The christian god does not exist

definitions-

exist-a : to have real being whether material or spiritual.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...


I will be arguing that the Christian god does exist, Most of my argumentation will be based on logic.
If I can prove logically, practically, or ethically, or spiritually that god exists in at least one of these aspects then this debate should won in cons favor.

I can assure the readers that The meat of this debate will be in reffutaion.


This should be interesting because my approach is a bit differnet than normal. So let it rip.

seeing as this is a very short debate I will defeat my opponents points, and then weave in some of my points.

A= opponents points

B = my points/ refutations

..........................................................................................................................................................................
A-1.....too many gods,why god over these other gods?

B-1......Well it is for the very reason that god and the bible practically explains the existence of these other "gods" and explains that they are valueless and that we have only one god. The Christian god. The bible is the only record that clarifies the existence of other gods to my knowledge. Also there is evidence that the Christian god exists over other gods. The bible. Also the fact that the Christian go is the most logical god to believe in. No other "Gods" have as much evidence of existence as the Christian god does. He explains his existence logically and most other things logically. While the "tales" of other gods arnt as logical and are obviously just stories or epic stories of hero's. Example.... Thor.

psalms 96:5

Lev 19:4

Lev 26:1

B-1 The bible is most accurate and reliable and is a factor to gods existence.

The bible was the first thing to accurately describe gravity.......job 26:7.....at deut. 8:7,9 it describes cliffs saturated with iorn near beer-Sheba. At some point engineers digged around this area and discovered a land of 65% iorn. The bible tells man why we die, what happens when we die,gives us counsel on life,tells us how we are forgiven of our sins.....etc.....the bible itself being so accurate and practical is evidence of gods existence. NO other book that has lasted throughout such a long period of history, and has been written by so many authors in different lands at different time periods, and has been more accurate,and presents the same overall theme so clearly, and is more synonymous, and has more fluency than the bible. The bible described gravity, the earths core,and the shape of the earth before any human made the conclusion.

Also almost all of the bible prophesies has been fulfilled. I cannot list all of them but I will list a few.

prophecy event fulfilment

deut. ;17:14 Israel to request monarchy. 1 sam, 8:4,5,19,20
jer.25:11;29:10 Restoration of a remnant would be after
70 year of desolation. Dan.9:1,2 Zech. 7:5 2 chron. 36:21-23

Zech. 9:3,4 Island of Tyre to be destroyed. Accomplished by Alexander in 332 B.C.E

......http://en.wikipedia.org...

There are scores of bible prophecies that have been fulfilled. The bible itself is a witness of the accurate truth of gods existence.

A-2 God allowing evil proves his non-existence.

B-2 God has reason for allowing evil.
Yes, god is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient. So first God allows suffering, not causes it. Secondly God is justified in allowing evil. Evil was introduced via Adam and eve. we all inherited his imperfectness. At some point Satan challenged Gods sovereignty.( witch was around the time of Adam and eve, and at some other point.) If god would have simply destroyed Adam and eve then that wouldn't be proving his sovereignty to all under subjection to him including his angels. God took the chance to allow Satan to rule this world, and explain why he should have sovereignty over god. Obviously Satan ruling his world isn't working out. God is allowing evil to prove Satan by example is not fit to rule his world, and prove that god has the right to sovereignty over all creation. Eventually he will be put on trail and all this evidence of suffering will be on the table. Also god gives us ways to avoid suffering he doesn't want us to die or suffer......2 peter 3:9. He provides ransom for forgiveness and practical ways to avoid suffering to a degree. Lastly A huge part of this is the point of should god have forgiven Adam to prevent the suffering of mankind? No, would that really have prevented suffering or would it instead, have made God responsible for it? What happens when a father simply overlooks deliberate wrongdoing on the part of his children rather than take firm disciplinary measures? The children often get involved in first one from of wrongdoing and then another, and much of the responsibility lies with the father. So if Adam was forgiven for this either witch way sin was going to be introduced. But if god let it fly then he could have been considered a party to the wrongdoing.

A-3 Since god is invisible then he doesn't exist.
Gravity is invisible, but it is still proven to exist through its involvement in our everyday life. Similarly God is involved in our everyday life. HE created everything we perceive. he also allows us to wake up everyday.

my opponent stated ....." If god cared about humans he would want us to know about him." Absolutely right. Why do you think the bible exists? To let us find out about god. HE wants us to know him but will not force you to know him. there's also evangelizers out there that teach people about god everyday. That is evidence that god wants us to know about him.

Romans 1:20-" His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the worlds creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made."

Why doesn't god just show his face?
Maybe he doesn't have a face. Maybe we have seen him but cannot perceive him. Also if god just simply showed his face. Though people would believe him, it wouldn't stop people from sinning and betraying him. SO things would probroly be the same. S I used the example of gravity earlier. Do you really need to see gravity to know it exists? It is proven exist because we experience it. SAme principle applies to the existence of the Christian god. We experience evidence everyday to prove his existence. Actually there was a time when god communicated with humans alot but god got tired of humans disobeying him countless times. So Maybe the condition of those rebelling against him may be a factor.

My opponent stated....." It is unfair for god to judge humans without saying he exists."....he created us. Therefore he has every right to teach us right from wrong and to have sovereignty over us.

Moving on to one of my most important points.

B-3 the Christian god exists because of the definition of existence.

In this debate were debating does the Christian god exist. Technically, and analytically speaking in this paragraph yes he does exist. The definition of existence is....exist-a : to have real being whether material or spiritual. So if I can prove he exists in either witch way then this should prove he exists. All things we perceive exists. If we can perceive something. Than it is a thing and it exists. So at a basic level here. the fact that we are talking about the Christian god in this technical way of thinking means he exists atleast in our mind. Even if in the mind it is still existence.
Also perception is reality. Whatever the human brain perceives in life is its own reality. So with that being said Since we perceive god to be in some form of existence be it in our mind or our reality Then god exists.


So in my case i have proven these three points.

1.B-1 The bible is most accurate and reliable and is a factor to gods existance.
2.B-2 God has reason for allowing evil.
3.B-3 the christian god exists because of the definiton of existance.

So god exists on a practical, logical, and technical, and psycological level. Therefore God exists.

The Bible is accurate and reliable to show gods existance.


The bible is not accurate ad reliable to show gods existence. My opponent argues that because the bible made succesful predictions that it shows god exists. "Also almost all of the bible prophesies has been fulfilled. I cannot list all of them but I will list a few"

The bible also has many false claims and predictions. Here are a list of failed prophecies.
Isaiah 17:1 "An oracle concerning Damascus: See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins."

FAIL: Damascus is still inhabited today with well over a million people and there was never a time where it ceased to be a city. It is widely known as being the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world.

Ezekiel 29:10-11 "therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years."

FAIL: Never in its long history has Egypt been uninhabited for forty years.

Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." 23:36 "I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation." 24:34 "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

FAIL: Jesus states in Matthew that all the signs marking the end of the world would be fulfilled before his generation ended, before the people that were standing infront of him "taste death." Those people have been dead for over 2000 years and the world did not come to an end, neither have all those signs been fulfilled.

Here is the link to these failed prophecies and more http://truth-saves.com...

The bible also makes false historical claims. For example

Jericho
The Bible says Joshua destroyed the wall of Jericho around 1400 BCE but Archaeological evidence shows that an earthquake destroyed the wall in 2300 BCE. The city was also thoroughly destroyed by a fire and then abandoned in 1600 BCE. Jericho was not inhabited again until 700 BCE. There was no wall to tumble down or citizens to destroy at Jericho within centuries of when the Bible says Joshua was there.

http://truth-saves.com... the link and more

The bible also claims that the earth is about 6000 years old. When scientific evidence puts it around 4.5 billion years old.
http://www.missiontoamerica.com...
www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

There are countless other contradictions, falsehoods, ect. in the bible but these should be sufficient for now.This shows that the bible is not accurate in making predictions and explaining things on account of it is often wrong. However, even if the bible is sometimes right, this is no reason to think that it is right about accuratly describing god. I have a friend who predicted the winner of the NCAA march madness tournament for the last 3 years, this does mean he can describe supernatural phenomena accuratly. Nostradomas made many correct predictions, one should not take is word if he described a god/religion. There is little correlation between correct predictions and the ability to desribe god.

The bible is the best book of all the documented religions

Even if the bible was the "best" of all documented religions it does not prove that it is reliable. Saying that the bible is the best book to reliably desribe the universe is like saying that wrigleys is the best kind of gum to chew to survive getting ran over by a train. Even if it is the best it is not effective.

In addition, there are more conceivable religions then just documented ones.

God allows evil on account of adam and eve

My opponent claims that God is allowing satan to run the world and is preparing evidence for a trial

"God took the chance to allow Satan to rule this world, and explain why he should have sovereignty over god.Eventually he will be put on trail and all this evidence of suffering will be on the table"

This is not the action of an all knowing all powerful good being. Imagine if Barrack Obama allowed Osama bin Laden to rule the USA to prove it he would do a bad job. Also, an all powerful being would not take so long to get a trial. Why is a trial necesarry? Who does he has to prove to that satan is not fit to rule? If god is so concerned about having enough "evidence" why does he give slim evidence of his existence? Why is it more important to show that satan cannot rule than to prevent the suffering of the world.

Some guy steals an apple, so god decides to subject the entire world to mass amounts of suffering. This seems a bit harsh. My opponent states that allowing suffering is punishment for adam. "What happens when a father simply overlooks deliberate wrongdoing on the part of his children rather than take firm disciplinary measures? It is immoral to punish others for the deeds of one man. For an example in North Korea children born in prisons/gulags/workcamps are prisoners for life. This is immoral. An all good god would not punish others for the deeds of another.

Also my opponents states that god does not cause suffering. "So first God allows suffering, not causes it".According to noahs ark god deliberetly drowned everyone. http://christianity.about.com...

God is invisible he does not exist

Gravity can easily be noticed. God cannot. THe evidence for god is a book that includes falsohoods and contradictions. My opponent claims that god wants people to know abot him. "If god cared about humans he would want us to know about him." Absolutely right." Well, if god was all powerful he could do a better job of this. Not everyone knows about god. There are tribes that have not made contact with modern society yet, that do not know about this God. If god wanted these people to know about him, and was all powerful, then they would know about him. They do not know about him, so god must not be all powerfull and all knowing.

B-3 the Christian god exists because of the definition of existence.

First notice a contradiction made by my opponent. "Maybe we have seen him but cannot perceive him." "If we can perceive something. Than it is a thing and it exists."

My opponent thinks that god exists on account of he exists in our mind. "Than it is a thing and it exists. So at a basic level here. the fact that we are talking about the Christian god in this technical way of thinking means he exists atleast in our mind. Even if in the mind it is still existence."

If this were the case, then all other gods would also exist. The hindu god/voodoo gods/ect because they also are percieved. Since the Christiian God is the one and only god, then it cannot exist alongside other gods. So god cannot exist.

Also if this would be the case then, delusions of the mentally ill would exist because they exist in the mind. The lost city of Atlantis exists because it exists in ones mind. Imaginary friends would exist. Santa Clause and the Easterbunny would exist because they exist on ones mind. Ghosts. dragons, faireis and other nonsense would also exist.

My opponent states "Whatever the human brain perceives in life is its own reality.". Anorexic people perceive themselves as fat, when they actually skinny. Some morons percieve themselves as smart when they are actually stupid. Just because somebody percieves something does not make it true.

At best my opponent has succesfully proven that God is no more real than Santa Clause


I have shown that the bible is not sufficient evidence to believe in god
adam and eve do not explain the problem of evil
God is morally obligated to produce a convincing case he exists to everyone and he fails to do so

and that if somebody thinks of something in their mind it does not exist in reality

I will summarize the points of argument in this debate.

Prophecies
Isaiah 17:1

"Isaiah 17 was fulfilled in other events of the Bible, such as in 732 BC when Assyria defeated the Armenians and their capital Damascus (2 Kings 16:9). The problem is that while although the prophecy has been partially fulfilled in the past, this does not mean it does not have dual fulfillments, as is often the case with Bible prophecies. Usually parts of the prophecy are not fulfilled until a later, final fulfillment. In this case, the part about Damascus ceasing to be a city and become a heap of ruins is plainly yet future." http://www.escapeallthesethings.com...

We also need to keep in mind that there was no specific time set. So this may be coming in the future.

"Psalm 83:1-5, 12 (HCSB) 5 For they have conspired with one mind; they form an alliance against You 6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites, 7 Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek, Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre. 8 Even Assyria has joined them; they lend support to the sons of Lot.

Like Isaiah 17 it predicts a devastating defeat for Israel's attackers:

Psalm 83:13-17 (HCSB) 13 Make them like tumbleweed, my God, like straw before the wind. 14 As fire burns a forest, as a flame blazes through mountains, 15 so pursue them with Your tempest and terrify them with Your storm. ...17 Let them be put to shame and terrified forever; let them perish in disgrace.


SO maybe one day in the future Assyria(where capitol of Damascus is located) will attack Israel and they may be wiped of the map to fulfill this scripture. Just think about it Israel could be easily wiped off the map right now. It seems god is the only thing protecting them.



Ezekiel 29:10-11........Nebuchadnezzar conquered Egypt.......http://www.biblestudy.org...

......The Egyptian 40-year captivity could have been fulfilled at this time...........but as I have said this may not have been fulfilled yet.


Matthew 23:26...also 24:34...if you would read the event happening in the preceding paragraphs obviously that generation was Jerusalem. The prediction was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem, A.D. 70......http://en.wikipedia.org...

Also in my bible at Matthew 24:34...it cross references to mark 13:20.....witch reads "In fact, unless god had cut short the days, no flesh would be saved. But on account of the chosen ones whom he has chosen he has cut short the days."

So maybe god has given us more time. Then again I don't know what god has planned.


Jericho Did you ever think of the possibility of the Christian god causing the earthquake and using that as a means to destroy Jericho? Also it doesn't matter how it was destroyed. The fact is it was destroyed fulfilling prophecy.



There has been 100 plus prophecies fulfilled. This fact plus the fact of the bible accurately describing aspects of science witch was latter confirmed like gravity, and the shape of the earth is definitely a contributing factor to prove his existence. He is also the only god who describes creation in depth.

http://www.100prophecies.org...

This source says there are 2,500 prophecies in the bible while 2000 have already happened.

http://www.reasons.org...
nothing else in the world was as accurate as the bible is. So pros examples don't stand because they don't compare to the knowledge of the all knowing Christian god. We don't care about those other examples because their human and can fail While god is incapable of lieing thus all his prophecies are true.


The bible is the best book of all the documented religions
pros comparison makes absolutely no sense. The difference here is that Wrigley's has not been proven to be the best gum to survive getting run over. The bible has scientifically proven scientific findings.......Please look at this site that explains 7 scientific truths described by the bible witch tell these truths before man proving its reliability..........http://www.biblestudy.org...


God allows evil on account of Adam and eve
My opponents example doesn't compare to god because god represents sovereignty over all existence opposed to a country. God is taking so long with this trail because he wants us to repent so that he doesn't have to watch those who support the devil and reject his son to suffer. He doesn't want us to suffer. So he is giving the world time to repent to forgiveness......Romans 2:4........God has to prove the angels,humans and all other existence that Satan isn't fit to rule because obviously earth isn't a peaceful place. Imagine if Satan ruled heaven as well and all other existence. The universe may turn into a even more evil place than know. God has to use the example of the bad condition of the world of witch Satan rules to prove what life would be like if someone else was in charge. Thus proving his sovereignty In the most fair way.
Job 1:11,12
Ro 9:17, pr 27:11
joh 12:31
Ro 2:6, 7, rev 21:3-5

Also the persecution in north Korea is moral in the citizens eyes. They are slaves to there leader. If they do wrong then the people are willing to accept the punishment because that's just how they have been brainwashed. So it is moral in there eyes.Also its not that god is punishing us for Adams sins because obviously we couldn't have controlled the situation. But god makes clear that our fathers decisions can affect the sons lives. So because of Adams sins we are affected. God doesn't create the problems of the world Satan does. Adam allowed Satan to enter evil,pain, and suffering into the world. SO He became imperfect. We just happened to inherit it. SO don't be mad at god. Be mad at Adam for causing suffering and evil to enter into the world. Lastly I feel this is justified because id rather have god as a our god than Satan.

About Noah's ark. Angels were coming down and having sex with humans witch god forbid causing giants to be born. This was necessary. God wasn't about to allow the sinful angels back into heaven after they deliberately disobeyed him. If he did he would have enabled heaven to be corrupted. Also the humans were rejecting him. SO they had to be dealt with...........genesis 6:4.....numbers 13:33

God is invisible he does not exist

Jehovah's witnesses are everywhere. Enough said. Point proven, go look to how many places they preach to.
............................................................................................................
Here's what my opponents contentions was when we started.

They are now dropped arguments.

1. There are infinitely many different gods that could possibly exist.too many gods,why god over these other gods?

2. If god was all good, all knowing and all powerful he would not allow all the evil in the world.God allowing evil proves his non-existence.

3.If god cared about humans he would want us to know about him.Since god is invisible then he doesn't exist.


My points witch still stand and awnsers his case


1.B-1 The bible is most accurate and reliable and is a factor to gods existence.
2.B-2 God has reason for allowing evil.
3.B-3 the Christian god exists because of the definition of existence.

my last point I was trying to prove that god exists on a spiritual level. At the beginning of this debate I said I should win if I can prove he spiritually exists. Maybe I didn't explain it to well. The other gods may exist in the mind. So at some level they exist. The difference with the Christian god is that there is natural evidence he exists. While there isn't much evidence as accurate out there as the bible. So since the bible is accurate and supports the existence of the Christian god,Since god is justified in allowing evil, and since god is proven to exist not only in the mind( spiritual) but in reality, my case is proven. Pro claims dropped while mine still stand. So con should win.