thoughts on the given subject?

1) The tab indicating that they are "redesigning" the site has been there for quite a while; as long as I have been on (a few months). Nonetheless, it is something that is not incorporated into the voting system yet, so that would be considered an "improvement".

2) I do not know if anyone tracks the voting on this site. If they do, they need to stop what is called "vote bombing", where a group of people (for various reasons) vote for a specific side en masse, always as a concerted effort. Granted, it would be hard to determine that without question. However, when iLikeRepublicans, nObama08, fashistNeocon69, and reaganBaby! (all fictitious usernames, by the way) are constantly seen voting (around the same time) on political debates (and giving ALL of their points to the more conservative side), well, one can wonder...

3) I may or may not be the minority on this point, but I would not consider (nor do I believe that DDO should consider) it an invasion of privacy if someone were able to see my voting record, because:

A) No one knows who I really am.

B) It is required that the age, city and state (country, for internationals) be shown. I find that a greater invasion of privacy. If privacy is important to DDO, then they should not require that this information be shown.

C) If DDO is genuninely trying to accomplish what it says it means to accomplish ("This page is being redesigned to show the voter's picture and username."), then why not put that information right on the page of each voter? Remember, accountability is key here.

4) I was thinking of having the voting comments put on the voting tab, once it is up and running. No one would be able to start a "comment war" on that tab, as you can only comment when you vote.

I initially did contact them about the situation, but never received a response. I just sent another e-mail to them. Hopefully they will respond this time.

I await your reply.
jonbmagician

Con

I'd like to thank Pro for responding.

In response to your first paragraph, I read that debate, and saw that you cited your sources. I am also surprised by the quickness in voting, but there's no rule on debate.org stating that once a voter votes, exactly what he or she has voted is posted on his or her profile or in the comments section. To post a voter's votes in the comments section is up to his or her discretion. Also, if you were to find out who voted so quickly on your debate, what would you do then? Would you call out this person, or threaten to get their account deactivated for abusing the voting system? A debate.org user is allowed to vote the way he or she wants, and he or she shouldn't be penalized for it.

I only described the voting system that way so I could type my whole argument faster. The first two questions give no points, the third and fourth questions give one point each, the fifth question gives three points, and the sixth point gives one points. Whoever receives the most votes out of these six questions gets a bonus point. You say that your reason was to talk about the debate, and you've succeeded. But getting the debaters on debate.org to talk about it means nothing. If you have a complaint, send it to the staff of debate.org. It's like a complaint in a restaurant: if you want it known that your meal wasn't what you ordered, complaining to the other customers won't solve anything. You must complain to the employees for something to be solved. To your last sentence in your second paragraph, ("But what good is a voting system for a debate site if it merely reflects people's predetermined thoughts on the given subject?") you have to take into account that there are people who take this site very seriously and vote based on what arguments have been given, like you and I, and there are people who push random buttons and hope that whoever they agree with wins. There's a spectrum of people on this site, and there is no way to place a number on the serious debaters and the nonsensical debaters unless you go through every single debate to figure out who votes just to vote and who votes to be fair.

1) If you can give me proof that it's been there for months, then I'll believe you. I've only been on this site for a few weeks, so I can't say that it's been there for a long time. But you can't either until you can prove that it's been there for as long as you have been a member.

2) Of course they shouldn't be voting (they meaning "nObama08," or people like that.) They don't even have a reason to be on the site. But by joining debate.org, they're allowed to vote however they want. They can vote biased or unbiased if they want to.

3) A) I'm not sure what can be argued with this since no one knows who you are in any case. You could say this about anything relating to the users' pages. The news feed shows too much about what I've done on debate.org? No one knows who I really am. The fact that I put "N/S" on all of the big issues? No one knows who I really am, so it doesn't matter. You can see how I've voted? No one knows who I really am, so it doesn't matter.

B) Like you said, no one knows who you really are. I live in a town with about 100,000 people, maybe more. If I give my age, city, state, and country, what if there's another person who is the same age as me and lives in the same city and state? Or, what's stopping me from saying I live somewhere out in Alabama when I really live in Minnesota? You can easily lie about where you live and your age, so point B is irrelevant.

C) For point C, you have to take into account how much space that would take up on your page. The readers are probably thinking, "Why does this even matter?" But hear me out. Take a look at your home page, and see how organized it is. You have specific spaces for your comments, "The BIG Issues," etc. You say that you want to put the information right on the page of each voter. This means reformatting every single user's home page, which could put a pause on the entire website itself. This pause on the website could take as long as three days to three weeks, which could make many users angry. Then, a flood of complaints would come in to the debate.org's staff. They'd have to deal with the complaints AND getting the site back up.

4) You don't know whether a comment war would start once you vote. Like you said, there are people who "vote bomb." There's no way to stop them from existing. According to what you said, once they vote, they'll "comment bomb." They'll comment with exactly what they voted and why they voted. For example, this is something that "nObama08" would say: I voted for Pro because Obama believes in what Con said and Obama is a terrible person." There are definitely people on this site that would start a comment fight over that. I know I would.
Debate Round No. 2
MrButtons22

Pro

MrButtons22 forfeited this round.
jonbmagician

Con

Not sure what I have left to say, but vote for Con. Thanks for taking the time to debate me on this, and thanks to the debaters for reading this and voting.
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by jonbmagician 7 years ago
jonbmagician
Okay, I did my research, and found out what'll happen. Sorry for the past three comments, you can just ignore them :)
Posted by jonbmagician 7 years ago
jonbmagician
Sorry, ignore that last sentence. But will there be no definite winner?
Posted by jonbmagician 7 years ago
jonbmagician
Wait, there's no end to the voting period? So whoever has the most votes does not get a win counted on their page? Why would you do that, Mr Buttons?
Posted by MrButtons22 7 years ago
MrButtons22
Kleptin:
I just read your similar debate, and all I have to say is: wow. That debate proves my point EXACTLY. The fact that ANYONE gave Con even ONE POINT is pretty pathetic.
Posted by Charlie_Danger 7 years ago
Charlie_Danger
Change the voting period and I'll take it.
Posted by Kleptin 7 years ago
Kleptin
I argued this in January of 2008

http://www.debate.org...

This topic was made in August of 2009

It still has not been implemented.
Posted by Logical-Master 7 years ago
Logical-Master
I'd much rather the vaunted character limit be fixed up than the voting system. Regardless, people are always going to vote in a way you disagree with, but at least with a change to the character limit, you could argue to your potential and satisfaction.
Posted by Rezzealaux 7 years ago
Rezzealaux
Okay, so WHY does the DDO voting system need to be changed? At that point, you'd have to give your ideas and then they'd be weighed on their merits and their truth value would be assessed. Your points will necessarily be evaluated.

I explained why I gave you a -1.

I am done here.

On second thought, I might take this debate. Free win, since everybody dislikes you and I've already made my argument in the comments section here; I'd just have to c/p and it's home free for me.
Posted by MrButtons22 7 years ago
MrButtons22
To everybody: I really don't understand your problem. The debate is on the VOTING SYSTEM ITSELF. "Proving" that my ideas to make it better won't work does not address my argument. Since everyone seems to not understand this simple concept, I'll change the wording.
THE ONLY REASON WHY I PUT IT UP THERE IS BECAUSE I DID NOT WANT THE ATTENTION TO BE ON MY PERSONAL IDEAS, BUT RATHER ON THE RESOLUTION, THAT SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE IN THE DDO VOTING SYSTEM.
Posted by Rezzealaux 7 years ago
Rezzealaux
"The Voting System on Debate.org Needs VAST Improvement"

PRO: Must provide points on why DDO's voting system needs improvement.
CON: Must show why PRO's contentions are wrong.

"What I mean is arguing against my various ideas on how to improve the system. I am trying to say that the system needs improvement, period. My ideas may or may not be good, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the system itself needs improvement."

True, in a sense. Just like how any individual person's arguments for UHC might be good or not good, but just because that person's arguments might be stupid doesn't mean UHC is stupid - not every single person is representative of an idea. BUT if you're going to talk or debate about it, your points ARE what represents the position you profess. If you put up a UHC debate and you were PRO, and all you put up was "I like UHC, therefore we should have it", well sure it doesn't represent everyone's point of view, but YOUR argument is definitely full of shìt, and YOU are wrong, and YOU lose. At that point YOU do NOT get to say that UHC is a good idea. Until you come up with new arguments.

This is a pretty fundamental concept. Are you new to life or something?
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Reasons for voting decision: For your first, you did good.
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