The Instigator
frozono9
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
fabianhjr
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The collective is more important than an individual

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/20/2013 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,736 times Debate No: 32708
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

frozono9

Pro

The collective is more important than the individual because if everybody takes are about just one person, the resources for the rest will be limited. Let's say that you are in a community and you get shot. The amount of medicine is limited and there are many people who have minor injuries. If every resource is used for you exclusively, the other people that have minor injuries will not be cured, therefore even if you are saved the will be other people who's injury will get worse. That is why the group is more important than just one individual.
fabianhjr

Con

I will argue that the collective is as important as the individual and that individuals should have independence from the collective.

"...if everybody takes are about just one person, the resources for the rest will be limited." While it is true that a feudal system only takes care of the nobles, it is important to note the difference in ownership, fairness and freedom of today from the beginnings of the industrial revolution. The other extreme of this argument would be total communism, which would actually disincentivize labour. "Why should I put more effort, if whatever work I do I always get the same?"

Another example, "Let's say that you are in a community and you get shot...", you go to a hospital and in the hospital there are 2 persons that just lost a different leg, 2 that are missing opposite arms, and several that have overcome diseases but are now in need of an organ transplant. There is no way for them to get everything they need. Voila! You just walked in and they decide to saw you down to save everyone else.

There is also a need for diversification, the group should promote uniqueness between its individuals, even at the risk of criticism or lack of unity. This include "Freedom of Assembly, Association, Choice, Education, Information, Movement, Press, Religion, Public speech, and Thought", which allows individuals to stir the collective and provide protections for doing so. For example, when Judaism split and Christianity was born.
Debate Round No. 1
frozono9

Pro

In a community there will be people who cannot keep up as well as others. For example in a classroom. In an intermediate math class, for example, there are 20 students. 8 are top students who never need help. 11 are intermediate students that sometimes need help. Then there is 1 student that has no idea what he is doing and needs help all the time. So then the teacher has to spend all the time with the 1 student whilst the other 11 students also need help. The obvious thing to do is to put that 1 student who is not qualified enough to be in the intermediate class into the beginners group. Not only for the good of the community but also for his own good. Sometimes, it is good for the community to get rid of the person that obstructs the vision of the future, but at the same time it is also god for the person to have gone out.
fabianhjr

Con

Sometimes, it is good for the community to get rid of the person that obstructs the vision of the future"

I would argue that relocating the low performing member to rehab/training, would be great; I am going to assume you meant that and not just "get rid of the person". However, life is not about reducing fractions in which just one answer is correct. Take for instance an art class. Everyone should be given a chance, specially if they are trying something radically different. Tough, to be fair real life math work really does involve creativity and perseverance. Minorities are therefore as important as the collective, and protecting them is primordial.

We are at a moment in history in which every job that can be automated is being automated; the working class will have to adapt and move into a creative job, and a lot of political development most occur as to protect the populous.

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out"
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out"
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out"
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out"
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me"
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

"The terrible tyranny of the majority."

"Strength lies in differences, not in similarities"

"If we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity."
Debate Round No. 2
frozono9

Pro

Whilst I agree that differences make up what we call an interracial community, similarities is the cement that sustains the differences together.

"We are at a moment in history in which every job that can be automated is being automated; the working class will have to adapt and move into a creative job, and a lot of political development most occur as to protect the populous."

Firstly, it is true that every job is slowly being automatized, but your argument crumbles by itself. If all the jobs are being automatized, at some point there will even be machines that create machines to make our lives easy. Taking care of the community, and everybody adding their little grain of sand to the pile, will make the community prosper.

"However, life is not about reducing fractions in which just one answer is correct."

Mixing 2 puzzles, for example, will complicate the job of making both of them. Even if you put 99,999 pieces correctly, it will be hard to find the exact piece that will fit perfectly, so it is just easy to add any piece that has the same size and shape as the one needed, but when you take a look overall, you will notice that the drawing is not the correct one for that puzzle. The puzzle is obviously the community, and the pieces are people.
fabianhjr

Con

"Whilst I agree that differences make up what we call an interracial community, similarities is the cement that sustains the differences together."

Yes, however monotony is what also drives them apart.

"Firstly, it is true that every job is slowly being automatized, but your argument crumbles by itself. If all the jobs are being automatized, at some point there will even be machines that create machines to make our lives easy. Taking care of the community, and everybody adding their little grain of sand to the pile, will make the community prosper."

Indeed, and building those machines and policies around it to protect everyone instead of a few, even if that is not better on average, is more desirable and just than just a laissez-faire in which a few industrialists get to the top.

"Mixing 2 puzzles, for example, will complicate the job of making both of them. Even if you put 99,999 pieces correctly, it will be hard to find the exact piece that will fit perfectly, so it is just easy to add any piece that has the same size and shape as the one needed, but when you take a look overall, you will notice that the drawing is not the correct one for that puzzle. The puzzle is obviously the community, and the pieces are people."

I don't believe there are wrong people, or wrong perspectives, or wrong communities. Sure, there ca be dysfunctional entities, however the input of every single entity in a rational system is valuable.

I conclude that individuals and collectives are equally important.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by dylancatlow 4 years ago
dylancatlow
More important to whom?
No votes have been placed for this debate.