The Instigator
Dave.Carter
Pro (for)
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The Contender
WCBC15
Con (against)
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The divinity of Jesus is a false doctrine that goes against the teachings of the Bible.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/14/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 470 times Debate No: 82561
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
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Dave.Carter

Pro

The divinity of Jesus is a false doctrine that goes against the teachings of the Bible.

'Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man' (Romans 1:22-23)

'for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee' (Hosea 11:9)

'God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man' (Numbers 23:19)

The word 'Messiah' does not mean God it means anointed (mashiach, Strong's Concordance 4890)

The word 'Christ' does not mean God it means anointed (Christos, Strong's Concordance 5547)

'God's son' does not mean God. 'Adam, which was the son of God' (Luke 3:38")was not God.

Jesus was created by God, 'the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature' (Colossians 1:15)

The divinity of Jesus is a false doctrine that goes against the teachings of the Bible.

Terms and conditions

Round 1 to 5. Counter my Biblical evidence and provide enough of your own Biblical evidence to sufficiently assert that the divinity of Jesus is not a false doctrine that goes against the teachings of the Bible.

I have given the maximum amount of rounds, maximum amount of time to argue and maximum word count. Please use each and every round to counter all of the Biblical evidence that I provide with your own Biblical evidence. I will counter your Biblical evidence with additional Biblical evidence.

Let the battle of the Bibles begin!
WCBC15

Con

I will show that 1. Jesus claimed to be God 2. Those who followed or knew Jesus claimed He is God.

Following are verses used to show that Jesus is/claimed to be God in flesh. The Scriptures used here are from the New American Standard Bible.

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." Here the apostle John says the God came down in human flesh.

John 5:18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." This verse here is a clear representation not only of how Jesus claimed to be God but that others knew what He was claiming.

John 8:24, "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am , you shall die in your sins."
Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there. John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'
In these two verses Jesus is quoting Exodus when HE says to Moses Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."

John 10:30-33, "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Here Paul says Jesus contained His Deity in the form a man.

Philippians 2:5-11 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom." Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."

The most glaring fact of Jesus claiming deity is not so much He calling Himself "Son of God" (which can be used to refer to deity) but Jesus calls Himself "Son of Man" which in context is calling Himself God. Jesus refers to Himself as Son of Man almost 100 times in the gospels and He does so in quoting the Old testament account of Daniel.
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)" Daniel speaks of the "son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven..He was given authority, glory and sovereign power"
With this in mind, consider these statements of Jesus in the New Testament Gospels:
(Matthew 24:30) At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
(John 5:27) (ESV)For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
(Mark 13:24-27) (ESV) So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time. But in those days, following that distress, "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken." At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
(Luke 21:27) At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (ESV)
Jesus also believed the Son of Man, the Son of God, and the Messiah (Christ) were the same person. Not only did He claim to be all three separately, but in an interesting passage He responds in the affirmative to the Jewish leadership"s linking both Son of God and Christ, then adds Son of Man:
Matthew 26:63-66The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" "He is worthy of death," they answered. (Matthew 26:63-66) (ESV)
Jesus understood the Son of Man to exist prior to His human birth:
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven,the Son of Man. (ESV)
John 6:62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! (ESV)
In summary, Jesus" favourite term to refer to Himself was "Son of Man." He understood the designation to refer to the divine Son of Man of Daniel 7 who would rule with glory and power. Moreover, He understood the Son of Man also to be the pre-existent Son of God and Messiah.(2)

The argument and verses Pro gives do not necessarily go against the biblical teaching that Jesus is a part of the Godhead (trinity). All the verses Pro uses i actually agree with, that being God (Jesus) was NOT just a "man" in the truest sense of the word. To only give verses about how God is not a man ,shows the person who uses those verses doesn't understand what it meant when God came down to take on human form. Would you need to find verses that say "God is not a bush" because he did take form of one when talking to moses. Thats the problem when arguing from the point that God couldn't take the form of a man because you end up limiting God.

Its interesting you would use Pauls words in Romans 1:22-23 to try and prove your point when Paul Himself believed Jesus was God. You have to understand that God was still God but just in human form, just like at the burning bush. Phil 2:5-11

Hosea 11:9 and Numbers 23:19 I agree with you that God is not man remember IN THE TRUEST SENSE OF THE WORD. He was God in Human form Phil 2:5-11

Im not going to argue Messiah or Christ cause thats pretty well known and taught that neither of those words means God. Ive personally never heard anyone say those words meant God.

Using Colossians 1:15 to support your claim by trying to take "firstborn" to mean "first created" actually hurts your position than it does help it. there is a Greek word for "first created," and it was in use at the time of Paul's writing to the Colossians. He did not use it here. The Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn" and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo, and it is not used here. Second, the Biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him . . . I also shall make him My first-born," (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence. firstborn is also a title that is transferable:
Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction."
Jer. 31:9, " . . . for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn."
Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created as the Jehovah's Witnesses say it means here. "Firstborn" can mean the first born person in a family, and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable. That is obvious since Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14) and is also the first born son of Mary. In addition, He is the pre-eminent one in all things. (1)

(1)https://carm.org...
(2) http://www.bethinking.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Dave.Carter

Pro

Thank you for accepting my debate challenge, I really do appreciate it. I will do my best to deal with each and every point that you make. If you do not feel that I have done so sufficiently then please inform me and I will do so in the following rounds.

I'm using strong's concordance to translate the original text.
O60;_7; (In [the]) O36;`1;`7;Q35; (beginning) O74;_7; (was) P01; (the) _5;a2;^7;_9;`2; (word) _4;^5;P54; (and) P01; (the) _5;a2;^7;_9;`2; (word) O74;_7; (was) `0;`1;P56;`2; (with) `4;P56;_7; (the) _2;^9;a2;_7; (God) _4;^5;P54; (and) _2;^9;a2;`2; (God) O74;_7; (was) P01; (the) _5;a2;^7;_9;`2; (word)
'In [the] beginning was the word and the word was WITH the God and God was the word'

When John writes 'The God' he is referring to 'the God of the Hebrews; the one and only God'. He does write that the word was with 'the God' (Yahweh) however he does not write that 'the' God was 'the Word', he writes, 'God was the word'. The definitive article `the' is not used making God a predicate of the subject 'the word', 'ho logos'. The predicate is used to denote the attributes of the subject. God is the word therefore reads that the word is about God.

John 1:1 simply defines 'the word', it is not until verse 14 that John writes that word then becomes flesh. John 1:18 is clear in informing us that no one has ever seen God. If this verse was making it clear that Jesus was God then John is contradicting himself in the same verse.

John 5:18,Jesus was accused of making himself equal with God. He was accused. He at no point ever claimed to be equal to God. The Bible tells us that this is why the Jews wanted to kill him. They were constantly looking for a reason to kill him. Did Jesus say that God is his father and only his father? No. He said he is your father and my father, your God and my God. (John 20:17)

John 8:24, "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am , you shall die in your sins."
Read a few verses along to verse 28 and Jesus confirms who he is, does he say that he is God? No. ' Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.'

John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'
In these two verses Jesus is quoting Exodus when HE says to Moses Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."
What God said to Abraham in Exodus 3:14 was 'I am what I am'. What Jesus said to the scribes who sought to kill him in John 8:58 was 'before Abraham was I am' then he turned around and ran away because they were throwing stones at him in order to kill him. Clearly he was interrupted and did not finish his sentence to avoid being stoned to death.
Now some say that it is a mistranslation and that a more honest one would be that Jesus said 'before Abraham was I was. In this case he is simply saying that he existed before Abraham. If however we are to assume that it is the correct translation and that when Jesus said 'I am' he meant 'God' then he is still not claiming to be God because the sentence reads, 'before Abraham was, God. If John 8:58 read that Jesus said 'before Abraham was, I am I am' then it could possibly read that he is actually claiming to be God but it does not and therefore he did not claim to be God.

John 10:30-33 Read the next verses and Jesus clarifies that he is not God. John 34-38 'Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Clearly Jesus is pointing out that he is doing God's work, he is carrying out Gods purpose, therefore he is one with God in purpose.

Col. 2:9 States that God dwelt in Jesus, it does not claim that Jesus is God.
Revelation 21:3 states that God will dwell with the people. Clearly God did dwell in Jesus according to scripture, this evidence that he is not divine, not that he is.

When you read Philippians 2:6 in the original Greek it states that Jesus found equality with God was not something to be grasped, this is further evidence that Jesus did not consider himself to be equal to God. Paul considered him to be Gods servant. What did Jesus tell us about being a servant. Let us take a look,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. (John 13:16)

Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom." Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."
The word Theos used here would make a lot of sense as given to a man representing God. I pointed out above that Jesus informed the scribes that such a title can be given to men in authority, especailly if they represent God, in particularly a Judge.

(John 5:27) (ESV)For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
Jesus also tells the disciples that they will sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel yet they are not considered divine.
'And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel' (Matthew 19:28).
It cannot be denied that this is indeed only power that God has. The Bible reads that it is God"s power that he has given to Jesus. As we will see over and over again Jesus takes no credit for the power that God has given him which is against the very character of God;
"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak" (John 12:49).
'I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.' John 8:28
Normally when I debate the divinity of Jesus the first couple of rounds consist of me pointing out that neither the Messiah, Christ and/or Son of God means God or can be given as evidence of God. Perhaps in the future I should point out that 'Son of man' does not mean God either. Daniel does not claim that the Son of man is God. Ezekiel is also referred to as the son of man and we rightly do not believe that this means that he is God.

Please understand that it is not that I do not 'understand what it meant when God came down to take on human form', I understand what most Christians believe that it meant and I am and will continue to prove that it is an incorrect and unbiblical concept. We do not need verses to state that God is not a bush because fortunately as far as I know there is not anyone that believes the bush to be God. Sadly when it comes to Jesus this is not the case, hence the debate.

We have more Biblical evidence clearly stating that Paul did not believe that Jesus was God and we simply must take this into account whilst examining any of his ambiguous writings that you have suggested claim that Jesus is God.
'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus' (1 Timothy 2:5)

'That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him' (Ephesians 1:17)
Hosea 11:9 and Numbers 23:19 I agree with you that God is not man remember IN THE TRUEST SENSE OF THE WORD. He was God in Human form Phil 2:5-11
Jesus was a man. I do not think it is necessary for me to provide numerous Bible verses clearly stating that he was a man (although I will give one below anyway). You are claiming that God became a man which clearly contradicts Biblical scripture. With the greatest of respect stating that Jesus was IN THE TRUEST SENSE OF THE WORD he was God in Human form' is simply not an adequate rebuttal.
'Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:' (Acts 2:22)

Colossians 1:15 - I see your point that firstborn can have an alternative meaning than something that is created however Paul writes that Jesus is the first born of every creature 'ktisis'. Ktisis is something created by God. Out of everything created by God Jesus is the first born. This clearly groups Jesus together with God's creation rendering Jesus a created being.
WCBC15

Con

Sorry I've been heading a few thanksgiving charities mixed with church so I will have to pass this round. I am ready to give more arguments and rebuttals when the holiday is close to over.
Debate Round No. 2
Dave.Carter

Pro

I hope that my opponent had a great Thanksgiving and I look forward to them providing their response from round two.
WCBC15

Con

WCBC15 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Dave.Carter

Pro

For some reason this debate has experencied some technical difficulties. If you are still interested in debating the divinity of Jesus with me then please continue and respond to round two.
WCBC15

Con

WCBC15 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Dave.Carter

Pro

My oponant has demonstrated that the divinity of Jesus is indead a false doctrine that goes against the teachings of the Bible.
WCBC15

Con

If Jesus is a created being and not the eternal God then you end up with a conflict when you run into the fact that ALL things were created by Him. So the question is, is Jesus the creator or the created? The bible gives the answer that HE is the Eternal creator. In John 1:1 Jesus doesn't contradict himself its actually clear that no one has ever seen God in Its whole supernatural state. You find the instance where Jacob "wrestles with God", is that a contradiction? Not at all because it wasn't the Fullness of God.

John 5:18 "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because HE not only had broken the sabbath, but (HE) said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." This wasn't just some random accusation against Jesus but they were his actual words. This clearly shows Jesus claiming divinity.

John 8:24 You first need to understand the significance of Him quoting Daniel there. In Daniel that prophecy is referring to God returning to redeem HIs people.

John 8:58 Im curious as to why you would assume he was interrupted, because nowhere in the bible does it imply Jesus was trying say more cause when you let the bible speak for itself youll find Jesus was quoting exodus just as it was. The point is not that I AM should be translated into God but that the "I AM" is a reference to divinity. If Jesus was just a man in the strictest sense than he couldn't have existed before Abraham but He claims to be the "I AM' which in turn Jesus is claiming to be God.

John 10:34-38 In the verses i showed Jesus made clear that He is one with the Father. The verses you bring up only shows that Jesus isn't referring to divinity because He refers to them as gods only according to their Law which was handed down by the ONE TRUE GOD. Read what the verses say, it says Jesus does "The Fathers" work not "Gods" if you read the bible through a unitarian lens verses will become distorted.

Col 2:9 Read very carefully what the verse says "In Him ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily." All is the key word as well as the "Godhead" the only reference in the Old and New Testament of God dwelling in us is His Spirit Psalms 51:11and John 14:26. Not the "fullness" of God being The Son and the Father.

Phil 2:6 Again Looking at the bible through unitarian lenses will distort scripture. it actually states "Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," (NIV Phil 2:9) other versions use robbery. This verse is in no way in your favor because what Paul is saying Jesus didn't think it was blasphemous or grasping or taking away from God to be equal with God.

Heb 1:8 So what human has a throne forever? What human gets praise and honor only due to God? None does but God

In the debate "Did jesus claim to be God" I've noticed that the Unitarian always demands that the Bible must have Jesus say "I am God" but they don't hold the same standard of Jesus saying "I am not God" if you look at the divinity claims Jesus makes whether it be from Old Testament prophecy or demanding worship only due to God.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Dave.Carter 1 year ago
Dave.Carter
Are you sure?
Posted by WCBC15 1 year ago
WCBC15
I still am.
Posted by Dave.Carter 1 year ago
Dave.Carter
My friend, I hope you are well. Will you be continuing in our debate? I'm happy for you to utilise the remaining time but If you are no longer interested in participating then I will proceed with another debate.
Many thanks,
Dave.
Posted by WCBC15 1 year ago
WCBC15
I will thanks
Posted by Dave.Carter 1 year ago
Dave.Carter
Please inform me when you will be ready to proceed. I will allow the clock to continue counting down before I skip round two in order for you to give your argument in round three. This allocates you almost six days to provide your response. Happy Thanksgiving.
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