The average Jedi Master can beat the average Sith Lord
Debate Rounds (4)
The average Jedi Master would be somewhere around the power levels of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu. The average Sith Lord would be around the power levels of Darth Vader and or Darth Revan.
BOP will be on both Pro and Con.
To say that these two Jedi would be more powerful than the two Sith Lords all comes down to 3 traits I think: causes of downfall, fighting ability, and success in life. I'll start with causes of downfall:
Obi-Wan and Mace Windu weren't technically overpowered, they surrendered themselves and were back stabbed by an idiotic kid in a poorly acted movie, respectively. Revan was absorbed into the force as a jedi, so he wasn't really beaten either. The only person in this comparison who died in battle was Exar Kun. The reason I bring this up is that Exar Kun, as I mentioned before, is of similar ranking in Sith history compared to Obi-Wan and Mace. His cause of downfall was at the hands of Luke Skywalker (and not movie Luke Skywalker with much to learn, grand master Luke Skywalker in all his glory) after he separated his soul from his body. Furthermore, Luke couldn't defeat him alone, several of his best pupils had to work together to banish Kun forever. If this caliber in Sith history can almost defeat arguably the greatest Jedi Master ever alongside his greatest pupils, imagine the power of the greater Sith. That condition points to the Sith being dominant power wise, let's look at another comparison: Fighting ability.
In the case we have a bit of a dual parallel. Exar Kun, while later in life became an immensely powerful dark side sorcerer was a duelist for a good portion of his time. He used a flurry of ever changing techniques in saber to saber combat to keep his opponents off balance with his trademark saber staff. Made Windu was also strongly connected to the force but again is a very powerful duelist, he managed to very nearly kill Darth Sideous in battle had Anakin not interfered. Who was more powerful though? All things considered Exar Kun had another very powerful duelist fight him in Vodo-Siosk Baas. Baas was another historical renowned duelist and arguably had more skill than Windu himself. Kun defeated him easily as a Sith Lord. Kun could also more than likely defeat Windu as his skill with the art of his fighting style. In combat, Kun used nonspecific form and often changed it to counter whatever his opponent threw at him. I find it difficult to comprehend Mace Windu overcoming this, and so in battle I find it rather easy to see Kun defeating Windu. Another parallel is Revan and Obi-Wan. Both were more of a balanced attack between force and saber skills, leaning slightly towards the lightsaber in combat. Obi-Wan was an excellent swordsman but Revan was easily better. Obi-Wan had only Anakin and maybe Grevious to show for his saber ability and his force abilities were just not quite up to par with Revan. Revan had so much more, defeating the fully functional Mandalorian army that Obi-Wan was overpowered by several times when they were fragments of their former selves. He was far more adept in the nature of using the force demostrsting abilities far beyond that of Kenobi. Once again, the Sith triumph in power in this contest. Let's look at another aspect: success in life.
Obi-Wan and Mace Windu were no failures, they were some of the clone wars' greatest generals. Obi-Wan trained Luke Skywalker himself. The Sith; however, still have the upper hand in my eyes. Exar Kun wanted one thing: power, the basis of this debate. He got it in boat loads. While an excellent duelist, he also was a legendary Sith sorcerer and I reiterate: he seperated Grand Master Luke Skywalker's very soul from his body. Kun succeeded entirely in his quest for power and held onto it longer than almost all other Jedi or Sith. Revan led a Sith revolution that would have evolved into an empire had he not been betrayed by Darth Malak and he too succeeded greatly in his goals as a Sith until that point, conquering multitudes of planets. For the third time, the Sith show their power to be higher.
Looking at the overall structure of two pairs of equal and opposite Jedi and Sith, I find there to be no contest in the Sith having superior power. They simply have an edge over the Jedi that is hardly ever overcome by sheer force on the Jedi's part. A Sith's most common downfall is other Sith but what's a Jedi's most common downfall? Sith. Look at the facts people. The Sith are more powerful than the Jedi.
(1.) Causes of Downfall
(2.) Fighting Ability
(2.) Success in Life
Now, as I said earlier in my debate "I believe the average Jedi Master can beat the average Sith Lord". You referenced Exar Kun several times throughout your argument (Well thought out, I might add). However, Exar Kun was no average Sith Lord. He was easily one of the greatest of all time. (Among Darth Plagieus, Malgus, and Sideous). A more comparable match up with Exar Kun would be someone along the power levels of Yoda or Luke. Remember, I said average. Not above average.
I will reference two battles that solidify my claim.
(1.) Anakin vs Obi-Wan: Both were beyond evenly matched. Having trained and fought alongside each other for years each knew each other's strengths and weaknesses. Now remember, Anakin's mid chlorian count was through the roof, vastly more so than Kenobi's. Yet, who one? Kenobi did. In the end, the Sith's recklessness and anger got the best of Him, and the Jedi's cooler and calmer head prevailed. This mind set would be the deciding factor in a fight.
(2.) Obi-Wan and Darth Maul: This one is a bit different and may be more reflective of Kenobi's skill level. At the time Kenobi was still a padawan or jedi knight. I can't remember. Either way, he managed to defeat Darth Maul one on one after He slayed Qui-Gon.
(3.) Mace Windu vs Darth Sideous: Clearly Mace took this fight. Without a doubt. If it hadn't been for Anakin's betrayal the Sith Empire would've been destroyed then and there. Lightsaber styles also come into play here. Windu practiced a style known as "Vaapad" which made him use his anger and dance the line between light and dark when in combat. The style was effective enough to beat Sideous and almost end him.
These are clear evidences of Jedi Master's beating average Sith Lords. Not god-caliber Sith Lords like Exar Kun.
I would also use Starkiller, who as a Jedi Knight beat both Darth Vader and Sideous. One after the other.
Now in response to your fight references and Exar Kun remark: yes, Exar Kun is one of the greater Sith Lords of all time but Mace Windu was one of the greats among the Jedi too. You said it yourself, he almost bested Sideous had Anakin not interfered. Sideous however, I think is overrated. His only real accomplishment was he was smart and managed to form a master plan to overtake the Galaxy. Combat wise he wasn't the best and this debate is about who wins in a fight. He also didn't really beat Yoda. Yoda conceded after he had a vision of training Luke and fled even though he really could've won. Therefore, while Sideous was smart and an excellent Sith Lord, he's not one to represent them in the matter if combat. Still, Mace's victory over him was no small feat, nor were any of his multiple other accomplishments and that's why I believe he warrants Exar Kun's place in this debate. That being said, I'll respect your input and take him out after one final note: you said he should be compared to Luke or Yoda. Like Mace Windu vs. Darth Sideous, Exar Kun had Luke beaten, only through the power of some of his greatest pupils saving him was he able to survive. I'm willing to place a fair bet Kun could beat Skywalker one on one with that fact in place.
As for Anakin vs Obi-Wan; I think Obi-Wan's victory over Anakin is a little over-credited as well. Yes Anakin was powerful but as I said before, he was nothing but failed potential. During that fight Anakin was still divided within himself and hadn't quite fully accepted the dark side of the force. Thus, he didn't get his true power from it and let's face it; he was an idiot. Obi-Wan was a far more mature Jedi and was superior to Anakin because of the latter's immaturity. Knowledge was the only reason Anakin survived that long. There's one more point I'd like to make regarding Anakin before I move on here, it's clear he was pretty weak among Sith in history. That weak of a Sith Lord marched up to the Jedi temple and killed everyone. Yes he had the 501st, but they could only do so much against the entire temple. He also managed to beat two other great Jedi in Master Cin Drallig and his highly skilled apprentice Serra Keto, Cin could easily be considerd a more than average Jedi master and he was killed by an idiotic Sith amateur. Goes to show the comparasin...
Finally, Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul was again Obi-Wan causing stupidity from an immature Sith Lord to be his downfall. Darth Maul had very few things to show for Dark Side force abilities; I can only remember him using 2 force abilities in his entire fight against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan (push and throwing stuff to open a door). He was simply a meat headed brute with a big stick. The reason he was so easily bested by Obi-Wan yet managed to defeat Qui-Gon was because Qui-Gon had a very saber oriented style of combat, with the exception of meditation that did him little good. Qui-Gon, while strong with this, fell victim to evolution. Maul was a Dathomirian male, it's near impossible to beat one as a human with just your lightsaber. Use the force Qui-Gon! (Pun intended). Obi-Wan was smart enough to use that and look how quickly Darth Maul fell. Once again, Maul was a meathead, not a Sith Lord.
My point on Revan still stands, and I'll repeat one of the finer points: he beat an army of troops that Obi-Wan couldn't best when they were ragtag terrorists. As for someone else to take Kun's place, I'll throw in Marka Ragnos. Who else to represent the Sith in combat? Ragnos was a duelist extrodinare, beheading an amazing fighter in Lord Simus and taking control of the Sith Empire. He was unmatched in skills with the lightsaber, and most likely the best in Star Wars up to date. I have no trouble seeing him beating Windu and Obi-Wan in combat because of his sheer skill in dueling. Now we all know saber skills make not the Sith, and Ragnos had not only saber skills to show. In relation to the force he managed to create a scepter capable of quite literally siphoning the force from several places. He also created a pair of gauntlets that augmented the power of the force in their wielder. In parallel, there were many Sith more powerful than he was and yet he still has much more to show than some of the highest level Jedi out there.
Finally there's something many people should notice. Sith Empires happen REALLY often and tend to last REALLY long, just look at Darth Vitiate. The Sith when allowed to really tap into the dark side tend to eradicate most things standing in their way, including Jedi on countless occasions. Plus, most of the time the Jedi vastly outnumber the Sith. Therefore, the Sith in history, when compared to other Jedi of equal or greater caliber, seem to come out on top here.
Throughout your points you named the main downfall of each Sith, and that was stupidity/recklessness. I think this would be the deciding factor between an average Jedi Master and a average Sith Lord.
There's a difference between being clever/devious and wise/intelligent. Sith are without a doubt some of the most devious and clever people in the Star Wars Universe, however...the Jedi have been shown before to win battles against stronger Sith through being wise, keeping their cool throughout a fight, and noticing the chink in the Sith's armor.
Take Kit Fisto for example. Yes, he was killed by Sideous (I thought this was more of a result of bad writing, but oh well.) however, one of the greatest traits He had was his attitude. He had a laid back personality that allowed Him to keep his cool during combat and outlast Grevious (Who killed plenty of powerful Jedi) and kill Darth Maul (In a made up scenario created by George Lucas in a book) . This type of persona was shared by Qui-Gon Jinn along with other Jedi.
I think skill and force ability is really important, however attitude is as well. The average Sith Lord will come rushing, slicing and striking with nothing held back. Powered by the Dark Side of the Force, a veil of red mist from all of his fury covering his inner eye. Meanwhile, the average Jedi Master will calmly and cooly meet each strike, channeling the Light Side to give him the reflexes necessary to block each quick strike. Eventually the Jedi will either wear down the Sith, or bring about his undoing through sheer wit. The calm and coolness will prevail over the fury (which will eventually burn out). When in a state of fury a Sith won't be focusing on how to manipulate his environment, instead he'll be focused on just killing the person in front of Him. A Jedi would use this to his undoing.
I will also use another well known Jedi. Meetra Surik (The Jedi Exile) she was able to beat the most powerful Sith of Her time. There was Darth Traya, Nihilius, and the one with the gray cracked skin (can't remember his name). Each one was defeated by her in the Star Wars cannon. These Sith Lords were extremely powerful, with varied abilities. Nihilus was able to defeat the entire Jedi Council with his unique force abilities. However, He was defeated by Surik. This clearly shows the greater ability of the average Jedi Master.
It also comes down to who do you think would win in a boxing match for example? The boxer who rushes in filled with rage, swinging heavy and quick hooks, not caring about defense but simply trying to knock out the other boxer without thinking of anything else important...like defending himself.
Or the boxer who keeps a cool head, ducking and slipping punches while analyzing his opponents weaknesses. After he gets a feel for how his opponent fights he ducks the next swing, hits the other man with a power shot to the kidney, then knocks him out with a devastating uppercut.
This is a Sith vs Jedi. This is how such a match would go. The Sith wouldn't focus on anything except for his rage, all the while the Jedi is busy keeping his cool and waiting for his moment.
I think an average Sith Lord would be more among Darth Maul, The Sith Inquisitor/Inquisitors, etc.
Also, when you reference how many Sith Lords have killed it really is not fair. Jedi do not usually kill, that is not what their order stands for. They usually try to bring their enemies in or cripple them. How many average Sith Lords do you think would be slayed by Yoda, The Exile, Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, Galen Marek, etc? If any of those characters chose to kill then you would see something catastrophic. Yoda and Luke alone have Force Abilities through the roof...its been said that Luke Skywalker's force abilities were like that of a god once He became a Master. I know these are not average Jedi Masters, however you did the same thing with Sith Lords when you compared how many would kill Jedi Masters and so on.
So, what you must ask yourself is who would win in an average match up?
I will refer back to my early argument with Kit Fisto and Darth Maul. Its been shown that Kit Fisto would prevail, not only because of his duelist skills, but also because of his ability to keep his cool during a fight and outlast Darth Mauls earliest onslaught of rage.
Given that the Sith Inquisitor lost to a padawan and Jedi Knight (In the cartoon series) who do you really think would win? Shaak Ti or the Inquisitor?
Even Asaj Ventress could be considered an Average Sith Lord. She herself held her own against Obi-Wan and Anakin, however she was later defeated by a Jedi Knight for crying out loud.
Let's give another example of if a Jedi Master chose to kill:
Yoda is standing in the ruins of a long forgotten battleground. Above him scavenger birds circle around, waiting for a chance to being to pick at the burnt corpses of Clone Troopers.
All around him are destroyed tanks, battle droids, and droidekas. As he looks around he feels a great pang of sadness at all the lives lost, some were Jedi, some were Clones. All he counted as friends.
Then, a sense of righteous judgement comes over him. He can feel light flashes of anger, however he knows he must supress those emotions. Anger is not of the Jedi.
He takes a rasping breath, then..from the edges of the battlefield he sees four figures start to walk towards him.
He notices who the first two are. One is Savage Opress (Brother of Darth Maul), the other is Asajj Ventress, both of her curved lightsabers in each hand.
The final two are covered head to toe in black robes and body armor. Each carries a lightsaber in one hand.
Yoda slowly closes his eyes. He opens them and the four Sith are in front of Him.
"Master Yoda..." croaks Ventress "You know what comes next"
With that final word all four light their sabers.
Yoda feels a deep sense of peace, then begins to feel the light side of the Force rush through Him like a strong River Current. Opress can no longer take the suspense. He roars an animal roar and rushes at Yoda, swing heavy swings at the smaller alien.
Yoda easily front flips over Opress, slicing his blade along the way. Opress stops, and falls to his knees. He is headless.
Yoda continues forward with a blast of force energy that knocks Ventress and one of the Inquisitors a hundred feet away. He bounds forward without skipping a beat and drives his blade through the remaining Sith's chest. The Sith gurgles and falls to the ground. Yoda twists the lightsaber for good measure and jumps up onto the towering wreckage.
Ventress wildly spins around.
"Where are you?" she screeches. She is given no reply except for caws from the scavenger birds above. Some have already landed by Opress's body, picking at his flesh.
She hears something drop behind her. She spins around, only to see the final Inquisitor drop to the ground holding a stump where his arm used to be. She screams and begins to run. She hears the hum of a lightsaber cutting through flesh, and knows that her consort is dead.
Then she stops. "I am SITH!" she screams.
A haze of red rage overcomes her. She is now out in the open. Nothing but dunes of sand around her. Then, from in front of her she sees Yoda appear. He had bended waves of light in order to make himself invisible.
She raises a thin white hand and draws upon the dark side. Tendrils of Sith Lightning spring forward towards Yoda.
He raises one green hand, and absorbs all the energy back into myself. He discharges it back into the sky.
Then, with the Force Yoda crushes both of her lightsabers while they"1;e still in her hands. She screams as they scorch her soft white flesh. Then, she is raised into the air.
Yoda wears an expression of sadness as He uses the Force to rip off each of her arms.
She screams, her body refusing to pass out.
Yoda then, with the sheer power of the Force..rips her body in half.
So I have given an example of how easy it would be for Yoda to destroy four Sith in combat if He wanted to. A determined Jedi Master could beat multiple Sith Lords, which I have demonstrated time and time again.
In the end the Sith Lords downfall is their anger, which is also their greatest asset.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by emporer1 1 year ago
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Reasons for voting decision: I honestly feel that the sith have greater power. Many jedi even became sith just to get more power. The sith takes this one. And pro, calling me an idiot in the comments lost you a tied conduct point. Don't ever refer to a voter as an idiot ( it is not respectful or appropriate )
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