The Instigator
BillionBrainCells
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
donald.keller
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

The World Would Be A Better Place Without Relegion

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
donald.keller
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/10/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 927 times Debate No: 66741
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (3)

 

BillionBrainCells

Pro

Religion inspires people to kill. It devides humanity. If relegion never existed, this world would be closer to peace.
donald.keller

Con

Have at it. I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
BillionBrainCells

Pro

Islamic Jihadist - Have killed tens of thousands in the past 12 centuries because they do not share their ideology. Modern day, look at isis.. convert or be killed.
Aztec's - 20,000 human sacrifices a year to please their gods.
Catholic crusades - 500,000 + killed.
Salem Witch Hysteria - 12 killed over religious nonsense.
30' years war - 800,000 killed.

lets not lie to each other, Adolf Hitler was a baptized catholic who killed 6 million jewish people because they were.. Jewish.

The pilots of 9/11 did what they did for allah and 20+ virgins.

Atheist make up 0.07% of the federal prison population, catholics 24%, protestant 28%, muslim 5%

it is irrefutable that religion has played a role in a vast majority of warfare in human history. It serves as yet another thing that divides us.
donald.keller

Con

Thank you for the quick reply.

Pro should understand his has taken on a massive Burden of Prove. It is Pro's job to prove his proposed theory of what a world without Religion would look like.


Rebuttal I: Death Counts:

There are many issues with Pro's case. This involves massive generalizations of large and complicated events. The first being the 30 Years War. Despite common belief, this wasn't much of a religious war. While the conflict started as a religious issue, no more than five years in and it was a war of politics. This is seen with the entrance of Catholic French on the Protestant side, and the fighting that took place between groups of the same religion. The Habsburg Dynasty ruled both Spain and the Holy Roman Rmpire, causing tensions between them and France, and ultimately the 30 Years Wars was between the France and the Habsburgs. Most of the war had little to do with religion, but was a war of governments (1).

The Crusades were much the same. The war wasn't religious, even if the cause was. In reality, the war started because of the constant invasions of Byzantine by the agressive Turks. The Turks, in turn, came into the region after the spread of the Mongols forced them to find a new home. It would have never mattered if the Arabs weren't Muslim and the Europeans weren't Christian. The Mongols led to a line of events causing the Crusades. The idea of fighting in the name of God was more a ploy to unite Europe against someone other than themselves. Another ploy would have been found, otherwise. And even then, only the First Crusade was tied to religion in any notable way. The rest were fighting to maintain as much victory as possible. Some didn't even include a second Religion.

Discussing death counts, most deaths "in the name of God" merely used God has an excuse. Religion didn't cause most 'religious' death, but was instead used as a scapegoat. But let's discuss Atheism. In the past century, almost 12-20 million are believed to have been murdered in Stalin's attempts to spread Atheism (2). This doesn't mean that the world would be better without Atheism. It simply means that Religion is not deathlier than Atheism. Pro may try to blame Religion, since it was a War against Religion. This would basically be blaming the victim, and saying "It's not the rapests vault there are rape victims. Perhaps if there weren't rape victims, rapists wouldn't rape people." Hopefully one can see the flaw in that logic.

That being said, we have no way of knowing how many deaths would have not happened if Religion didn't happen, as religion was not often the true cause of death. Nor was Religion worse than Atheism.

As for 9/11, it wasn't any worse than a number of non-religious terror attacks. In fact, Leftist groups have made up a massive portion of Terror Groups, some worse than anything Islam has ever created, such as the IRA (3).

[1] http://tinyurl.com...
[2] http://tinyurl.com...;
[3] http://tinyurl.com...
[]

Rebuttal II: Hitler Was Catholic:

So? If he was atheist, he would have still wiped out 6 million Jews. This isn't a religious thing. Pro has basically said:

A is B.
A did C.
A did C because A is B.

Hitler killed the Jews because they were doing well after the depression hit, and Hitler could blame them for everything and create a common enemy for Germany. His religion wasn't involved in their deaths. While we are at it... Martin Luther King Jr. was a baptist. Buddha and Confucius were also religious, and their legacies may just be two of the largest sources of peace and charity in the world. So Pro's point is rather mute.

Rebuttal III: Prisons

Pro brings up a fallacious claim. He assumes that because 99.93% of prisoners are religious, that 99.93% of crimes must have been sparked by religion in some way. In reality, only 0.00011% of all crimes are religious hate crimes (4, 5). So why is the prison population so religious? An extremely high rate of conversion in prison. Prisoners often look to religion to aid in rehabilitation and/or to find a niche or group to be apart of.

[4] http://tinyurl.com...
[5] http://tinyurl.com...
[]

Argument I: The Benefits of Religion:

Western Education was a major accomplishment of Religion. After the Fall of Rome, most pre-modern schools were founded by the Catholic Church. These include Oxford, Harvard, and Yale. Pro might say that these groups would have been founded none-the-less... But it would have taken much longer, by entire centuries. The Church didn't found schools for the fun of learning. They had reasons that are built into their history...

After the Fall of the Roman Empire, it was, in fact, Christianity that saved Europe from a dark age. The Catholic Church preserved the knowledge of Rome in libraries and Monasteries around Europe. Without the vast reaching church, much of Europe would have lost the knowledge that Rome left behind. After so many centuries, the Church put this knowledge to work in the form of schools like Oxford, that began an age of learning and education that Europe would have otherwise not known for centuries (because of a lack of a massive central group and the loss of so much knowledge). The Church was also the only group strong enough and organized enough after Rome to mass produce manuscripts, preserving the accomplishments of Rome and keeping Europe modern. The Church lead to the funding of much of the Middle Age's science, and was a crusial part of the era's intellectual salvation (6).

Christianity also lead to an almost immediate increase in charity and public aid after it got a foothold in Europe. No other group at the time was large enough or capable of such actions (7).


The Muslims also accomplished much. It was religion that led to incrible strides in numerous mathematical principles we know today, such as algabra and trigonometry, all for religious perpuses like Islamic Inheritance laws. Islam helped create a prospering civilization of science and medicine never seen prior, and opened the Middle East to a tolerance and cultural revolution it wouldn't see again.

Many assume Christianity was responsible for increasing life expectancy through out Rome. Christianity also revolutionized the culture at the time, and began a major force for peace. It's often believed that Barbarians from Germany adopted Christianity because the war-like ways they had prior had led to the death of too many sons in the ongoing conflict with Rome. This conversion to peace is seen when the Visigoths invaded and sacked to city of Rome. Religion was the main cause behind the lack of slaughter and the surprisingly restrained destruction. Such restraint was unbelievable at the time.

[6] http://tinyurl.com...
[7] http://tinyurl.com...

Argument II: Religious Charity in the World Today:

While Pro attempted to list off bad things he believed religion was responsible for, Religion today is responsible for a great deal of good. Christian NGO's alone are responsible for over $8 bn in international aid (8) while the US gave over $96 bn to religious causes in 2014 (9). This doesn't include the amount of donations given to non-religious groups for religious reasons. The NGO's alone make over half of all international Aid from the US.

"Faith-based and secular humanitarian organizations have a long history of responding to people in need and today are important players in the international community’s response to emergencies." - ICRC

"Faith-based organizations are unique players in the international humanitarian community in that they are rooted in their local communities and yet have global reach. Their large constituencies give faith-based organizations the potential to play a powerful role in advocacy and public awareness. With their presence on the ground, in the most remote parts of every country, they are well positioned to take action when emergencies arise." - ICRC

Religion is a major player in helping in the healing of places like Africa.

[8] http://tinyurl.com...;
[9] http://tinyurl.com...;
Debate Round No. 2
BillionBrainCells

Pro

BillionBrainCells forfeited this round.
donald.keller

Con

You know what I could use.... Some pie... Any pie. Cherry pie, apple pie, pumpkin pie... pot pie, mud pie, creampie, blueberry pie, blackberry pie, cream pie, key lime pie.

Mmmmmmmmmm. Pie.....
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by donald.keller 2 years ago
donald.keller
I should mention that he challenged me...
Posted by donald.keller 2 years ago
donald.keller
BBC Closed his account some time after I posted my round. I assume I'll be winning the other debate too... I was hoping for a real Debate though :(
Posted by donald.keller 2 years ago
donald.keller
BBC Closed his account some time after I posted my round. I assume I'll be winning the other debate too... I was hoping for a real Debate though :(
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
donald gonna win, 100%.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
You don't listen very well ,do you?I never said I am catholic. I started reading the bible 40 years ago and that did in my catholic religion for me. The bible never led me to rome .Those priests should have been arrested and put behind bars. But the unsaved catholic hierarchy swept it under the rugs.

God says that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. I believe I will take his word over yours anytime.
Posted by BillionBrainCells 2 years ago
BillionBrainCells
"100%" of wars being motivated by money is simply not true.

A Holy War exist for the soul purpose of eradicating conflicting religious beliefs.

You still are yet to prove that an atheist is more likely to do wrong than a person with religious beliefs.

If everyone acted the way jesus "did" in the bible this world would be a much better place. The problem is not jesus, but the humans that run "his church". You cant deny the crusades. You cant deny male children being sexually violated by priest. A man can not marry another man because that's not natural, but it apparently is natural for a man to have no physical relations with a woman because he has "dedicated" himself to God.

Let me ask you something and please answer this: If I'm a gay 17 year old male who whole heartedly believes in catholicism and come from an incredibly catholic family what's more likely to take place?:
A.) Tell my parents im a homosexual, and due to modern catholicism, have them think something is wrong with me and view me differently for the way I was born.
B.) "Dedicate" myself to God and become a priest.

There is a reason the priest were touching little boys and not little girls. For christ sake they live together, open your eyes. Very few straight men would even slightly consider a life without women.

Your way of thinking is very typical of the common catholic. "My religion is the only true religion and jesus is my savior" because an old book tells you so. It's not about that, It's about what has taken place since the book was completed 2,000 years ago.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
I disagree with you. 100% of wars are from the love of money.All evil is rooted in the love of money or domination.

God gave man dominion over all the works of his hands.Man fell . And that dominion was perverted. One thing God never gave man dominion over was one another.We are never commanded to force anyone to believe the gospel( good news).We tell people the words of Jesus and the rest is up to them and God.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Ill tell you where the catholic bibles were. Hid out in monestaries. Once the bible was free to the folks, that got rid of the dark ages.I was catholic, and I know they put little value in scripture.I have been to hundreds of churches and have never even once heard anything but taking personal responsibility for your actions.

God did not make hitler. Hitler did that all on his own. Just like you . You think the way you do all on your own.All those tyrants were never Christian. Jesus said, " love your neighbor as yourself. Do to others as you would they did to you.Give to the poor, freely you have received, freely give.We Christians do not follow religions, but the words of Jesus. Not the pope or some priest. You are right about one thing. Religion is a killer. The bible says that it is a whore of Babylon. Drunk with the blood of the saints. It was the religious people Jesus had the hardest time with. The folks loved him.Jesus healed the sick, raised the dead, gave to the poor, and paid the price for our transgressions. Just what about those things are you opposed to?

It is sad people cannot see things as they are.
Posted by BillionBrainCells 2 years ago
BillionBrainCells
Let's talk about priest molesting little boys.. They were holding bibles in on hand and "pp's" in the other. Your making the ridiculous assumption that religion is what holds society together.. Sorry, it's laws.

The Catholics killed half a million people due to their beliefs.. Where were their bibles then?

"I'm not talking jihads" sorry, Islam is a religion.. I guess when Islam kills its awful, but when the crusades happen we over look them. Medal detectors to keep the "ungodly" out.. Perhaps we should tape bibles to a door frame and make them walk through.. If they don't drop dead they're good to go.

When 90%+ of wars are due to religion, how can you possibly defend it as a positive aspect of humanity?

It's about time we step back and apply some common sense.. There is no big man in the sky. We are product of molecules and chemicals in a rapidly expanding universe that we could never comprehend in size. Once we get past that, we can start treating each other as family.

God made hitler, Stalin, bin laden.. And so on.. Sounds like a good dude. 2,000 years ago, before education, God was good enough to keep the idiots in line and make them feel important and immortal.. Just be good and you'll forever be in paradise. Now drink my blood and put money in the basket, I'll see you next Sunday.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
biullion........ There is a time in the near future that you will get your desires. All real Christians will be gone. And you will have this planet without our influence. It will take but 7 years for you to be on the edge of total annihilation. We will have to come back to stop the mess YOU made.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
BillionBrainCellsdonald.kellerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by Bennett91 2 years ago
Bennett91
BillionBrainCellsdonald.kellerTied
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Vote Placed by Tweka 2 years ago
Tweka
BillionBrainCellsdonald.kellerTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: FF. Arguments are not refuted. No sources by Pro but only blank and basic assertions.