The Instigator
Bad_Jammer
Pro (for)
The Contender
ittrlitjfcialsnefr
Con (against)

The Wage Gap isn't real

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/8/2017 Category: Economics
Updated: 5 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 726 times Debate No: 103459
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

Bad_Jammer

Pro

The Wage Gap is not a real issue in today's Western culture, men do not earn more than women just because they're men. First of there is a massive difference between Wages and Earnings, wages are the total amount a person gets paid annually and that is a fluctuating rate for everyone within a specific occupation based on experience and skill, whereas Earnings are the amount you receive after taxes including the tax rebates that you receive at the end of the year. The amount that one receives in earnings changes along with how one gives to society, be it via. donating to charity or another organization for the betterment of society. The Gap many people argue about is really just a misconception about the difference in Earnings between people and isn't racial or gender discriminating but just an effect of choices. Say for instance there's two people working at a construction site the person who operates the heavy equipment with better efficiency and carries more materials will get paid more than the person who does less. Its a basic economic system whoever has the better expertise and is doing their job better will get more money for the work they do. Many times when people debate about the Wage Gap they bring up the amount of a certain gender in a job occupation such as more men in blue collar jobs like engineering and construction calling it sexist to think a women couldn't do those jobs, but it is scientifically proven men are stronger than women physically which makes sense why they would do those blue collar jobs. I see far more women in areas such as science and teaching which require a strong mental capacity which women are known to have. Women also graduate college with better grades and high averages than men but end up doing jobs in the Cosmetology and Care taking areas like day cares and nursing homes which are very important jobs in everyday society. Elders and infants would be at much more risk in today's societies if these places didn't exist, all I am saying is these jobs aren't necessarily "girl" jobs just like construction and engineering aren't necessarily "boy" jobs. It doesn't matter the gender you are it matters about the skills and experiences you have for that job.
ittrlitjfcialsnefr

Con

Hello,
I accept this debate because I believe that all deniers of the wage gap, are trying to find an excuse to be sexist. Whether income are defined as wages or earnings, a man is earning more than a woman for the same quality, job, and number of hours.

Before I reach the bulk of my argument, I'll start off with a few corrections from my opponent's case. The first thing I'ld like to point out is that when they say "...the person who operates the heavy equipment with better efficiency and carries more materials will get paid more than the person who does less...", I immediately thought of the example where men and women play a particular sport. Both put in the SAME training hours, both have relatively similar levels of competition, yet the pay gap is massive. For example, Cristiano Ronaldo, one of the most well known soccer players in the world, who makes an average of 5.77 international goals per year, earns $88 MILLION per year, for Christ sake! The highest payed woman in soccer, Alex Morgan, on the other hand, who scores an average of 7.4 international goals per year, earns only $2.8 mil, giving Ronaldo 31.45 times more cash per year! That statistic, to me, is beyond offensive, and into the the realms of mind-blowing. Look at these stats, and tell me that there is no wage gap. I am dumbfounded.
I also heard from my opposition that there aren't necessarily boy jobs or girl jobs or boy jobs, but yet he clearly portrays his sexist views when he says that men are always stronger than women, and women are always smarter than men, which is NOT THE CASE. The status quo (current situation), is that women are encouraged by society to have these brain-not brawl jobs, even if they dream of being a sports woman. The main reason for this, is that the pay gap for WOMEN doing these jobs that are predominantly men dominated, is very large, which commonly sways women towards the jobs that society deems, "better" for them. I do think that pay SHOULD be determined by experience, but it just isn't. If we want wages to be based on skill, then we need to fix the REAL wage gap.

My main argument, is just the overwhelming evidence and proof. In a report released by the US Senate*, woman earns approximately $10,800 less than a man per year, which adds up to about half a million dollars in a career. A woman will earn on average, 79 CENTS FOR EVERY DOLLAR EARNED BY A MAN. The institute of Women's Policy Research suggests that the pay gap will not close until about 2059. WOMEN HAVE A 2 TIMES HIGHER CHANCE OF LIVING IN POVERTY BY 75 (this is not real according to my opponent). A less qualified man (bachelor's degree) will earn around $5,000 more per year than a more qualified woman (graduate degree), which clearly proves that wages are NOT based on qualification.

In summary, my opponent's sexist views ignore the evident flaws in society, which NEED TO BE FIXED and DO EXIST.
Thank you.

*https://www.jec.senate.gov... (read me)
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Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Surgeon 5 months ago
Surgeon
Con does not seem to understand the laws of supply and demand and instead wants to deny economic reality to push an agenda. Women are paid less than men because on average they work in economic sectors that pay less, they work more part time jobs, on average less hours, and are employed in more flexible ways in the economy than men (mostly by choice). If they were paid the same as men, that would be unfair to men. The football example she gives is laughable. There is less demand in the economy for female football as a product, less demand means less supply of money and both means lower salaries. This is only evidence of supply and demand clearing at market rates and not sexism. Con mistakes correlation for causation and hides behind an 'average' pay gap.
Posted by brian.bors7 5 months ago
brian.bors7
Hey Levi_smiles,

Thanks for the extended answer. I think we are generally on the same page. There is a difference between dollars gained by men and woman. There are a lot of factors that cause that and I am sure that some of those factors are sexist in nature. I am sure that there are also simply direct sexists out there that pay woman less then men directly (although I think that only explains a tiny portion of the pay gap.). It's just really hard to measure how much of the pay gap is caused by systemic sexism. It's hard to gather data on it.

Do you think that over time most ingrained systemic sexism will disappear as the market slowly realigns with the law and general shift of morals and people with old sexist thoughts retire and/or die?
Posted by levi_smiles 5 months ago
levi_smiles
@brian to answer your question: market forces are obviously an important factor but generally, yes, higher levels of certification & training ought to command higher compensation. The point, however, is about gender discrepancy. Nurses & teachers have been in high demand for decades but compensation has trailed median income rise- almost certainly because these jobs are traditionally women's' jobs. Nurses are in far more demand than doctors but the pay gap continues to increase in favor of doctors. Many doctors work 3 or 4 day weeks now to artificially maintain demand but I don't know any nurses who don't work a lot of overtime. In traditional hunter/gatherer societies, the gatherers ( women) supplied 80-90% of the tribe's caloric intake but were also tasked with most cooking, cleaning, & child-rearing. In spite of the lesser contribution, male roles- hunting, war, leadership were the more celebrated & value. I guess I'm saying that sexism is so profoundly baked into how we define value that just pointing to societal values in no way factors out sexism. Most would agree that the raising healthy, well-educated children is the first priority of any responsible society but economists seldom attach a dollar value to that priority and never factor such a value into GDP, precisely because society takes women's contribution to that priority for granted. When women always cooked the meals, no particular value or status was attached to this labor. Once men started cooking, salaries, hierarchies, social rankings and professional standards were developed with a recognizable, quantifiable economy called cuisine. The very notion of economics is an essentially male perspective on human endeavor.
Posted by brian.bors7 5 months ago
brian.bors7
@Levi_smiles

LOL. Yes. Debaters would be a prime example. XD Nice one, hadn't even thought about that.
Posted by levi_smiles 5 months ago
levi_smiles
@brian you mean like debaters?
Posted by brian.bors7 5 months ago
brian.bors7
Hey Levi_smiles,

I agree with your assessment that cosmetology, teaching and nursing usually require more training than construction. You state "require the application of more sophisticated skill sets than construction so ought to command higher wages". Should jobs that require a more sophisticated skill sets always pay more? What if we encounter an example of a job that would require a very sophisticated skill set but would be of less value to society and highly popular to do for the fun of it (low demand, high supply). Should that job still pay more?
Posted by levi_smiles 5 months ago
levi_smiles
Bad Jammer's argument explodes on the launching pad. He forwards construction jobs as skilled labor meriting higher wages for men & teaching, cosmetology, & nursing as lesser skilled labor meriting lesser pay. I have never heard of construction school & know first hand that many construction require little prior training ( or even a high school degree, or even strong communication skills). Cosmetology typically requires 2-3 of post secondary schooling & certification, teaching 4-6 years & regular certification, nursing 4-8 years & fairly rigorous certification. All 3 jobs require the application of more sophisticated skill sets than construction so ought to command higher wages than construction not lesser. The question centers more properly on apples to apples comparisons. Historically, a male teacher with 10 years experience made more than a female teacher with 10 years experience. Any honest examination confirms that the wage gap was real and significant and has been closing rapidly for decades. I suppose there is some room for debate within the complexities of family leave, etc. but most serious studies (& my own personal experience) still detect some discrepancy.
Posted by brian.bors7 5 months ago
brian.bors7
Can I ask what your definition of "wage gap" is that you use in the statement to be debated?
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