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logicvsfaith
Con (against)
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The Contender
FollowerofChrist1955
Pro (for)
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The debate of God's notion of free will

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/12/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 471 times Debate No: 88123
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
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logicvsfaith

Con

Hello this is my first debate so i apologize ahead of time for grammar mistakes and lose points

Today I will be arguing God's notion of free will and I will be taking the stance that We have free will and because of that god doomed a majority of his creation to hell and/or We do not have free will and life is a predestine before you are born in which case life would then have no meaning

Now to make Gods stance known we have to start with the definition of free will

Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition," and specifically that these "free will" choices are not ultimately predestined by God.

According to the Bible, the choices of man are not only ultimately determined by God, but morally determined by one's nature. Man is indeed a free moral agent and freely makes choices

Now the argument I am here to present is that if man indeed does have 100% free will in every aspect of there life then man should not be condemned to hell for his actions (obviously special cases apply Hitler,Stalin, Mussolini and man who is evil in life)

i have 2 points to make and will welcome any counter argument and hope to have a lovely debate

1. My first point in simple. In order to follow god you must sacrifice free will which in itself is counter intuitive to gods plan

For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. Isaiah 64:6

Now this quote from the bible was taught to me very early (southern baptist upbringing) the point of this quote was that all of your good deeds are but rags in the eyes of lord and that only through Jesus Christ could one be saved from damnation and their sins be absolved this is where the "Free Will" effect triggers in my mind

Now from a purely logical standpoint 2000 or plus years ago if Jesus walked the earth and preformed miracles and did all the beautiful and wonderful things that bible said he did and through his teachings saved many souls from hell the people around him who saw his power would have no choice but to believe what this man spoke and would find following a worshiping him dare i say easy

Fast forwarding to present day I will speak for myself because i find it easiest to convey my message I have never seen,taste,touched,smelt or heard god speak to me the only evidence of his existence is an ancient book which is a collection of stories put together by the church long before my ancestors walked the earth and yet in order to enter the kingdom of heaven i would have to throw away all of my human instinct , my knowledge my logic and also my desire in order to properly serve god
which i believe is the exact problem free will is the ability to make a choice without outside influence

The act of giving up everything a person could stand for how they live there lives what they eat who they sleep with what cloths they wear what thoughts can cross their mind .. frankly being a good follower of God is impossible with free will ( IN TODAY'S MODERN TIMES) with the expansion of social media and this website we have the ability to share knowledge on such a major scale that believing in an ancient book that has no definite proof of legitimacy or accuracy is so counter intuitive to everything that most people are taught and feel that is why i believe major religions are losing support but not to ramble we live in a society where any information we want is a google search away and when we see life devolve and die on a grander scale than just earth (exp: the sun , stars, planets) its makes the notion of servitude to god seem... outdated

to summarize my first point i will leave this statement "in order to serve god in today society you could not have free will because your free will you not cause you to defy all of your basic human natures in order to possible attain peace in the next life you can not logically defend giving up every fiber of your being for a CHANCE of salvation "

2. My second my point is the counter argument there is no free will and all decision we make in our lives are just part of gods plan and that our fate in the afterlife is already predetermined which goes against everything the bible teaches but would explain why so many people find accepting god hard because in death a human wants there to be some satisfaction some HOPE for the future in the next life and the notion of predestination would not support that desire

And since this point is pretty self explanatory if all of our actions are predetermined then me typing this message was planned eons ago and is just part of the cycle and in that case life would have no meaning

Again this is my first debate and hope you will be tolerant of lose points and grammar i look forward to reading your responses
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

No need to apologize, can"t become experienced until you jump in! Right?
In fairness to debate rules, both and all parties MUST follow rational guidelines ". To achieve optimum clarity in patterns of discussion! Example, can"t argue Gods notion and then come back with There IS no God as a rebuttal, cause "". if He doesn"t exist? He can"t logically ".. HAVE a notion? Right? So all who read these arguments MUST at the time of argument, and for those God specific arguments naturally concede God, is Real and Does exist ". At least during those God specific arguments. So EQUAL fairness, or notify the moderator cause I"m out because this is just a God bashing and not a real debate! Check? " Check! OK?
In order for logical discussion (cause most here DO NOT know God) we must complete definitions so people reading can rationally consider the beings we"re discussing. Remember people go to the definitions to get UNBIASED view of whom you"re going to talk about?

God.
The creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being. Oxford Dictionaries.
For the purposes of THIS debate He DOES exist ". So he can have opinions ".yes?

Man.
a human being of either sex; a person: Oxford dictionaries

Evil.
morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked, harmful; injurious, characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character, marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc, that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct, the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin, the wicked or immoral part of someone or something, harm; mischief; misfortune, anything causing injury or harm, a harmful aspect, effect, or consequence. Dictionary.com

Opponent states: I will be taking the stance that We have free will and because of that god doomed a majority of his creation to hell. Also stated Free will defined (specifically that these "free will" choices are not ultimately predestined by God.)

My Response: Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
God condemned? Or Man Condemned? Does this scripture in any way imply predestined disobedience of Adam?

Kinda like texting and driving Huh? HOW MANY TIMES are you told don"t do it ". But WHEN you DO IT", You SHOULDN'T have to DIE? You want the choice ". Just don"t want to die for it. I understand really I do, but that doesn"t MAKE the death unjust, nor predestined does it! Just a consequence of action ". Kinda Like Adam huh?

Please place source of scripture reading? (According to the Bible, the choices of man are not only ultimately determined by God, but morally determined by one's nature.) This way I know your reading it correctly before I respond :)

(Opponents) My first point in simple. In order to follow god you must sacrifice free will which in itself is counter intuitive to gods plan
As People can"t understand Gods plan lets put in terms Man CAN understand " sense only the Godly would understand (No offense intended.)

Okay you work, right? You decide to NOT do what you were hired for ".. but to fire you, would violate your right to FREE CHOICE? I disagree you have the choice, you can DO WHAT I BROUGHT YOU FOR " Or DIE of starvation ". Let me see , so That"s UNFAIR, or somehow VIOLATES your free choice? Sooo do you only have to do your job some of the time or ALL of the time? Will you not still be held accountable for not doing your job at ANY time?

opponent placed this scripture:
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. Isaiah 64:6

My Response: That scripture means man will only DO their work SOME of the time! Therefore not dependable, work focused, lazy. There Sinning will be lifelong. Sinning Continuously IS how the scripture puts this:

The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.~Genesis 6:5

This also answers the below statement:
all of your good deeds are but rags in the eyes of lord and that only through Jesus Christ could one be saved from damnation and their sins be absolved this is where the "Free Will" effect triggers in my mind

(opponent) if Jesus walked the earth and preformed miracles and did all the beautiful and wonderful things that bible said he did and through his teachings saved many souls from hell the people around him who saw his power would have no choice but to believe what this man spoke and would find following a worshiping him dare i say easy

False: They killed Him". Didn"t they?

(opponent) I have never seen,taste,touched,smelt or heard god speak to me the only evidence of his existence is an ancient book which is a collection of stories put together by the church long before my ancestors walked the earth and yet in order to enter the kingdom of heaven i would have to throw away all of my human instinct , my knowledge my logic and also my desire in order to properly serve god

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"~Romans 10:14-15

7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. ~Matthew 7-8

9 "Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! ~Matthew 9-11

opponent states: The act of giving up everything a person could stand for how they live there lives what they eat who they sleep with what cloths they wear what thoughts can cross their mind.

My Response: What you describe above IS false in the extreme .... so your idea of FREE WILL, is the right to do whatever you want, whenever you want to, for as long as you want to ..... BUT you DON'T want anything BAD to happen to you BECAUSE of YOUR ACTIONS ...... is that about Right? Sound familiar ..... I want to text and drive, but I don't want to DIE for it!
So what your actually saying outright IS you believe people should have the RIGHT to sin WITHOUT consequence or ill effect!

I mean that could be argued from a sheer unfairness position .... those who live uprightly, within the confines of decency, morality, justice, love and fair play ...... Oh wait a minute, there's no consequences is there? So what are the chances that humankind will BE motivated to live uprightly? BINGO it's fiction or Most realist call it!
a pipe dream! ..... isn't it?

pipe dream.
1.an unattainable or fanciful hope or scheme.
synonyms: fantasy " false hope " illusion " delusion " daydream "
chimera " castle in the air " castle in Spain " pie in the sky

If that's the case why NOT steal, lie, cheat, fornicate, be an adulterer, take without giving, sleep with any sex, kids or animals, why not rape, pillage, plunder. that's sin NOT free will!

The simple fact is SIN exist ... it destroys lives, people, territories, lands, governments! That's WHY there are police, prisons, Jails .... Because people ARE evil by nature because of the Fall of Adam ... Death, there are 2, physical death brought on by Adam, and spiritual death, Brought on by Man's SIN! .... God? HE GIVES MAN A WAY of escape, COURSE you CAN FREELY refuse it ! can't you?
Debate Round No. 1
logicvsfaith

Con

Ok many points to make in this argument so to start from the beginning and work my way down

1.I"m out because this is just a God bashing and not a real debate! Check? " Check! OK?
no this is not a god bashing i was raised like i said in a very southern baptist household and yes i personally view myself as agnostic i have no hatred or ill feelings towards a god i dont believe exist if my tone come across that way i will try to refrain from that tone

2. "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
God condemned? Or Man Condemned? Does this scripture in any way imply predestined disobedience of Adam?

Eve partook of the fruit first and then mislead Adam eve presented Adam with a choice and Adam had the free will to choice what at the time he thought was right even though it was in direct disobedience to god and his punishment was death and banishment from the garden pretty common story known by most but there are a few finer points in this story i would like to touch on

1st What happen to Adam and eve after they partook of the fruit a religious mans response would be that sin entered the world and they would be right but i pose the question "what did Satan give man when he convinced eve to eat the apple"

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Genesis 3:7 KJV so to answer my question from "MY" interpretation Satan gave man critical thinking which was the first sin and so i pose a second question " Was Satan giving man critical thinking truly a bad thing"

and finally i pose a 3rd question " what if Adam and eve never partook of the fruit and sin never entered the world" my answer is its impossible for sin not to enter the world god gave man 1 rule do not eat the fruit from that tree but that rule sealed mans fate how many times have you not thought about doing something but then when somebody tells you that you cant it motivates you to want to do it same rules apply here ( and on a side not I do not believe Satan lied he said partake of the fruit and you will be like god i think the ability to think critically is what separated us from god and with the abiltity to think criticly we would eventually come to not believe in him unless he made his prescience known)

Now you made a very nice texting and driving analogy that him home my sister died from it but that makes this a little easier to explain i know what could happen if i text and drive i have seen what it can do and the pain and suffering it can cause I have NOT seen the consequences of the disobedience of god i have not felt the pain of absence from god for i have never known him i do not have all the information available about my actions and the ramifications of them before i make them besides an ancient text with no proff of validity So to be judged based on ignorance is... unethical (maybe not the best word but a better word doesn't come to mind)

(opponent) if Jesus walked the earth and preformed miracles and did all the beautiful and wonderful things that bible said he did and through his teachings saved many souls from hell the people around him who saw his power would have no choice but to believe what this man spoke and would find following a worshiping him dare i say easy

False: They killed Him". Didn"t they?

1. They- meaning the Jewish people of his time yes they did kill him because they feared him

Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people, and said to them, "You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. Luke 23 13-14 KJV

So to restate my point if those who witnessed Jesus miracles and didn't fear him were to worship him they would not find it much of a challenge

Next you quote two very famous quotes from Romans and Matthew which alone are very beautiful and valid points but like I said i have never seen,taste,touch,smelt or heard god even with a baptist upbring i called for him with no answer and to touch on Romans "the good news" is very vague and one could argue that extends to a variety of subjects and/or religions

now your next response will be it may not be gods time for you and i will respond with "well the bible says if i call the door will be opened" and i will quote you "As People can"t understand Gods plan lets put in terms Man CAN understand " sense only the Godly would understand" that line of thinking is what drives people such as myself away I reached out whole heartily and wanted to be accepted by god and yet i felt none of my love returned what would incline me to knock on a door that was not opened the first time

Next you attack my notion of free will as being doing what you want when you want that is not the point i am trying to convay I believe for expample people are born gay i grew up with kids my age that i knew from an early age were diffent and later in life they came out as gay and lived happy lives should they be condemed for being who they were born to be

another example i grew up eating chicken my whole life but in order to follow god
Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat. Leviticus 11:3

now these examples are different in there severity but should a person be damned for being the person they were born to be or eating what they have been raised to eat i think judging somebody based on that is again ... unethical

So what your actually saying outright IS you believe people should have the RIGHT to sin WITHOUT consequence or ill effect!

- no that is so far from my point my point is simply if god is real and we accept for the sake of argument that the bible is 100 percent factual then it would require me to go against everything i have ever been taught in order to follow god and in that case no mamall would go against their entire nature in the CHANCE of a life after death

Next you say
If that's the case why NOT steal, lie, cheat, fornicate, be an adulterer, take without giving, sleep with any sex, kids or animals, why not rape, pillage, plunder. that's sin NOT free will!

But there was free will to make those choices when i was born nobody had to tell me not to kill my mother i loved her and wouldn't hurt her the fact that you give all of our moral compass to god and religion is ignorant a person can have a sound moral compass without religion

and to touch on your final point
God? HE GIVES MAN A WAY of escape, COURSE you CAN FREELY refuse it ! can't you?

if you are a 7 foot man and i give you a 2 inch door to go through and you cant bring yourself to do it because you didn't believe you could was it really a fair challenge and was it truly a way of escape i think not if god wanted people to truly love him and follow him he would make believing in his mere existence easier than it currently is

I EAGERLY await your response
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

Wow ". Logicvsfaith ". I"m completely at a loss for words. Your absolutely NOT prepared for this debate. Upon review of ALL your responses, not a single question is based on a fact as defined IN scripture. Allow me to explain.

Violation of Rules:
#1 1.Eve partook of the fruit first and then mislead Adam
FALSE: Eve did NOT mislead Adam. Adam KNEW not to eat from Tree!
#2 2.eve presented Adam with a choice and Adam had the free will to choice what at the time he thought was right.
FALSE: Adam KNEW consequence of eating from tree ". You cannot possibly know what HE thought!
#3 3.even though it was in direct disobedience to god and his punishment was death and banishment
FALSE: Scripture clearly states Adam was told not to eat of that tree or HE WOULD DIE! " that is a CONSEQUENCE, not a punishment. God did not PUNISH Adam, Adam committed suicide! By eating something he KNEW WOULD KILL HIM, that"s not punishment that"s suicide. I tell YOU NOT to drink Antifreeze or it will kill you, and you decide to drink it anyway because YOU think it's the right thing to do at the time or NOT ... is NOT MY FAULT? Completely illogical conclusion based absurd rationalization!

#4 banishment
FALSE: Departure from the Garden of EDEN was a consequence of Adams action. He eat from the tree which would result in death, willfully and with full knowledge of the consequence! See below:

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Adam eats knowingly from the tree that would BRING DEATH. God HAD NO CHOICE but to REMOVE him from the garden that HAD THE TREE OF LIFE ". Because Adam, would eat of it and circumvent the consequence of the choice he made! God would be neither righteous nor just to allow that!

Therefore you cannot use false statements to support a conclusion! None of your questions based on Adam and eve are based IN FACT. Remember the rules, we"re dealing in REALITIES, not fiction! You must ask REALISTIC questions, Not make believe questions!

#5 They- meaning the Jewish people of his time yes they did kill him because they feared him,

FALSE: Wrong again. They killed him because he CLAIMED to be the Son of God" a blasphemy unforgivable to Jews of that time. To THIS DAY the vast majority of Jews STILL wait for Messiah! Outside the twelve and few here and there Jews, none believed he WAS messiah.

Now your making statements that have no business in this debate " do not tell me what I"m going to say " you don"t know what I"m going to say. What you NEED to understand is that you ARE without God, the why is absolutely irrelevant at this time. What IS relevant is it IS precisely because of this that your quoting scriptures with complete misrepresentation.

You are NOT GIVEN authority BY God to KNOW scriptures which is why your using them all wrong! You want PROOF God IS REAL? You and ANY non-believer can study the bible, 24/7 for as long as you want and none of you ". Not ONE of you will understand it, know how I know? God SAYS you can"t, and to this very day, not a SINGLE non-believer HAS EVER understood the Bible, they walk away condemned, never having understood the Bible! THAT"S WHY they ARE unbelievers. See exactly WHY you keep misquoting and failing to understand scriptures your using in this debate!

Here;
Matthew 13: 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "39;" You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people"s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."

Deuteronomy 29:4
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Isaiah 42:19
Who is blind but my servant, and deaf like the messenger I send? Who is blind like the one in covenant with me, blind like the servant of the LORD?

Isaiah 42:20
You have seen many things, but you pay no attention; your ears are open, but you do not listen."

Jeremiah 5:21
Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear:

Ezekiel 12:2
"Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.

Ezekiel 20:49
Then I said, "Sovereign LORD, they are saying of me, 'Isn't he just telling parables?'"
John 9:39
Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

Your notion of free will is completely and accurately described " You want to do whatever you want, think whatever you want, for as long as you want but don"t want to be condemned for it! How is that ANY different from what you said? Don"t think so? Just WATCH: using your OWN words, not mine;

Next you attack my notion of free will as being doing what you want when you want that is not the point i am trying to convay I believe (what you think) for expample people are born (what you/they want to think) gay i grew up with kids my age that i knew (what you think) from an early age were diffent (what you thought) and later in life they came out as gay(what they want) and lived happy lives (what you think) should they be condemned (but don"t want to be condemned) for being who they were born (what you think and what they want) to be

Exactly HOW IS YOUR STATEMENT different than what I said?

another example i grew up eating chicken my whole life but in order to follow god
False: Old Testament covenant no longer enforce. we are in New covenant! Eat anything you want.

Remember God?
The creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being. Oxford Dictionaries.
For the purposes of THIS debate He DOES exist ". So he can have opinions ".yes?

Not once, not a SINGLE TIME did you even imply Gods Rights? only human rights? NOW you KNOW WHY you have never met Him ..... like it or NOT, it was not because it wasn't your time .... it was because you did not WANT to know him. To say you did, is as false as every statement you made in your rebuttal. Check it out .... not a single TIME did YOU give God the slightest hint of benefit of the doubt. Now just as then, you only were looking for what YOU want. God doesn't work that way to see how He fits, something for you to try on. He IS God, and He bows to no one,
Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

I have provided you with the truth and nothing but the truth for ALL your questions in my first response, but instead of reading and reflecting on the truth I gave you, you immediately embarked on a series of unrealistic thoughts based on falsehoods and imaginings. I have offered YOU an opening to KNOW God, and you have cast it aside without a thought. Unless and until you seek God FOR who He IS, WHY WOULD He acknowledge you?

I sought God because I realized I was a sinner, I NEEDED Him, He never needed me. I WANTED Him... and ONLY THEN He responded immediately and with power. Why? Cause He WANTED ME too! I now eat, sleep and walk for Him and Him alone, offering a glimpse of Him. Not my place to prove Him to you, it is YOUR place to prove Him for yourself, BECAUSE you need Him, not the other way around. You see?
Debate Round No. 2
logicvsfaith

Con

logicvsfaith forfeited this round.
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

Big things coming down the pike ..... when they come .... pick up a king James Bible 1611 edition, that's the one I use. They haven't butchered it ! Oh and don't take the mark of the Beast. You'll no it because it will be FORCED on everyone. You won't be able to buy, sell, work or anything without it AND it WILL NOT BE OPTIONAL. If you take it ..... you will have NO CHANCE of salvation!

You'll KNOW the truth of my statement WHEN it happens, don't listen to those saying this is the mark or that is the mark. THE MARK will be the one you CANNOT refuse!!!! That should be plain enough!

God Bless!
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 9 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
God has been proven to be Real and Evolution a Lie in Debate" The Proof that God exists IS Mans unique existence."
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Big things coming down the pike ..... when they come .... pick up a king James Bible 1611 edition, that's the one I use. They haven't butchered it ! Oh and don't take the mark of the Beast. You'll no it because it will be FORCED on everyone. You won't be able to buy, sell, work or anything without it AND it WILL NOT BE OPTIONAL. If you take it ..... you will have NO CHANCE of salvation!

You'll KNOW the truth of my statement WHEN it happens, don't listen to those saying this is the mark or that is the mark. THE MARK will be the one you CANNOT refuse!!!! That should be plain enough!
Posted by WhineyMagiciann5 11 months ago
WhineyMagiciann5
not necessarily good or bad. just reminded me of a friend who always writes essays in assignments. one time in our advanced classes. we just had to give short answers for the quizbowl papers ( quizbowl is a tournament between school in the district). in one question that could be answered in a short sentence, he manages to write a whole paragraph. it's quite comical if you could see it for yourself.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Welllll, don't know if that's meant good or bad? No matter though ..... The saving of even a SINGLE soul, will make all my efforts worth while! When you know the truth of all things, by a real personal relationship, and through diligence and corrections that God applies to those adopted into the family of God. Well, the scripture says, the attempts to save others, becomes natural. That in the attempts we more often than not are balked at, attempted to be made sport of or lead away from truth by mans devices, man's attempts at logic and reasoning ..... (which are ALWAYS ineffective), not because Believers of Christ themselves are infallible, but Christ IS without error and INFALLIBLE.

Try as they might, when you look at the arguments given by atheists and other false religions, on breakdown they are shown for what they real are .... fiction, falsehoods, imaginings, hypothesis and conjectures, not a true statement in the bunch.

Not because they're ignorant, but because they DO NOT research FOR THEMSELVES. They just parrot what someone else s opinion is, and agree with it .... not from equal study mind you, it just SOUNDS right TO THEM!

A Follower of Christ ..... a mature one , because not all believers are mature, cause they're still growing. But a mature follower of Christ is under command to prayerfully study the word of God, every day, all the time, in doing this God SHOWS each believer, the meanings behind each passage.

Want proof God exists ....... read sections of scripture, the ones you don't understand .... which will be MOST ..... then hand it to a Believer and ask them if they know what it means ..... almost ALL of them will be able to tell you quickly what it means ..... the more you ask about the same portions the more you will be able to pick out the real meaning, because the mature Christians, will repeat what other mature Christians are telling you!
By the way .... God says you can't understand scripture .... no atheist can that's one pr
Posted by WhineyMagiciann5 11 months ago
WhineyMagiciann5
I literally check this one minute. not to long your in essay mode. you remind me a lot of one of my classmates.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Did you catch that ? The DNA strand is coded to allow for its creations to not ONLY develop, but to SURVIVE, adapt and overcome to evolve and reproduce a stronger more viable organism. This is WHAT the DNA strand DOES, and it is so complex, that WITH the assistance of supercomputers man has YET to fully understand. BUT ...... not so fast. Did you catch what happened? No? let me explain .... RATHER than glorify God for His creation ....... they worshiped the created ....... exchanging the TRUTH FOR A LIE ! ....... Remember those words?
Man refuses to glorify God ..... and instead called His work ..... EVOLUTION!

Remember what God said in Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie (They call God evolution) and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator.

The Atom is also to advanced for mankind even as of this writing. Science admits, it's mathematical, advanced beyond understanding by man. they know it can exist by itself. They know that by itself it is intangible .... unable to BE touched by human hand, BUT when grouped together it makes up the totality of the known world AND its materials.

get that? you cannot touch it UNLESS it connects itself together. So IF it can exist by itself WHY would it NEED to connect together? Ever thought of that? Might it BE to allow mankind to have SOMETHING to survive ON? to far fetched? Well then consider from a very real standpoint what would happen to mankind IF all those Atoms just released from each other? That's right everything you touch, eat, stand on fly in, drive in, write with, type on ....... would instantly CEASE TO EXIST. Vanish in a blink of an eye .... BUT God? No, He's far to irrational to ACTUALLY believe IN? Riiiiiight!
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
God says that IF you want to find Him; you need only clear your mind, open your eyes and LOOK around you! He says His existence CAN BE PROVEN in His creation! Its found here:

Romans 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God"s invisible qualities"his eternal power and divine nature"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Earth, Sky, Life, biologic living things from the microscopic to the largest of majestic creatures.

So how does that prove that God exists?

Because it EXISTS, not ONLY does it exists ..... it consists AND exists off of 2, count them 2 elements, BOTH of which NO SCIENTIST to this very day with the assistance of supercomputers, and the GREATEST HUMAN MINDS are YET to full understand! The DNA and The Atom. yes, yes go search for yourself... don't listen to other people, you have a mind of your own ... you can read same as them. BUT don't read what they THINK .... ONLY WHAT THEY CAN PROVE! IF you use that criteria ONLY, you will BE lead to the ONLY TRUTH that actually MAKES sense!

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools.

Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
you see PowerPikachu21 ..... they HAD no answer to where it came from... so they took what could not be understood by their little minds and gave credit of Gods creation to a lie .... EVOLUTION.
don't believe it huh?

What does DNA do? http://www.genome.gov......
DNA contains the instructions needed for an organism to develop, survive and reproduce.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Here is the mystery of God, explained.
People who do not believe in God, live in sin ... consequently they are cut off from God and God cannot associate with anyone who is an ACTIVE sinner.
Those who FIND Him are those who, begin to realize that there IS MORE to the world we live in. We begin to sense a presence round about us, and get a unction or sensation that we are living wrong. This is the first step. God knowing our hearts better than us moves closer to US, and His natural divinity, begins to draw us towards Him .....
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
This unction is the fulfillment of this prophecy.

You will not BE drawn until you search for Him in truth and deed. Until you come to the very real conclusion that you need Him, and not the other way around. Needing Him is the first step. Because it is not His nature to turn away those who need Him.

In this is fulfilled the prophecy
John 6:33
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Like Christ in those days, people sought because of what they could get from Him, not cause they wanted Him or needed Him. It is no different today. They seek for greed sake, for self serving purposes ...they don't want to serve Him, they want to be served by Him. Big difference. Until man realizes his NEED of God mankind travels the road to destruction, always having the choice of turning away from their sinful ways, turning toward God and God shall heal them, love them, lead them. He shall be their God and they shall be His people.Jeremiah 24:7
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.
Jeremiah 32:39and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 11 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
WhineyMagiciann5 , nice to hear from you. I believe Pros problems are based mostly on misunderstanding. He presupposes, Adams death was a punishment rather than a consequence of action. He also didn't look to see WHY he was banished, believing it too was a punishment rather than a consequence of action.

both actions were interconnected because the tree of life gave Adam eternal Life. As soon as he ate from the tree that would bring death, God had no choice BUT to remove Him from where the tree of Life existed, so that the death Adam brought upon himself could occur naturally.

That His thoughts are those oh human origin ewas obvious when he disputed the obvious, about wanting to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, without punishment. Choosing to somehow blame God for people dying and going to Hell for their OWN choices. This was and IS always incorrect. The people that go to hell have had two choices before them .... let Gods Sons death on the cross pay theor sin debt past, present and future, seeking after him for strength and ability to live uprightly or pay for the sn they commit themselves at the Great White Throne Judgement. Man has ALWAYS had the right of Choice.
Posted by WhineyMagiciann5 11 months ago
WhineyMagiciann5
"Undstable"
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