The Instigator
tkentk
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
kasmic
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points

The Wage Gap is Fake

Do you like this debate?NoYes+4
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
kasmic
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/2/2015 Category: Economics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,353 times Debate No: 81954
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

tkentk

Con

As an avid surfer of the webs, I inevitably come across feminist blogs and other such sites claiming that there is an unfair wage gap between men and women in the United States.

It is my belief, after some research, that this claim is untrue.

To start off with, discrimination in salary in a working environment has been illegal since 1963. If you believe that your gender is causing your employer to pay you more or less, you can sue them in court and you will win. Period.

Besides that, the simple fact remains that the famous "Women make 77 cents to a man's dollar" statistic is misquoted. The statistic was made without taking into account profession of choice, time worked, benefits, or any other important piece of pay. Simply put, men choose higher-paying professions; women choose lower-paying professions. This is of no choice but their own. In addition, women usually choose jobs with more flexibility, which thus pay lower; understandably, they wish to be with their children. Women also take maternity leave, and men do not. This is proven in a study by Goldin and Lawrence Katz.

TL;DR The wage gap is a lie, gender inequality in payment is illegal in the workplace and has been for 52 years.
kasmic

Pro

“In 2012, the median earnings of American women working full time year-round were $37,791. American men earned a median income of $49,398. The gender wage gap has hovered at about 77 cents on the dollar since 2007.” (1)

This shows that generally men are paid more than women in the U.S. The typical response to this is to ask are women paid less because they choose lower-paying jobs? Con argues exactly this very thing stating... “ The statistic was made without taking into account profession of choice, time worked, benefits, or any other important piece of pay. “

Consider,

“Earnings are high for both women and men who work as computer and information systems managers. But while median earnings for men in 2011 were just over $98,000, median earnings for women were around $86,000. Likewise, aerospace engineers tend to earn a good living. But while a typical male aerospace engineer took home just over $100,000 in 2011, his female counterpart was paid $83,000.”(2)

This shows that Higher income occupations pay men more than women on average for the same work.

“Median earnings for male engineering technicians in 2011 were just over $56,000 compared with median earnings of $43,000 for female engineering technicians. Among drafters, typical earnings for men were just over $51,000 while typical earnings for women were just over $45,000.” (2)

This shows that median income occupations pay men more than women on average for the same work. Clearly the pay gap is empirically evident and as such, is indisputable. It may be exaggerated but the wage gap is evident.

Con argues points out that, “discrimination in salary in a working environment has been illegal since 1963.” Just because something is illegal does not mean it is not being done… for example, speeding is against the law and virtually everyone has broken the speed limit.

In short Con argues that “The wage gap is a lie, gender inequality in payment is illegal in the workplace and has been for 52 years.” The latter half is true, and the wage gap is often exaggerated. However, there is a wage gap that is empirically evident. Thus we see that the wage gap is not fake.

Sources:

(1) www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/gender-wage-gap_n_3941180.html
(2) http://www.aauw.org...
Debate Round No. 1
tkentk

Con

Pro has addressed my point regarding career choice, here;

Median earnings for male engineering technicians in 2011 were just over $56,000 compared with median earnings of $43,000 for female engineering technicians. Among drafters, typical earnings for men were just over $51,000 while typical earnings for women were just over $45,000." (2)

While this is correct, in this and his other given examples, Pro did not take into account my second point being that women generally choose to work fewer hours. In a survey done by Pew Research, it was found that 42% of working mothers have taken significant time off from work to care for a child or other family member. 27% said they had quit a job. The simple fact is, women choose flexibility in their hours which leads to corresponding lower pay. (1)

One might choose to argue that working mothers are not a fair sample; however, 70% of mothers were in the workforce in 2013, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Other factors include men choosing to take jobs that are more dangerous and more willing to work weekends and extra hours, according to CBS News, which cites the infamous "77 cent to a dollar" White House Report and the Bureau of Labor Statistics. (2)

Short Con: Conceding that without further research there appears to be a wage gap based on gender, when one looks deeper it is found that women choose to work less hours and are accordingly paid less.

(On another note, here is an article from the Huffpo taking a completely opposite position to the one Pro has stated as a source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com... )

1 http://www.pewresearch.org...
2 http://www.cbsnews.com...
kasmic

Pro

The huff post article that con cites refers to the second link I cited and concludes as I have that though the wage gap is often exaggerated it is not fake.

"The AAUW correctly notes that there is still evidence of residual bias against women in the workplace..." (1)

Furthermore, cons first cited source concludes likewise.

"As our video explains, the estimated 16-cent pay gap today has narrowed from 36 cents in 1980. Back then, the average woman would have had to work approximately 90 days, roughly into the beginning of May, in order to catch up with men"s earnings from the year before." (2)

Again we see that though the pay gap is often exaggerated, it certainly exists.

Summary:

4 sources in this debate, including two provided by con, demonstrate that the pay gap exists and is therefore not fake.

Sources:

(1) http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

(2) http://www.pewresearch.org...
Debate Round No. 2
tkentk

Con

My first source from the previous argument does indeed state that:

"As our video explains, the estimated 16-cent pay gap today has narrowed from 36 cents in 1980. Back then, the average woman would have had to work approximately 90 days, roughly into the beginning of May, in order to catch up with men"s earnings from the year before." (2)

However, shortly after this point, the article launches into the various reasons as to why this exists, which includes my point from above, being that women take more hours off and choose to have greater flexibility schedule-wise than men in the same career. The article does not factor this, my primary argument, into the assessment of the wage gap, nor the career choices held by men and women; one must remember the statistic being debated is ON AVERAGE, not for a specific career. If the article had taken the statistics stated in my above argument than the gap would narrow significantly, ceasing to exist.

Summary: Pew Article's "16 cent" statistic is WITHOUT taking into account the various work-related choices women make which in turn narrows the wage gap to the point of nonexistence. The wage gap is not due to any gender discrimination as some Feminists would believe.
kasmic

Pro

The pew article that con shared does state that "some part of the pay gap may also be due to gender discrimination.” Both my sources and con’s conclude that the wage gap is real. I have demonstrated that, Higher income occupations pay men more than women on average for the same work and that that median income occupations pay men more than women on average for the same work. While the wage gap is often exaggerated we see that “there is still evidence of residual bias against women in the workplace...”

Con asserted in Round 1 that “The wage gap is a lie.” We see that the wage gap is in fact real. Vote Pro!
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Robkwoods 1 year ago
Robkwoods
I don't have voting privileges. I have seen the topic debated multiple times, definitely nothing new. My vote was for the Con

Both of you have convincing arguments, but I believe there is some intellectual dishonesty on the pro side. The Pro can't get down into the actual per capita aspect because the wage gap goes nearly to zero. As Thomas Sowell said, if you are not willing to look at per capita data you are not serious. I read the AAUW study and they had no answer for the gap. I would argue they didn't go far enough with their controls. The con's topic is a bad one, because as always it went straight to gender bias. The topic should read, the wage gap is due to gender bias (sexism), if that is what you wanted. That is exactly the direction this went. The wage gap does exist, but it is very small and for reasons that have nothing to do with sex. The funny thing is that married mothers make less than single never married women. Where is the outrage? Boys in their teens make less than Boys in their mid 20's. Where is the outrage? It is simple, equal pay for equal work. You get what you worked for, and then the government takes it all away ;).
Posted by Robkwoods 1 year ago
Robkwoods
Awesome, thanks for the explanation.
Posted by kasmic 1 year ago
kasmic
Its the content, not the source that is under scrutiny. Hitler may have said 2 plus 2 is 4. Is Hitler a good math source... meh, but if he said 2 plus 2 is 4 then he would be right, no matter how bad of a source he may be.
Posted by kasmic 1 year ago
kasmic
Really to discount a source, you have to demonstrate why the info is wrong, not the website itself. So if tkentk cites a better source that somehow shows the huff po incorrect, then it might matter. If not, than it will stand.
Posted by kasmic 1 year ago
kasmic
No, Huffpo is not. I mean, most people will not care where you source from but huffpo is not a super solid one. That source is mostly just to show where the 23 cent disparity conversation comes from... the other source is much more reliable.
Posted by Robkwoods 1 year ago
Robkwoods
Is huffpost a viable objective source? I am not trying to troll, just asking for my future debates on here.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Rosalie 1 year ago
Rosalie
tkentkkasmicTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con argues that there isn't a wage gap, yet he uses sources that contradict his argument. Con basically shows us that there in INFACT a wage gap between men and women, and Pro points that out. Pro also shows us valid sources that the wage gap does in fact exist. He uses a reliable source that claims that the wage gap is real "The gender wage gap has hovered at about 77 cents on the dollar since 2007.? Basically all Pro had to do was show that there is a wage gap to win, and he did.