The Instigator
Dagolas
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
futurepresident7
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The West should give Communism a go

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Dagolas
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/9/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 605 times Debate No: 69707
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

Dagolas

Pro

I'll leave this blank for now. Let's go over the specific terms:

-Communism: True communism, not USSR Socialism but the exact ideas of Marx and Engels.
-The West: Western Europe and the United-States of America.

I as Pro will be arguing why I think they should adopt communism
My opponent as Con will argue why he thinks they should not

Thank you for reading! Feel free to leave comments on what you think of the debate at any point. I hope to have an interesting and rich one!
futurepresident7

Con

I accept.

While Marx and Engels envisioned a society where everyone is valued for their work equally and a state of collective ownership exsists, the reality of that is far from ideal.

Communism, while good in ideal does not create the utopia it promised.

1.) Communism, while starting out In its purest form, allows too much power to be concentrated in the hands of a small elite.
2.) A communistic society provides no incentive to work hard.
3.) Most communistic societies have devolved into dictatorships.

Rarely have communistic economies succeeded.
Rarely have communistic societies allowed political freedom.

Communism has 2 big problems:

1.) There is little incentive to contribute to society.
2.) Once people get such tremendous power, history shows they like to keep it.
While a Marxist society can start out like Marx envisioned, they most often end up with crumbling economies, widespread misery, and with authoritarian dictatorships in charge.

I will explain these points in further detail in later rounds.

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.
The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

-Winston Churchill
4.)
Debate Round No. 1
Dagolas

Pro

I offer my riposte.

(Communism, while starting out In its purest form, allows too much power to be concentrated in the hands of a small elite.)

That is true, unfortunately. All systems except true Anarchy have flaws, and this is one of pure Communism. The thing is, was never meant, at least in Marx's ideal, to be a permanent solution. More of a gateway. Indeed, Marx stated that to get a utopic, perfect society, governments would have to go through five stages:
Tribalism(Basic Communism)-Slave Society-Feudalism-Capitalism-Socialism-Communism-Anarchy

He wanted to start off with an unpure communism after socialism. For comprehension and argument's sake, I've called his idea of pure communism "Anarchy".

2.) A communistic society provides no incentive to work hard.

It's true that in Modern-day Capitalism, more pay is used as an incentive. In a communistic society with marginally inexistant pay, there is no incentive. Here, unfortunately, some totalitarian tactics would have to be used: rather harsh incentives. You could easily give people a certain ration of food based on how much they work: normal work gets you good portions, and overworking gets you more. Since in Communism everyone has a job, only slackers would be penalized (and they'd still eat, albeit not well. The point is not to kill them!)

3.) Most communistic societies have devolved into dictatorships.

Ah, that is where we hit the gem. The USSR, Cuba, North Korea, China... All became dictatorships. But they were never, EVER Communist: they were all 100% socialist. Historians and economists refer to the USSR as a "State Capitalist", a sort of pseudo-Communism. Privatized organizations which were not state-run DID exist, but only for rich people or Stalin's friends (who could access the free market). Lenin until his death also allowed the NEP, which was essentially the polar opposite of communism.

(Rarely have communistic economies succeeded.)

For they did not truly embrace communism.

(Rarely have communistic societies allowed political freedom.)

A socialist, totalitarian government is not communist.

Communism has 2 big problems:

(1.) There is little incentive to contribute to society.)

See above. Bear in mind the poor people of the USSR loved the idea, only the rich Koulaks (who got killed anyway) didn't like it. They hold their values with such conviction they killed their cows and eat all their wheat rather than giving it to others. There isn't "little incentive", there's just greedy capitalists who stay over from the Tsar (or capitalist) reign.

2.) Once people get such tremendous power, history shows they like to keep it.

But unfortunately all great legacies crumble, see the Poem Ozymandias. No one must be allowed power.

(While a Marxist society can start out like Marx envisioned, they most often end up with crumbling economies, widespread misery, and with authoritarian dictatorships in charge.)

Different times. You'll notice Monarchy-based societies have evolved a lot. I'm confident Communism could work TODAY. After all, Nazism doesn't exist anymore, so why can't the opposite happen in a century?

For your last quote of Churchill, I'm pretty sure he was an Anarchist. His views on Capitalism and democracy:

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." He had similar views on "the failure of Capitalism".
futurepresident7

Con

futurepresident7 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Dagolas

Pro

Arguments extended as opponent forfeited.
futurepresident7

Con

futurepresident7 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Dagolas

Pro

Arguments extended as opponent forfeited.
futurepresident7

Con

futurepresident7 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Dagolas

Pro

Dagolas forfeited this round.
futurepresident7

Con

futurepresident7 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Josh_debate 2 years ago
Josh_debate
Communism should just be completely abolished, I don't care much for Marx and Engels. Instead I lean more to the ideas of Adam Smith.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Varrack 2 years ago
Varrack
Dagolasfuturepresident7Tied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: FF