The Instigator
Nationalsocialist1488
Pro (for)
The Contender
Capitalistslave
Con (against)

The direct extermination of 6 million Jews was a myth.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/4/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 1,259 times Debate No: 97627
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (23)
Votes (0)

 

Nationalsocialist1488

Pro

I am willing to debate this topic. Please provide facts to support your position.
Capitalistslave

Con

I guess I'll just do this debate anyways, even though I accidentally accepted it.

Alright, the first and perhaps strongest evidence I have of the holocaust, is the Hoess affidavit. Rudolf Hoess was Adolf Hitler's second in command for the third Reich. During the Nuremberg Trials, he offered this affidavit which reads "I declare herewith under oath that in the years 1941 to 1943 during my tenure in office as commandant of Auschwitz Concentration Camp 2 million Jews were put to death by gassing and a 1/2 million by other means. Rudolf Hoess. May 14, 1946." [1]

A second evidence is a map entitled "Jewish Executions carried out by Einsatzgruppen A" upon which lists the number of Jews in each Baltic state that was killed [2]

A third evidence of the holocaust becomes clear when we look at the Jewish population of Europe prior to the Nazis coming to power. In 1933, there were 9.5 million Jews in Europe. [3] In 1950 there were about 3.5 million Jews in Europe. [3] 6 million Jews don't just suddenly become lost in a 17 year time frame.

In addition, in an analysis done of the Auschwitz gas chambers, there was significant amounts of cyanide residue [4]. The amount found was consistent with the amount needed to sufficiently kill humans [5]

Wilhelm Hoettl, an SS officer, also testified during the Nuremberg trials that an estimated 6 million Jews were killed by August, 1944- "4,000,000 (four million) in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 (two million) through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc."[6]

I believe there is no reason to question the testimonies of two Nazi officials, as well as the fact that 6 million Jews went missing after world war 2, and that there is a map detailing the Jews killed in the Baltic states.

It is now up to my opponent to refute this evidence, if they can.

Sources:
[1] https://www.ushmm.org...
[2] https://www.ushmm.org...
[3] https://www.ushmm.org...
[4] http://www.nizkor.org...
[5] http://www.nizkor.org...
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Nationalsocialist1488

Pro

First of all, most information regarding the Nuremberg Trial is not reliable for 2 main reasons:

A) Many Nazi commanders were threatened by force to speak about supposed killings against Jews.

During the trial, many Nazis were tortured by the Allies to provide "testimonies." Techniques included deprivation of sleep, beatings, use of electric shocks, and testicle crushing. Many German POWs reported themselves that they were being tortured. Moreover, most of the interrogators and judges at the Nuremberg Trials were Jewish themselves, resulting in a biased trial. Many Americans at the trial like Thomas Dodd admitted that 75% of them were Jewish.

B) There were several myths that were presented as evidence against the Nazis. They later turned out to be 100% false.

The Allies at Nuremberg used evidence that the Nazis made lampshades and soap from Jewish skin, which turned out to be false. Moreover, Nazis were also accused of using shrunken heads of Jewish prisoners. Many of these "heads" were actually from the amazon, and were not Jewish heads at all. This shows that not all "evidence" was actually true. There were probably other myths as well.

- Hoess's testimony is also unreliable. You stated how he declared that 2.5 million Jews in Auschwitz were killed. Well, in 1948, the Soviet government itself claimed that 4 million Jews died at Auschwitz. Then, in 1989, it claimed that only 1.5 million died at Auschwitz. Wikipedia itself now claims that 1 million died. The numbers are not very reliable as they were kept getting changed.

https://en.wikipedia.org...
https://en.wikipedia.org...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://aladinsmiraclelamp.wordpress.com...

- The 6 million figure.

If you look at several US journals (like the NY times), they kept stating how 6 million Jews were suffering/getting killed from the early 1900s till the mid 1900s. How did they exactly predict the 6 million figure? Do Jews have a history connection with the number 6?
https://www.youtube.com... (Video shows the number 6 million repeated several times from 1915 till 1938)

-The number of Jews killed

The number of Jews living in Nazi Occupied Areas could not exceed 4.5 million. Wikipedia states that in 1941, the number of Jews living in the Soviet Union was about 4.9 million (30 percent of Jews worldwide). That leaves us with about 4 to 4.5 million Jews in Nazi and Allied territories. Wikipedia states that 3 million Jews were murdered in Poland (90% of Polish Jews murdered). However, remember that not all Poland was occupied by the Germans. Wikipedia also states that about 39-40% of these 3 million Jews lived in Soviet occupied Poland. So that gives us roughly about 1.8 million Jews (60%) actually living in Nazi occupied Poland during 1939-1941. Also, many of these Jews (at least 300,000) were deported and migrated to the USSR, so that makes the number even lower. Wikipedia argues that the Nazis went on to kill the remaining 1.2 million Jews in USSR Poland and also about 2 million total in Ukraine and other USSR Eastern countries during Operation Barbarossa, etc. However, Nazis needed to only occupy land with about 1.5 million Jews to reach 6 million Jews. Furthermore, Nazis only extended to some parts of eastern USSR Poland and claimed some few territories before quickly losing them during the war. So it would not have been possible for the Nazis to kill a significant amount of Jews in USSR Poland and USSR Eastern states. They were using these countries as battleground locations too. How could they have the time to plan a systematic genocide?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
https://en.wikipedia.org...

So let's calculate the assumed maximum number of Jews exterminated at the hands of the Nazis. Remember, casualties of people from wars (ex Jews and others during Operation Barbarossa) do not constitute a genocide.

Nazi Poland: 1.8 million - at least 300,000 deported/evacuated = 1.5 million
Baltic Countries: Nazis only occupied some territories for a limited amount of time, USSR regained them.
Germany and Austria: 200,000
Ukraine, Belarus: Same reason stated for Baltic Countries
Hungary: 400,000
Romania: 300,000
Slovakia, Greece, Netherlands, Belgium, France, etc. = 360,00
Total: About 2.7 million Jews apparently exterminated.
Now, Wikipedia also states that "roughly two million Jews became Soviet citizens" after the USSR annexed territory from the remaining of Poland, Romania, and the Baltic States. So we could figure out that the Jews killed in Poland could be actually much less than 1.5 million and the Jews killed in Romania could be much less than 400,000. There were about 300,000 in Baltic Countries, so that leaves us with 1.7 million coming from Nazi Poland and Nazi Romania.
So the total number of Jews exterminated is now 2.7 million - 1.7 million = roughly 1 million Jews killed.
https://en.wikipedia.org...

Let's look at "where did the 6 million go?"
- First of all, the Jewish population did not suddenly drop 6 million from 1939 to 1950. As I stated above, the Soviet Jewish population increased after the USSR fully annexed countries that were under Nazi occupation. After the war, millions of Jews from the USSR gradually immigrated to areas like the United States, Israel, Canada, Australia, etc. In 1948 alone, 900,000 Jews arrived to Israel according to Wiki. Stalin himself wanted to send a lot Russia's Jews there.
https://en.wikipedia.org...

Either way, in my second argument there is much more concrete evidence to come that disproves the extermination of millions of Jews during WW2. I don't have much more characters remaining.
Capitalistslave

Con

I will address both of the points made in A) and B) by my opponent:
These are both bare assertion fallacies, as pointed out by the DOD official guide to debating on page 19. [1] In other words, you failed to provide proper evidence of these claims, or perhaps you are plagiarizing someone else's work, either way, it's bad. Since you didn't provide any evidence of these claims, I am going do dismiss these claims until you do.

As for your bit on Hoess's testimony, these are also bare assertion claims. You did mention wikipedia, which I did look up and I confirmed myself that they claim 1.1 million Jews were killed there [2] However, you provided no source or evidence that the Soviet Union claimed 4 million Jews were killed there and then 1.5 million. What these two differences in numbers from wikipedia and Hoess suggest, is perhaps it is not completely possible to know how many Jews were sent there, but both confirm Jews were sent there and killed. There is no reliable source claiming no Jews were killed at Auschwitz. So, it seems my opponent is conceding that between 1.1 million and 4 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz, since they did not prove no Jews were killed there.

Next my opponent tries to minimize the amount of Jews killed by claiming not all of Poland was occupied by Germany at this time, and that many of the Jews lived in Russia. It seems odd they are ignoring the fact Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Russia and at its greatest extent, had all of Poland under their control in addition to a chunk of Western Russia and Ukraine [3] This should be common knowledge as it would have been learned in history classes. So the number of Jews living in occupied territory is much more than 4.5 million.

My opponent then begins to tally up the number of Jewish deaths in each area, however, once more this is a bare assertion fallacy as they do not provide any sources or evidence for these numbers. I shall offer my own count of the Jews killed in each territory with sources.

1)About 2.6 million Jews were killed in Poland [4]
2) It is estimated that over 1 million Jews were killed by Einstatsgruppen in Ukraine [5]
3) 91-95% of the Jews were killed in Lithuania, which it had a Jewish Population of 263,000 in 1939, 2 years before German Occupation, thus roughly 240,000 Jews were killed there.[6]
4) An estimated 75,000 Jews were killed in Latvia by Nazi hands [7]
5) 1,950 were killed in Estonia [8]
6) 306,000 Jews were killed in Germany itself [9]
7) 76,000 Jews were killed in France [10]
8) Over 2 million Jews were killed in Russia [11]
9) 117,000 Jews were killed in Czechoslavia [12]
10) 150,000 Jews were killed in Austria [13]

I'm going to stop here since it's no longer necessary for me to provide more, I could also go into the Jews in the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, and Belgium, but the numbers above already equal more than 6 million.

So let's add that up 2.6 million plus 1 million, plus 240,000, plus 75,000, plus 1950, plus 306,000, plus 2 million, plus 117,000, plus 150,000 is 6,489,950

I'd like to also point out that my opponent conceded that 1 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz, but then below here claims only a total of 1 million Jews were killed. Unless Auschwitz was the only place the Nazis killed Jews, there is clearly something wrong with these numbers. It's a fact that Jews were killed by einsatzgruppe(as I pointed out before), and in other Jewish concentration camps, there were also concentration camps at Belzec, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Chelmno. Dachau, Ebensee, Flossenb"rg. [14]

Sources:
[1] https://docs.google.com...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[7] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[8] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[9] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[10] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[11] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[12] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[13] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[14] https://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by RonPaulConservative 1 year ago
RonPaulConservative
People should be able to own whatever property they want, production included
Posted by Nationalsocialist1488 1 year ago
Nationalsocialist1488
Do you believe in social programs such as free healthcare, free education, etc? And how do you think we will achieve them? Also, what's your opinion on the Federal Reserve Bank?
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
It depends on what you mean by private property. I think the workers themselves should own businesses and the means of production(so I think private property shouldn't exist in the business world), but I have no problem with a person owning property for their own house or living arrangements.

I suppose that's another difference between me and Marxists. I'm also okay with using a monetary system.

For those two reasons, that I am not opposed to private property for a person's living arrangements, and I'm not opposed to a monetary system, I'm not a communist but rather a socialist. Those are some differences between socialists and communists.
Posted by Nationalsocialist1488 1 year ago
Nationalsocialist1488
Do you agree that private property should be abolished? I think that is a form of totalitarianism.
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
Well, the difference between libertarian socialism and Marxism, is that the latter relies on a completely stateless society and if I'm not mistaken, there's not even a direct democracy under it. Libertarian socialism can range from having a very small government, through a republic, to a direct democracy. Generally libertarian socialism has some form of government. I'm specifically in favor of a direct democracy. Otherwise, in terms of economy, there isn't much difference between libertarian socialism and Marxism. That's probably why you thought I was a Marxist since you may have only seen me argue in terms of economy instead of government.
Posted by Nationalsocialist1488 1 year ago
Nationalsocialist1488
I thought you're a Communist haha. Judging by your debates, your beliefs are very similar to Marxist Socialism/ Karl Marx.
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
I would prefer to argue in favor of libertarian socialism: I'm a libertarian socialist not a Marxist socialist. I actually despise Marxism to a degree. But I would be up to debating on Libertarian socialism versus National Socialism if you want.
Posted by Nationalsocialist1488 1 year ago
Nationalsocialist1488
I would do that yes.
Posted by Nationalsocialist1488 1 year ago
Nationalsocialist1488
Maybe we can also debate in messaging why National Socialism is better than Marxist Socialism.
Posted by Capitalistslave 1 year ago
Capitalistslave
Sounds good, feel free to message me with your argument. I'm currently responding to another debate I'm involved in so I probably won't get to responding to you tonight, but I should within the next day or two.

Did you just want to pick up where we left off? In which case we each have only 2 rounds left?
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