The Instigator
Pro (for)
3 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
5 Points

The Walking Dead Game Season 2: SPOILERS! The player's choice not to shoot Kenny was justified

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/29/2014 Category: Games
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,617 times Debate No: 61030
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (2)




First round is for acceptance. Good luck!


Hello Cooldudebro, I accept your challenge! Couple things you should know before we begin.

1. This will be my first time debating on this website, or in any formal debating procedure. If I make a mistake, please feel free to let me know what I'm doing wrong.

2. I have had the actual experience with this event in the game, and I chose to spare Jane. This does not mean I wanted Kenny to die (I actually tried my hardest to keep them both alive). Sadly, that is not a choice. However, I believe I have a compelling argument as to why Kenny needed to go more than Jane.

I look forward to my first debate with you. Good luck!
Debate Round No. 1


Thank you for accepting! Good luck! BoP is shared.

Case 1: Jane Wanted To Kill Kenny

No matter how many times you tell Jane to stop fighting, she keeps on. Kenny didn't use any weapons while Jane had a knife. In one point, Clem will ask her to stop, and she'll say "don't interfere" She knew it was escalating quickly, and it would end in one of them being killed. Later in the episode, you will find out Jane just hid the baby, and killed him just to prove a point. At any time, Jane could have stopped it by simply saying "The baby's alive!" Kenny would've been mad, but he wouldn't have killed her.

Case 2: Kenny got Clem and Jane there, and cared more about Clem

Without Kenny, Clem and Jane wouldn't have made it that far. Kenny fixed the truck, Saved Luke from getting killed, and more. Kenny deserved to live more than Jane.

Case 3: She had her own agenda

She didn't care if Kenny lived or died. She just wanted what she wanted. She didn't care if it hurt Clem. She just wanted them alone at any cost.

Case 4: Kenny was justified when he killed her

Kenny thought she killed the baby, and had some good reasons to believe so. Here are some examples.

1. Jane is an able person. If she wanted the baby alive, she would've found a way.

2. Jane had no signs of a walker encounter when it came to marks.

3. Jane was always real strange with the baby, and didn't care about it.

4. Jane is selfish. She would've fed the baby to the zombies to save herself. (what I thought happened until the baby turned up alive).

As you see, Kenny had good reasons to think Jane killed the baby.

Ladies and gentleman, I have proved:

In case one, I proved Jane could've stopped the fight at anytime, and kept one of them from getting killed. She wanted to prove a point and get Clem on her side at any cost.

In case two, I proved that Kenny deserved to live more than Jane.

In case three, I proved Jane had her own agenda, and didn't care about anything she didn't want.

In case four, I proved Kenny had a justifiable reason to kill her.

Thank you! I hand the debate over to Con!


Thanks Pro!

Justifiable: able to be shown to be right or reasonable; defensible.

These are reasons as to why Kenny did NOT have a justifiable reason to kill Jane, and the moral choice should have been to pick Jane. With the endings aside (even though he can ultimately help Clem and AJ), Kenny is and has been more of a problem to the group than Jane. I have also provided a video of the whole episode to prove Pro and I"s points, at the bottom of my argument. (Excuse the commentator)

Reason #1: Mentally Unstable

Although an obvious reason, Kenny has been making bad decision after bad decision due to his anger levels. This has been shown throughout the entire second season, but it really shines in this final episode. Throughout the beginning portion, Kenny does have a good reason to treat Argo like an enemy. However, due to him losing control of his emotions, he lashes out at him during the worst time. (45:00 of the video) During the ice crossing scene, Argo tries to run away, which is understandable, since he does not want to be threatened anymore by Kenny, and has done his job. This sparks Kenny"s anger mode to the extreme. While they are in the house, Clem is freezing because she just fell into the ice. Instead of trying to keep help her find some warmth, he immediately proceeds with confronting Argo. He then lashes out at him, after accusing him of lying about the supplies. Jane, being the focused and productive one, finds the supplies that Argo promised, making Kenny"s assault completely pointless and unproductive. You COULD say that Jane was more focused due to her worrying about Clem, but she does indeed proceed to finding the supplies right away in the other result, where Clem does not fall through the ice. Not only has his anger clouded his judgement, but it kept him from helping his friend from freezing. There is no question that Kenny cares for Clem and AJ, but his anger puts everyone in danger at times. Even when Clem has been trying so hard to change Kenny, he is too set in his ways. During the argument on the drive, he could have gotten into an accident because he was too busy arguing (1:16:56). Even though Jane was pushing his buttons, he technically started it. On top of that, something so stupid like an argument should not distract you when you are in control of everyone"s lives by driving the car.

Reason #2: Refuses to Compromise

Kenny is the best when it comes to conflicting opinions. Realistically, however, this is not helping the group (1:00:18). This episode, Kenny not only stubbornly argues for his plan, he flat out refuses to even consider the rest of the group"s plan, and tells them they are going no where else. Not only that, his plan is a bigger risk than the other plan, which is to go back to Howe"s fort. They know where it is, and it"s only a day"s drive. Even if they don"t find the supplies they need, they can go back to the original plan. Wellington on the other hand, is a shot in the dark. Not only do they not know where it is, it could take them weeks to find. This plan is more dangerous as well, since they are moving to a place that is colder. Not very suitable for the baby. Even during the drive (1:13:00), he refuses to reconsider. Although in Kenny"s ending, they do ultimately find the place they"re looking for, and is willing to let Clem and AJ into the fort without him (They won"t let everyone in), this plan was very risky since the beginning. It could very well have gotten them killed. If you stuck with Kenny to the very end, eventually they"re probably going to find more people, and Kenny will most likely will start more unnecessary arguments.

Reason #3: Causes group members to leave

Although I agree, the said group members did leave in an assholish way, they had a legit reason to do it. Mike, (Bonnie if she lives), and Argo are trying to sneak away, and Clem discovers them (1:07:00). They all are leaving because they can"t stand Kenny, and are also afraid of him. Due to his rage and and stubbornness, they believe Kenny is a threat to the group. Even though Jane prefers to stay it alone, she at least did not drive the others away. Imagine sticking with Kenny after season 3. Would you want this to happen again? Making friends, and having them leave because of Kenny"s uncontrollable rage? Group members are helpful for survival. Even if Jane prefers less people, she still remains with the group for as long as it lasts, and lets you make the decision to let the random family come into Howe"s place during her ending. Kenny ultimately makes things worse by scaring people off.

Reason #4: Did not have a legitimate reason to assault Jane.

(1:23:30) Jane herself states that she did not kill AJ, and that it was an accident. In Kenny"s rage, he refuses to believe her, and assaults her. Don"t try to say Jane used a weapon on him and that it"s wrong either. It was for self defense. She even puts it away, and then Kenny jumps at her again. This causes the knife to be used by Jane, since she feels threatened for her life. Kenny does indeed have a right to be upset, but he does not have any proof that Jane killed/left the baby. Yet due to his anger, he proceeds anyway. Although I do admit that this ploy by Jane was silly (I really wanted them both to live :( ), it did prove it"s point. Throughout the last few seasons, Clem has tried to convince Kenny to change and be more reasonable. However, it"s clear that Kenny is Kenny. Jane did set this up, and she even admit it was stupid. You can tell she expected him to try and kill her. However, you can also tell she did not want it to actually happen that way. If he acted more reasonable, and less like Howe, she would have told him the truth. But he let his anger once again, control him. This time, he didn"t even listen to Clem"s pleas to stop, meaning he will most likely never change.

With these reasons, I have proved that Kenny will be more of a danger to your group if you allow him to live, and that saving Jane is the safer choice to make. He is indeed a good guy deep down. But his anger ultimately puts everyone in danger.

Back to you Pro!
Debate Round No. 2


Rebuttal 1:

My opponent says Kenny has a good reason to treat Argo as a treat, but he went overboard. I would like to say not. When Arvo sprinted across the bridge (to get away from Kenny), Kenny had to sprint to get Arvo which led to walkers noticing and the ice caving in (which led to Luke's death) Arvo was going to escape, so Kenny had to stop him. Arvo isn't innocent either. He shot Clem. I have to understand Kenny's decision to beat the **** out of Arvo, but you can't excuse it.

Sub Point 1: Jane cared about herself

My opponent makes the statement that Jane was more focused due to Clem. While I can't deny that, she did it for her own selfish purposes. After spending so much time alone, Jane saw Clem like her younger self with so much potential. She desperately needed someone to keep her sane, and Clem was that person. She states in one ending "I can't do this alone okay? Is that what you wanted to hear." Jane is a more than able woman, capable of living by herself. So, why does she needs Clem. This confirms she needs Clem to stay sane. Even PewDiePie said in reaction to when Jane said "I didn't know it would escalate that far." Pewds said, "You knew exactly it'd go that far". Which confirms my point, Jane only cares about herself.

Back to the rebuttal.......

The argument was started by Jane. She brought up the subject, asking where they were going to go. Kenny simply stated, "We're headed north." Jane then proceeds to make a big deal, and replies, "What? To find Wellington?" If anything, Jane started the fight.

Rebuttal 2:

Let's get this straight, they were stupid plans. Mike's plan was to go to Texas. Texas?!?!? When they're so far up north in scenic no-where. Jane's plan was to go back to Carver's camp, but I will explain why it is JUST AS RISKY AS WELLINGTON.

1. The place could still be overrun by zombies.

2. If there were any survivors from Carver's camp still alive in there, there would be another shoot out because they killed Carver which would likely lead to someone being killed.

3. Supplies were likely destroyed by collateral damage or taken by looters.

As you can see, going back to Carver's camp would be a huge risk. Just as big as Wellington. Even Pewds said as a response to Jane's plan, "We can't head south right away."

You then make an assumption based on no cold hard facts stating that Kenny would just keep starting fights in another group.

Rebuttal 3:

They leave because of Arvo. It is because they didn't get that Arvo was a threat and was going to get them killed. Kenny gave him what he deserved. My opponent then says that Jane will remain with a group long-term. Has he forgotten episode 3 where she left the group? In the ending, Jane is all for keeping the family out. You make the choice and she follows. In season one, Kenny had a problem with one person. Lilly. Once she was gone, Kenny didn't butt heads nearly as much. If he found a group of nice people, Kenny would and could get along with them.

Rebuttal 4:

Even I find it hard to believe that Jane got the baby killed on accident. To prove that it is possible for Jane to lose the baby on accident, I want you to give me three scenarios in which Jane can lose the baby without a single scratch. Kenny hesitated and thought about it before jumping on her. Kenny thought she killed the baby, which in my point of view, is probably the most likely thing that would've happened. You state Kenny had no good reason to believe Jane killed the baby. I provided you with some, which I will post again.

Kenny thought she killed the baby, and had some good reasons to believe so. Here are some examples.

1. Jane is an able person. If she wanted the baby alive, she would've found a way.

2. Jane had no signs of a walker encounter when it came to marks.

3. Jane was always real strange with the baby, and didn't care about it.

4. Jane is selfish. She would've fed the baby to the zombies to save herself. (what I thought happened until the baby turned up alive).

Here is some good reasons that would led you to believe Jane killed the baby. The ploy by Jane was selfish, and she knew it would escalate that far. Even Pewds said, "She knew it would go that far." Yes, Kenny is Kenny, but Kenny has kept the group alive. Remember when he sacrificed his own eye to save Clem? (Episode 3) My main question to you is why did she do it if she knew it would result in one person being killed, can why didn't she stop it at anytime? You don't even have the name right. It's Carver. If she didn't want anyone to die, then why did she try to kill Kenny without any reason? Jane also didn't listen to Clem's plea to stop either.

You haven't proved anything.

Dropped points by Con:

The reasons I provided that stated Kenny had a reason to kill her.

She had her own agenda.

Without Kenny, Clem wouldn't have made it that far.

Jane wanted to kill Kenny

Points lacking a strong rebuttal:

She could've stopped it at any time.

Thank you! I hand the debate over to Con!

Con For my previous argument.

Rebuttal 1:

My opponent is stating that Jane knew that Kenny would try to kill her, which I will agree on. However, based on what he is trying to prove in this argument, he is also trying to insist that Jane was the only one who could have stopped the fight. Kenny could have stopped it too. Kenny didn't have to start it in the first place. This entire situation was literally all up to Kenny. He was the one who had to make a choice. Either he asks for an explanation and deals with the (fake) truth, or he attacks Jane. Jane didn't attack first. In actually, it's kind of like getting shot was what he deserved for assuming she killed the baby, and not asking what happened first. I doubt she would have set this up if Kenny wasn't dangerous to begin with. He has his uses, but he is also a huge danger to the group. Last time I checked, it wasn't Jane who caused Mike (maybe Bonnie) to leave the group.

Another thing, she used the knife for self defense. She even puts it away, hoping he will calm down, and then he attacks her again. That doesn't seem fair, he has no idea what happened, and he still assumes once again. And no, she doesn't care about just herself. Obviously she cares for Clem, she ultimately saved the group, she has risked her life to save other people. If she really wanted him to die, she could have already let it happened.


Rebuttal 2:

So apparently my opponent thinks that Kenny has done plenty of good, and Jane has done nothing, since he has listed nothing but positives for Kenny, and none for Jane. It's true, without Kenny, they wouldn't have had the truck, and Luke would have died. A minute later however, Kenny would have died as well, if it wasn"t for Jane. She technically saved the baby during the final act. She saved Luke from the trailer home (and attempted to save Sarah, but declared she was a lost cause due to personal experiences she had in the past). If Sarah has fallen off the porch and becomes trapped, there is an option to let Jane go and save her. Although hesitant, she still tries to save Sarah. In the beginning of episode 4, even before developing an emotional attachment with Clem, she goes back to help her and Rebecca get through the horde of walkers. Although she couldn't repair the truck, she taught Clem and the group some useful tips to survive, like covering your scent with walker blood, or kicking a walker's knee, or using more effective weapons. So no, simply listing off some good things Kenny has done, and not listing off any good things Jane has done, does not mean he deserves to live more than Jane.


Rebuttal 3:

"She didn't care if Kenny lived or died. She just wanted what she wanted."

I won't argue with both of these statements. However, that does not make Kenny innocent.


Sub Point: Kenny has done similar things to less deserving

Back in season 1, Lee and Kenny came across a random girl being surrounded by walkers. Lee, thinking of all he can do to help, will consider shooting her, to put her out of her misery. Kenny will insist to let her get eaten alive to avoid drawing attention to themselves. Although he's got a point, he is all up for letting her suffer to avoid risking his safety. There was also the time him and Lilly would argue constantly. Then, before Lilly kills Duck or Carley, he tries to convince Lee to leave her behind. Remember, it was obviously easier to leave her behind after she shoots someone, but Kenny wanted to ditch her before this occurred. And for what? A lot of arguing? Jane has made some cold decisions, but Kenny is also guilty of it. He also "just did what he wanted" as well.


Anyway, yea, she wanted Clem and her alone. But she never went to this much of an extreme to try and separate the others from her and Clem. Her reason for setting up the ploy seems plausible, since Kenny can be a danger to everyone, and she wanted to save Clem the burden of cutting the ties. She was trying to save Clem's life, in her own way.


Rebuttal 4:

I don't agree when you say Kenny has good reasons for killing her. All of your reasons you have given are based on assumptions that Kenny and the player can make, and no proof.

"Jane is an able person. If she wanted the baby alive, she would've found a way."

This does not guarantee everything will go alright. Just because someone is skilled, it doesn't make them perfect. A lot of things can go wrong in this world. Skill does not always equal success.

"Jane had no signs of a walker encounter when it came to marks."

Does she have to have any? What if she tripped, AJ fell out of her hands, and a walker pounced on AJ before she could save him. Then she ran off, knowing it was too late. Too bad we couldn't hear her actual story, because Kenny didn't give her a chance to explain.

"Jane was always real strange with the baby, and didn't care about it."

The only part where we see Jane acting "strange" with the baby is when she was talking to Clem while Kenny is fixing the truck. Kenny has no knowledge of that conversation, so that is not a legitimate reason for Kenny to believe she was acting strange with the baby. Saying she did not care about it is also a stretch, since she has helped take care of it and worried about it. She elected to watch AJ when Kenny is fixing the car. When asking how much food they have, she then immediately asks if there is some for the baby, showing her worry for AJ. Her behavior isn't even strange. It's awkwardness, since she does not have much experience with babies. Just because she is inexperienced and awkward with babies, does not mean she doesn't care about AJ.

"Jane is selfish. She would've fed the baby to the zombies to save herself"

Everyone is selfish in this world. The fact that she is doesn't prove she would purposely kill the baby. Again, assumptions does not equal proof.

So all in all, these reasons are enough for Kenny to SUSPECT she killed the baby, but are not enough to prove it. If he actually saw her do it, then it would obviously be justified for him to kill her. However, there was no proof she did, and he didn't even give her a chance to explain.

So after reviewing your cases, I have come to these official rebuttals for your statements.

Case 1, I have proved that Kenny could have also stopped the fight, and was the one who started it and kept pushing it.

Case 2, I have proved that Jane has as much of a reason to live as Kenny, without bias.

Case 3, I have proved that her agenda was to help the group, and try to save Clem, not just do it for herself.

Case 4, I have proved that the reasons my opponent listed as to why Kenny believes she killed the baby are enough to suspect her of killing the baby, but not enough to prove it, and not enough to justify Kenny killing Jane.


With my previous arguments, I proved:

Kenny is too mentally unstable to make sensible decisions, which puts others in danger.

Kenny refused to compromise with the group no matter what.

Kenny caused group members to leave.

Kenny did not have a good enough reason to try and kill her, which was based off assumptions, and no proof.

Based on these reasons, I have proved that the player"s choice to let Kenny kill Jane is not justified.

Back to you Pro!
Debate Round No. 3


Rebuttal 1:

MY OPPONENT CONCEDED THE FACT THAT JANE KNEW KENNY WOULD TRY TO KILL HER! My main question for you is, if Jane knew Kenny would try to kill her, then why did she go through with her plan? If she knew one of them would die, then why did she go through with it? You totally ignore my reasons that I gave you why Kenny was justified in thinking she killed the baby. Jane could've ended the fight very easily by simply stating "He's alive!" Kenny would've stopped right in his tracks and went to get the baby. My opponent acts like this is all Kenny's fault. However, he totally ignores the fact that when Clem asks her to leave, she says "Not a chance in h***!" He also dropped my previous arguments about her stopping the fight at any time. Jane didn't attack first, but she had every opportunity to end the fight. Now that's just cold. Mike and Bonnie left because of Arvo. I proved Arvo deserved it.

There is something that doesn't make sense in your argument. If Jane knew Kenny would try to kill her, then how could she expect Kenny to calm down? She cares for Clem, as it fits into her plan. Here is where I posted it in my arguments.

" After spending so much time alone, Jane saw Clem like her younger self with so much potential. She desperately needed someone to keep her sane, and Clem was that person. "

End quote.

I have to admit, she did risk her life to save Luke and Sarah. However, she constantly bugged Clem about leaving the group with her. She then wanted to leave Sarah behind when the house was getting overrun. She was wrong, because if Clem makes the right choices, Sarah will stay alive (but die later in the episode).

Rebuttal 2:

Jane has taught Clem some skills, however, this doesn't means she deserves to live more. Explain how she saved the baby. She almost gives up on Sarah instantly once the zombies came in. Here are some more good things Kenny has done.

Fixed the R.V in episode three of season one to save the entire group for bandits.

Saved Lee's life many times.

Almost sacrificed himself to get the walke talke or put Ben out of his misery.

Took the blame for the walke talke so Clem didn't get hurt (he lost his eye as a result).

As you can see, out of the few things you named for Jane, I have named much more good tings Kenny did in my previous argument and this one.

Rebuttal 3:


Rebuttal to Sub Point:

Kenny did this for the better of the group. She was bitten anyways, and they needed the supplies to keep their group alive. Not only his safety, but Lee's, Clem's, Kajaa's, and Duck's! If Lee dies, Clem will have no guardian. Lee keeps her safe through the whole series. I can't see a way where Clem could've lived without him in that time. Kajaa needed Kenny to take care of her and Duck. I would've bet on them to be the first ones to go without Kenny. Also, supplies would've ran very low, causing many people to starve with their already low rations and lose two of their most able group members. So as you can see, Kenny did it for himself and the group.

That is a lie if I ever heard one. Since episode four, Jane keeps bugging Clem to leave the group. A famous quote from Jane was "These people aren't going to last long. Don't let them drag you down with them." Kenny really cared and loved Clem. So, just because she wanted to save Clem the burden of cutting ties, means she's justified in killing Kenny? That makes no sense!

Rebuttal 4:

Tell me why these are so un-reasonable.

I'll grant you that, however, give me three scenarios where Jane would lose the baby.

Then she would have blood stains and cuts or skin irritation from falling. Let's try again.

She was acting strange. She didn't want to cradle it, touch it, interact with it, she even had a problem with watching the baby. She at least needed to try and act like she cared.

You admit Jane is selfish. If it meant her own survival, she would the baby. You have yet to refute that.

Actually Kenny gave her a brief window to explain. After Kenny said, "How could you kill a f***ing child?!?!" "Jane simply stated," It was an accident Kenny." She didn't try to explain herself. She didn't say, "I tripped and there was a walker." She insisted on not explaining.

Dropped arguments:

The plan to go to Carver's camp was as risky as going to Wellington.

He didn't give me the three scenarios I asked for.

Mike left because Arvo.

Kenny would get along with good people.

Arvo was a threat.

All of Pewd's statements.

Conceded arguments:

He conceded Jane didn't care if Kenny lived or died.

He conceded the fact that she knew Kenny would try to kill her.

He conceded Jane just did what she wanted.

Arguments lacking a good rebuttal:

She could've stopped the fight at anytime.

I have proved:

Kenny deserves to live more than Jane.

Kenny had a good reason to suspect Jane of killing the baby.

Jane only cared about herself.

Now let's link this all together....

He conceded that she didn't care if Kenny lived or died, so this would mean she was willing to do anything to him. He also conceded Jane knew he was going to try to kill her. It was also conceded that Jane just does what Jane wants. He barely even trys to refute that she could've stopped the fight at anytime. Piece this together. What does this sound like to you?

To me, it sounds like a motive for murder. This makes her sound mentally un-stable.

I say she wanted Kenny dead so she could have Clem. She didn't care what the cost.

Overall, I'll leave it up to the voters. Go on the facts and see that the player's choice to let Kenny kill Jane is justified. Thank you so much for reading!

Vote Pro!


Obviously my opponent and I are following different rules. It's not his fault, I should have asked. I was under the impression that I was supposed to wait and save my rebuttals that my opponent was giving in round 3 for the final round. Now I will challenge them all


Rebuttal 1: It seems my opponent is defending Kenny when it comes to Arvo. I"d like to say that you"re not looking at it from all perspectives in this case. Yes, Arvo shot Clem, which from our perspectives, is wrong. However, it"s very arguable that Arvo had a justified reason to do it. In episode 4, Clem has the choice to rob Arvo of his supplies. This already makes him hate you. Then during the gunfight, Clem shoots his sister in the face, since she has turned. Arvo however, has no knowledge of his sister turning. To him, it looks like Clem shot her in the face while she was trying to get out of harms way. He never knew his sister turned. Although he is wrong, no one explained to him the truth. I"m sure many people would feel the same way if they saw their sister getting shot in the face"

Also, I don"t agree with you when you say that Arvo caused Luke"s death and the presence of Walkers. There is no proof for either. Luke happened to stumble on a weak part of the ice. There is no proof, nor an indication that this was caused by Arvo running. It just happened. The walkers also showed up before Arvo ran. If anything, there was a group of walkers that was drawn to the gunshot from Clem when Kenny got attacked by a walker, which is RIGHT BEFORE THEY CROSS THE ICE (39:13 my video). The group even states this was loud. Both of these accusations are not Arvo"s fault, it seems like you"re just trying to make him look worse. Can you blame Arvo for trying to run from the man who constantly threatens him?

In your sub point, you insist Jane cares for herself. She came back for CLEM. In the last round, I proved that she doesn't care about just herself, she set up this ploy to get Clem to realize that they should LEAVE Kenny. Can you blame her for wanting to do this? Separate someone you like from someone who will get them killed with his anger? Seems reasonable.

Rebuttal 2: You're right, I forgot about Carver"s men and the overrun of walkers. However, it was still a sound plan. Yes, there are the dangers of his men and the walkers, but all they need to do is scope out the area. If it"s safe, they can search for the supplies. If it"s not safe, or there isn't supplies, they could try Wellington. After all, it is only a days setback. My point which you seem to ignore however, is the fact that Kenny refuses to compromise. Carver"s place was a legitimate plan, that everyone except Kenny would agree to. I understand he has another opinion, but to completely disregard theirs when the rest are in agreement? He kinda sounds like a dictator.

Rebuttal 3: You say they leave because of Arvo. Why? There is no indication for that. (1:07:35) Mike states himself. "Listen, we just got to get away from that guy, Clem. Okay?" They are taking Arvo with them because they don't believe he deserves the treatment he is receiving from Kenny. They want to get away from the dictator.

He then asks me if I have forgotten that Jane left the group. She came back. That's what counts right? You say Jane is all for keeping the family out. Does she force your choice? No, she simply wonders if it's a good idea. And again, what was the reason at first Kenny wanted to leave Lilly for dead? Because they argued a lot? That's pretty cold.


Rebuttal 1:
"My main question for you is, if Jane knew Kenny would try to kill her, then why did she go through with her plan?"
This entire ploy was to convince Clem that Kenny wouldn't change, and that they should leave him. This entire thing was escalated by Kenny. Yes, she knew it would go that far, but was hoping it wouldn't. Her intention was not to kill him. (1:28:35) "I was just... going to try to talk you into coming with me. I just thought if you saw Kenny like that.. you'd know we'd have to leave him." Her plan was for Kenny to overreact, and Clem would be convinced to leave him. No matter how many times you accuse her of it, there is no proof you can provide that says her intention was to kill Kenny. And I did not ignore your reasons that Kenny thought she killed the baby. I had a whole rebuttal last round as to why they weren't good enough to kill Jane. They were enough to SUSPECT her of killing the baby, not prove it.

You also insist that Jane could have stopped the fight at anytime. That's true. However, halfway through the fight, she was justified with wanting to kill him when she started to swing her knife. Jane knew she didn't kill the baby, and had said it was an accident. Kenny is still trying to kill her. I don't know about you, but if someone was accusing me of killing a baby wrongfully, and was trying to kill me, I'd react the same way. Her intention was for Kenny to overreact, not to kill him.

Rebuttal 2: I was not challenging you to list off more good things Kenny has done, I was proving Jane's worth. There's no point in listing off more things. Simply listing off more examples doesn't give Kenny more of a right to live. They've both done good things, and bad things. Of course we've seen more things from Kenny, he has been with us from the beginning. We've only seen Jane for three episodes. She could have done more good things, we just haven't seen them. So no, I disagree with you. The fact that you like Kenny more does not prove who should live.

Rebuttal 3:
"So as you can see, Kenny did it for himself and the group."
Yes he did. That doesn't stop it from being a cold decision. My point was that Kenny is not guilty when it comes to screwing someone over, and that just because Jane has made some cold decisions, doesn't mean Kenny hasn't. Why does that put Kenny on top?

"So, just because she wanted to save Clem the burden of cutting ties, means she's justified in killing Kenny? That makes no sense!"
Don't put words in my mouth. By cutting ties, I meant separate her from Kenny, not kill him, I have never insisted that it was her plan to kill him with this ploy. She believes he is a danger to Clem's life, and she wanted Clem to get away. She was justified with killing Kenny when he tries to kill her, because she knows she didn't kill the baby. Why wouldn't she kill someone who is trying to kill her for something she didn't do.

Rebuttal 4: "Tell me why these are so un-reasonable."
The reasons you gave are reasonable to SUSPECT Jane could have killed the baby. They are un-reasonable as reasons to KILL Jane, as I have stated in my last argument, I will not repeat myself.

I'm not giving you 3 scenarios where Jane would lose the baby. It's pointless. Although unlikely to happen, my scenario is not impossible, which you are implying. As long as there is one possible scenario, it can happen. Not believing doesn't prove that it's false. Also, what makes you think she would get skin irritation from falling on soft snow?

As I said, her awkwardness does not mean she didn't care for the baby. You have ignored the evidence I have provided suggesting that. Had a problem watching AJ? SHE ELECTED TO WATCH HIM!

So in conclusion, all of Pro's reasons to justify Kenny killing Jane are either irrelevant, or are based off assumptions. Assumptions are not enough to prove anything. The reason Kenny killed her was because he thought she killed AJ. Did she? NO. Was it her plan to get him killed? NO. Did Kenny escalate the fight? YES. Based on these reasons, I have proved that Kenny did not have a good reason to commit murder, and that it's not justifiable for the player to let him live. Is it smart to have someone skilled, realistic, and level headed? Or someone who's anger puts everyone in danger? Kenny HIMSELF agrees that Clem made the right choice if you shoot him (1:26:30)

Don't let bias affect your JUDGEMENT

Vote Con! Thank you!
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Cooldudebro 2 years ago
Whoops! I meant Arvo
Posted by QTAY21 2 years ago
Forgot to post the link
Posted by QTAY21 2 years ago
Excuse the excessive quotation marks in place of most of the commas, there was nothing to tell me I was making that error.
Posted by Ragnar 2 years ago
Please do not put the spoilers into the debate title.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Hello83433 2 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Con had two sources while Pro only had one(look in comments for Con's second source) Con also made plenty of claims that proved against the assertion that killing Kenny is justified as well as sparring Jane. Conduct and grammar tied.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Con made a good argument that justified the opposite outcome as justified. But I didn't find anything that truly argued against the notion that not shooting Kenny was UNjustified. Pro gave justification, showing that it was justified to do that. Con justified the alternative, but in the end I didn't find that justification so compelling that it made the opposite one UNjustified. It just made them BOTH Justified, which is perfectly fine--but gives a win to Pro on the resolution.