The Instigator
Schopenhauer
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Kumquatodor
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The Will To Defend Ideals

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/29/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 711 times Debate No: 44860
Debate Rounds (5)
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Schopenhauer

Pro

I will be arguing that when we have the will to protect what we hold to be the ultimate ideals, even to the peril of our lives, we live the good life. No trolling
Debate setup
First round- Acceptance
Second round- Opening Arguments
Third round- Rebuttals
Fourth round- Second argument (influenced by rebuttals)
Fifth round- Rebuttals, summarization of ideas, closing comments.
Definitions
The Good Life- A life of meaning and significance
Will- The force of our minds to endure, continue, prosper, and uphold
Clarification- I will be arguing that through our will to defend the ideals we hold dear (ex. truth, loyalty, honor) we live a life of significance and meaning even if it means endangering our lives.
Any other definitions needed will be posted in the comments section if you need them.
I wish my opponent luck, and hope this debate will make others re evaluate their own ideals and beliefs, and change minds.
Kumquatodor

Con

I accept.

Nihilism FTW!
Debate Round No. 1
Schopenhauer

Pro

Thank you for accepting, let the discussion and debate begin.
The only way we give our lives meaning is by defending the ideals we believe to matter truth, loyalty, etc.) When we fail to defend these ideas we fail to defend what we give meaning. Our own lives are short, and relatively pointless compared to the ideals that characterize us and shape us. When we defend ideals we gain a form of immortality through them, as these ideals are associated through the echoes of time as part of the men we were. When you grind down a man you find that the only thing that shapes us is our ideals, without them we are nothing.
Whether or not these ideals actually exist and have pertinence is irrelevant, when we defend them we give our livers meaning in an otherwise meaningless world and universe. Our ideals keep us enclosed in the fragile shell of sanity, and when we have them we can cling to something besides the eternal chaotic maelstrom that is our universe. You see, because of what we consider ideals, humanity may prosper. What is the point of knowledge and its pursuit if it is a meaningless ideal? Well, it is meaningless, but humanity is what gives it meaning. Without giving abstract concepts meaning, advances in our species never would occur, and soon the progress we have achieved tumbles down, a pointless house of cards.
Now I will say this, I myself am a nihilist, but more of an existentialist nihilist. I would argue that because the man is always searching, always looking, perceiving, and interrogating the world around him, ideals, even if they are a fabrication are necessary. We might as well never have existed if we don't take a stand for what we believe in, because it is in this stand, this act of defiance against an uncaring universe, that we become true men and women, that we finally achieve what is a meaningful existence.
Why waste our time endangering our lives if we can secretly hold on to our ideals without facing persecution? Because when you are endangering your own life to an ideal you are showing the ultimate sacrifice to that ideal. You are showing that your life though it may be short can be given meaning in those few short years, that when we give it meaning we live the good, no great life. This is the one ideal of humanity that I van universally respect, giving a great sacrifice for a powerful ideal.
Thank you for reading, I wait for your response.
Kumquatodor

Con

I would respond, but I'll wait till next round for rebuttals.
_______________________________________________
Let me, for a moment, paint a picture in your head.

It is of a rectangular piece of cloth. It has red and white stripes all over, except for a corner section. That corner section is blue, sprinkled with white stars.

What is it?

It is a collection of atoms, in a solid state, that is such a surface that photons reverbriate off of and on to the photosensitive cells located in specific prmates' head.

What does this... thing... mean? What meaning can be taken from a collection of atoms, in a solid state, that is such a surface that photons reverbriate off of and on to the photosensitive cells located in specific prmates' head in such a way that said primates see a rectangular piece of cloth with red and white stripes all over, except for a blue corner section, which is sprinkled with white stars?

Among other things, this collection of atoms, in a solid state, that is such a surface that photons reverbriate off of and on to the photosensitive cells located in specific prmates' head in such a way that said primates see a rectangular piece of cloth with red and white stripes all over, except for a blue corner section, which is sprinkled with white stars, means "freedom", "hope", and "liberty".

Now, what value can we take from this overly-longly-titled-atomic-clump?

None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

This flag, though rife with meaning, has no value.

Just so you understand, value is worth.

This "flag" has no worth.

A dog would pee on rug regardless of whether or not the rug bore a flag design.



So, seeing as value is a completely relative to whoever, and, indeed, whatever you are, then the question arrises: CAN WE ASSIGN VALUE?

The answer to this is a very depressing no.

Let us imagine a trinket... a necklase... passed down from mother to daughter for a thousand years. Of course, this is a no-name family. Meek, middle-class, unaccomplished. The most recent mother, umm... Todd is the last in the line. Why? Because some psycho named, umm... the de-intestinizer(!)... called his friends over. They preceded to gang rape Todd for hours. When they got bored, they locked her in her cellar. When her husband finally finds her, de-hydrated and starving, and she tells him of the atrocity that occured days earlier. When he finds out, he takes her to the council of... umm... beards. They declare her to have broken sacred Beard law, and order her to be executed. Of course, the unborn baby is innocent. This does not matter, though, because no one knows he exsists. She is executed and burried, and the ancient tradition of trinket-passing-downing is forgotten.

Do you know what the funny part is? This actually happened. Sure, it didn't involve the de-intestinizer(!) or Todd, but this kind of thing has happened before. Maybe it was the tradition of hugging everyday, or maybe it was the walk down the beach, but a tradition was ended due to arbitrary circumstances, a random injustice.

I have an even funnier story. It goes like this:
James is walking down the street. He gets hit by a car. The end.

Value is something held by individuals. Bland, temporary individuals. No one remembers. No one cares.
___________________________________________________________
What do these things have to do with "ideals"?

They are both pointless.
They are both ended in random, be it a car wreck or a commet or a gravitational crunch or a heat-death.
They both hold no value.
______________________
Have you heard of... Geoff Smith? He died of... I don't know. I kinda get confused over who's who. 170,000 die every day. Who stood for what? No one remembers.

And the 170,000 everyday will be forgotten by the time the large crunch comes around.

Value is something held by individuals. Bland, temporary individuals. No one remembers. No one cares.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Interesting experience, ask a bi-polar person if life is valuable.

"My gosh, life is great! It is amazing! Incredible!"
"No!"

If you lack a bi-polar one, a baseball bat will suffice.

"Yes!" *SMACK!*
"Whazza... what's life?" *SMACK*
"..."

Value is just determined by our brain chemistry (very alterable, BTW).
___________________________________________________________


All meaning is non-valuable. A sufficiently crazy person can prove that. For them, "purple" means "orange".



So just laugh, laugh at the pointlessness! Laugh at the lack of value! You know you want to...
________________________________________________________________________________
Debate Round No. 2
Schopenhauer

Pro

I apologize. But I will not be able to continue this debate and I will not be on this website for a while. I forfeit all rounds, and perhaps I will be able to debate this topic with you again at another time. Once more I apologize greatly, and hope in the future for this debate to be able to be re established. Thank you, and everyone vote con.
Goodbye everyone, and I do hope to visit you over the internet another time.
Kumquatodor

Con

Kumquatodor forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Schopenhauer

Pro

Schopenhauer forfeited this round.
Kumquatodor

Con

Kumquatodor forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Schopenhauer

Pro

Schopenhauer forfeited this round.
Kumquatodor

Con

Kumquatodor forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
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