The Instigator
Valtin
Pro (for)
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The Contender
MacMiller
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The doctrine of Twelver Shia is false according to the Qur'an

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Valtin
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/2/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,330 times Debate No: 53919
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (34)
Votes (1)

 

Valtin

Pro

The doctrine of Twelver Shia is false according to the Qur'an, please have knowledge on the Rafida before accepting the debate.

MacMiller

Con

Every word of the Quran was Muhammad's own, which he put on the tongue of his imaginary friend Allah (AKA Muhammad). Islam is out and out fraudulent. (For detailed explanation of each teaching go to islamreform net

Most evil teaching # 1: Islam's paradise of evil, demented, depraved sexual perversity

Verse 9:111 " Muslim's passport to paradise

"Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph."

Islam teaches that if Muslims slay or are slain (kill or are killed) in the service of God, i.e. Jihad, they are guaranteed accession to Allah's paradise of depraved sexual perversity. Islam's Paradise is filled with whorish virgins possessing voluptuous breasts and lustrous eyes. Muslims, blessed with an access to Paradise, will have 72 such virgins to engage in incessant copulation. Furthermore, a Muslim's surest way of getting a passport to Paradise, says Allah, is to get slain while trying to kill the kafirs. The Quran is no more a holy book than Playboy, Penthouse, and Hustler are holy books. Indeed, the Quran is worse in that it incites unrestrained murder of infidels.

Most evil teaching # 2: Kill the infidels wherever you find them

Quran 9:5 (the infamous verse of the sword inciting mass murder):

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Verse 9:5 teaches Muslims to commit mass-murder. The kafirs must either convert to Islam, who would keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate (zakat), or be murdered. Command for unconditional slaying of humans, God's own creations, by other humans " when presented as a sacred teaching of the almighty Creator " becomes a most evil teaching.

It is needless to say that such teachings never came from the God.

Most evil teaching # 3: Extortion Verse 9:29:

"Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low."

Here, Allah the Islamic God commands Muslims to attack and kill the so-called 'people of the book' (i.e. Jews and Christians), until they are defeated and submitted to the supremacy of Islam and, in willing humiliation, pay jizya (submission) tax to Muslims. Like verse 9:5, 9:29 is a call to mass murder and extermination. Only Hitler had openly instructed his followers to exterminate the Jews so completely. When such a teaching is presented as a teaching of the Creator of the Universe, it becomes extremely evil.

Most evil teaching # 4: Verse 5:32/5:33 " verse of barbaric cruelty

In order to portray Islam as a wonderful religion, Muslim taqqiyah tacticians, including President Obama, will always quote the verse 5:32, which says, "We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind."

Verse 5:32 is a teaching of mass extermination and genocide. When President Barrack Obama gave his speech in Cairo, he quoted from Verse 5.32 "whosoever killeth a human being, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind."

Isn't this a wonderful teaching from a wonderful God worthy of quotation by the President? Wait a moment while I grab my handkerchief and clear the tears from my eyes. It is just such a beautiful teaching. "whosoever killeth a human being, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind." Only a true God could create such a teaching of love. Could provide such guidance for mankind. A divine, timeless teaching worthy of a divine, timeless God.

But wait a moment. The President did not quote Verse 5:32 correctly. He left out a most important part of the teaching. God has created in his infinite wisdom two exceptions to his teaching." whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind," We can killeth a human being for manslaughter and corruption in the earth and it will not be the killing of all mankind.

And what does the exception "corruption in the land" mean. All human beings who do not convert to Islam have declared war on Islam and Allah, are a danger to Allah, and therefore have created corruption in the land and must be murdered. All Apostates of Islam by rejecting Islam are creating corruption in the land. Muslim women who demand equality with men are creating corruption in the land. All Muslim girls who refuse to obey their fathers by adopting Western culture are creating corruption in the land. And on and on.

President Obama quoted Verse 5:32 in his Cairo speech as a symbol of the wonderful, wonder of Islam. The President quoted a teaching that justifies the mass murder of 305,000,000 Americans who are non-Muslim. This is a teaching of madness masquerading as a teaching of love. And how are the kafirs to be murdered for making "corruption in the land." Read the following Verse 5:33

Verse 5:33 says:

"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;"

Teachings as contained in this verse " "they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land" " are cruel and barbaric in nature. When those teachings are presented as God's, it becomes extremely evil, no better than those Hitler had committed.

Most evil teaching # 5: Verse 65.4 -- Allah's teaching of pedophilia

Quran 65:4 says:

"And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed divorce period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens) (give birth) and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him."

The most important duty of any species is the care and protection of its young. The prime duty of mankind is to raise children in a safe and caring environment, so they can progress into responsible adults. There is no worse crime than the sexual abuse and exploitation of children. But verse 65:4 clearly approves marriages and sexual copulation with pre-pubescent little girls, who haven't started menstruating yet. And Muhammad at the age of 50 duly complied with this sanction of Allah by marrying his niece Aisha, only 6 years old.

This is an extremely evil teaching. Allah is a pedophile monster.

Most evil teaching # 6: Verse 33:50 " sanctioning unrestrained slavery and rape for Muhammad by his Allah

Verse 33.50 says:

"O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those [slaves] whom your right hand po
Debate Round No. 1
Valtin

Pro

Damn I was so excited that I got a debate challange, but in the end nope, anyways if you want to debate on the Qur'an being violet or not, sure we can do it now, this debate has been changed to 'Is the Qur'an violent'.

In 9:111 It states that if you fight in the way of God you will get to heaven, God willing.

Another verse clarifies this easily, how to fight in the way of Allah? 2:190 "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." Self-defence is prescribed in the Qur'an, not what has Con said, he further says that we will get sexy woman if we kill the infidels, which is not true.

9:5 :

Let’s read the verse in context 9:1-9:5:
Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty. Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (PICKTHAL, Quran 9:1-5)

This verse is always quoted out of context, If we read from start it states that there was a treaty, which the Pagans of Arab broke. Therefore Allah gave them 4 months as 9:2 states in order to amend the treaty. Verse 9:4 states that the punishment prescribed in 9:5 is ONLY to those who broke the treaty and NOT to those who abided by the treaty. Therefore the context of 9:5 is of war with the pagan Arabs who broke the treaty yet refused to amend it in 4 months.

Further in 9:6 It says “And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not." (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 9:6)

9:29 :

Quran 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 9:29)

This verse is referring to the Islamic Concept called “Jizya”, which Shaikh Sayed Sabiq in the Fiqh Alsunna (a commonly used source of fiqh[rulings (Fatwa) of Muslim Islamic jurists]), describes as “the underlying root of the word jizya is jaza, and defines it as “A sum of money to be put on anyone who enters the themah (protection and the treaty of the Muslims) from the people of the book“.

Regarding the amount of jizya Shaykh Abu’l-Hasan Al-Mawardi (d. 1058CE) writes in his book Al-Mawardi, al-Ahkam as-Sultaniyyah, Ta-Ha Publishers Ltd. 1996, pp. 209-210:

“The fuqaha (Jurists) differ as to the amount of the Jizya. Abu Hanifa considers that those subject to this tax are of three kinds: the rich from whom forty-eight dirhams are taken; those of average means from whom twenty four are taken, and the poor from whom twelve dirhams are taken: he thus stipulated the minimum and maximum amounts and prohibits any further judgement on behalf of those responsible for its collection. Malik, however, does not fix its minimum and maximum amount and considers that those responsible should make their own judgement as to the minimum and maximum. Ash-Shafi’i considers that the minimum is a dinar, and that it is not permitted to go below this while he does not stipulate the maximum, the latter being dependant on the ijtihad (judgement) of those responsible: the Imam, however, should try to harmonise between the different amounts, or to exact an amount in accordance with people’s means.”

In conclusion, this verse refers to a non-muslim who doesn’t pay poll-tax in Islamic State and thus does not contribute to the financial needs of the territory. It is generally agreed by the four major Jurists that jizya money is based upon one’s income. We ought also not forget that muslims are also obliged to pay Zakat.

5:32/5:33 :

"In order to portray Islam as a wonderful religion, Muslim taqqiyah tacticians(What?!!), including President Obama, will always quote the verse 5:32,"

"Verse 5:32 is a teaching of mass extermination and genocide. "

No the verse is saying that if you kill innocent human being then as if you killed the whole of humanity, and if you save one human being it is as if you saved the whole mankind.

The verse further says that if you kill a man who murdered or spread corruption in the land, then you did not kill the whole of humanity, further interprations by the master Tafsir sheikh macmiller, interprates it as his wishful thinking allows.

Then shows the punishment of the corrupters.

"verse 65:4 clearly approves marriages and sexual copulation with pre-pubescent little girls, who haven't started menstruating yet. "

The verse says: "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses"

Atleast show what the verses say.

"And Muhammad at the age of 50 duly complied with this sanction of Allah by marrying his niece Aisha, only 6 years old."

Aisha is not even his niece, this man does not even know what he is talking about.

Ibn Abbas clarifies 65:4 "(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months. Another man asked: “what is the waiting period for those women who are pregnant?” (And for those with child) i.e. those who are pregnant, (their period) their waiting period (shall be till they bring forth their burden) their child. (And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah) and whoever fears Allah regarding what he commands him, (He maketh his course easy for him) He makes his matter easy; and it is also said this means: He will help him to worship Him well."

Regards.

MacMiller

Con

My argument is not only that the Qu'ran teaches violent, but your "prophet" is a false one. In 9:111 It states that if you fight in the way of God you will get to heaven, God willing.

Another verse clarifies this easily, how to fight in the way of Allah? 2:190 "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." Self-defence is prescribed in the Qur'an, not what has Con said, he further says that we will get sexy woman if we kill the infidels, which is not true. My opponent states a verse that clearly contradicts itself.

The Qu'ran is thought as to be a holy book. If it is a holy book why does it have so many historical errors? In Sura 2:241 Muhammad confuses the persons of Saul and Gideon.

In Sura 2:55-60 the Israelites were said to be "a scanty band" vastly inferior to the Egyptians. But in Exodus 1:7-10 the Egyptian king said to his people that the Israelites had become "more and mightier than we".

The Koran confused the sister of Moses (Miriam) with Mary, the mother of Jesus. In Hebrew, Miriam and Mary are the same names.

How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur'an speaks about the annunciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21. The Christian Bible clearly indicated one angel; "In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth," Luke 1:26

What about Noah's son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Sura 37:77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns.

Sura 7:136, 7:59 say Noah's flood took place in Moses' day. Did anyone tell Moses that?

Sura 14:37, says Abraham lived in the valley of Mecca. The Bible says he lived in Hebron, Israel. (Genesis 13:18, 23:2, 35:27)

Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days.

Suras 21:51-71; 37:97,98, says that Abraham was thrown into a fire [by Nimrod]. Nimrod and Abraham did not live at the same time. Muhammad was always mixing people together in the Qur'an who did not live at the same time. The Bible tells us Nimrod lived many centuries before Abraham.

Sura 6:74, says Abraham (called millata-Ibrahim in the Qur'an) father's name was Azar. The Bible says it was Terah (Genesis 11:27).

Sura 12:21ff, says the man who bought Joseph was named Aziz. The Bible says it was Potiphar.

Islam rejects Christ died on the Cross : According to the Qur"an, and to Muslim tradition, He was never crucified. There is a verse in the Qu"ran which says that "they have not crucified Him but it was likened unto Him." In some of their traditions, they claim that it was Judas Iscariot who was crucified on the cross. Their argument is that God, who sent such a great rasool as Jesus the Son of Mary, would never allow him to die such a shameful death on the cross. Sure 4, 157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.";- But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Sure 4, 158. 158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Sure 4, 159. 159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Sure 5, 17. Sure 5 17. They disbelieved indeed those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and every one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

Muhammad also was a false prophet. He was a murderer, rapist and a pedophile. Muslim activists in the West have been using the tactic of claiming that they worship the same god as the Christians in order to gain legitimacy and acceptance. They have been using the name "God" in place of "Allah" in many translations of the Qur'an.

Muslims DO NOT pray to the same God (Yahweh/ Jehovah of Holy Scripture) of Christians and Jews! Yahweh is transliterated from the Hebrew YHVH.

Before Muhammad the Arabs had 365 gods - one for each day of the year. Muhammad picked Allah (the Arab moon god).

They claim the founder of Islam is a prophet named Muhammad...however Muhammad himself says he is not a prophet and has never personally heard from God...in fact Muhammad who heard voices thought himself it was from evil spirits....his wife encouraged him to change his mind and claim God had spoken to him...

Muhammad was a pedophile, having sexual relations with a 6 year old and 9 year old girl.

Muhammad performed no miracles, spoke no prophecies,
and died like all mortal men

Islam claims the Prophet Muhammad was foretold in the Torah and Bible:

The coming of Prophet Muhammad had been foretold in the Torah. God had said to Moses: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him" Deuteronomy 18:18

This was fulfilled in John 1:45, "We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." Nope..not Muhammad! It was Jesus of Nazareth!

There are more than 100 verses in the Qur'an (Koran) advocating the use of violence to spread Islam. There are exactly 123 verses in the Qur'an about killing and fighting.

Qur'an 9:5, known as "the verse of the sword," declares, "Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem."
The Koran was written 500 years after the Bible and Muhammad couldn't get his history straight? Who was talking to his head? Certainly wasn't the Most High God.

Murder, rape, plunder and destruction are all perfectly fine with Allah - if done in the name of Islam

Koran (Qur'an) 8:67-68
Muhammad justified his crimes with divine revelation:

The details of all his criminal onslaughts in the form of battles and assassinations are chronicled in this article in a chronological manner. One should note that every time the 'Apostle of Peace' committed one of his criminal onslaughts, he always justified the crimes by quickly claiming a 'divine revelation' which conveniently removed the blame from his bloodied hands.

Muhammad was married to a 6 year old Jewish girl, while he was 51, and he had 11 wives

Islamic fundamentalism promotes jihad (holy war), against those of other religious and political views.

In addition to good works, salvation is sought though observance of the Five Pillars: reciting "there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger," praying five times per day, fasting, giving alms (donations to the poor), and a pilgrimage to Mecca.

The Arabic word Islam means "submission to the will of God" and a person who submits is called a Muslim. The Qur"an (or, Koran), the Torah, the Psalms of the Old Testament, and the Gospel of the New Testament are regarded as holy books. However, only the Qur"an is considered uncorrupted even though it was written 500 years after the Bible and is filled with historical and scientific blunders...

Islam rejects the Trinity doctrine, the deity of Christ and His Sonship, claiming that Jesus was only a great prophet. Muhammad is considered to be the greatest prophet, whose coming was allegedly predicted by Christ. Jesus told us The Holy Spirit was coming, the Spirit of God!
Debate Round No. 2
Valtin

Pro

I am confused, first this debate is about the doctrine of twelver Shia, but then I changed it to is the Qur'an violent because of Con's argument now he is going for supposed errors in the Qur'an?

"The Qu'ran is thought as to be a holy book. If it is a holy book why does it have so many historical errors? In Sura 2:241 Muhammad confuses the persons of Saul and Gideon."

2:241 "And for divorced women is a provision according to what is acceptable - a duty upon the righteous."

How is this verse related to Saul or Gideon?(http://quran.com...)

"In Sura 2:55-60 the Israelites were said to be "a scanty band" vastly inferior to the Egyptians. But in Exodus 1:7-10 the Egyptian king said to his people that the Israelites had become "more and mightier than we"."

Let us read 2:55-60 "And [recall] when you said, "O Moses, we will never believe you until we see Allah outright"; so the thunderbolt took you while you were looking on.Then We revived you after your death that perhaps you would be grateful.And We shaded you with clouds and sent down to you manna and quails, [saying], "Eat from the good things with which We have provided you." And they wronged Us not - but they were [only] wronging themselves.And [recall] when We said, "Enter this city and eat from it wherever you will in [ease and] abundance, and enter the gate bowing humbly and say, 'Relieve us of our burdens.' We will [then] forgive your sins for you, and We will increase the doers of good [in goodness and reward]."But those who wronged changed [those words] to a statement other than that which had been said to them, so We sent down upon those who wronged a punishment from the sky because they were defiantly disobeying.And [recall] when Moses prayed for water for his people, so We said, "Strike with your staff the stone." And there gushed forth from it twelve springs, and every people knew its watering place. "Eat and drink from the provision of Allah , and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption."

Now please how is related to what you have said?

"
The Koran confused the sister of Moses (Miriam) with Mary, the mother of Jesus. In Hebrew, Miriam and Mary are the same names."

Does the Bible confuse Jesus son of Mary as Jesus the son of david? no, It is the same thing with the Qur'an, they named Jesus as son of david because he is righteous, samething with Mary as the son of Aaron.

Mughira b. Shu'ba reported: "When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "O sister of Harun (Aaron)" (i. e. Mary) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book on General Behaviour (Kitab Al-Adab), Book 025, Number 5326)"

This Hadith clarifies it.

"How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur'an speaks about the annunciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21. The Christian Bible clearly indicated one angel; "In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth," Luke 1:26"

In Sura 3:42 "And [mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds."

It is not the annunciation of birth of Christ.

In Sura 19:17 It says one angel announced the Birth of Christ.

"What about Noah's son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Sura 37:77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns."

Yes one son drowned the rest of the family was saved, your point?

"Sura 7:136, 7:59 say Noah's flood took place in Moses' day. Did anyone tell Moses that?"

7:136 says "So We took retribution from them, and We drowned them in the sea because they denied Our signs and were heedless of them."

7:59 says "We had certainly sent Noah to his people, and he said, "O my people, worship Allah ; you have no deity other than Him. Indeed, I fear for you the punishment of a tremendous Day."

what? it does not say that!

"Sura 14:37, says Abraham lived in the valley of Mecca. The Bible says he lived in Hebron, Israel. (Genesis 13:18, 23:2, 35:27)"

The Bible also says that Abraham went to the desert of Paran which is Mecca, and went to the land of Kedar.

"Then God opened her [Hagar] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:19-22)"

"Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days."

the word used in Arabic is "Thuma" which also means simultaneously, therefore it was simltaneously not 8 days.

"Suras 21:51-71; 37:97,98, says that Abraham was thrown into a fire [by Nimrod]. Nimrod and Abraham did not live at the same time. Muhammad was always mixing people together in the Qur'an who did not live at the same time. The Bible tells us Nimrod lived many centuries before Abraham."

Wikipedia disagrees "The Bible does not mention any meeting between Nimrod and Abraham, although a confrontation between the two is said to have taken place, according to several Jewish and Islamic traditions."[1]

It is also mentioned in the Talmud.[2]

"Sura 6:74, says Abraham (called millata-Ibrahim in the Qur'an) father's name was Azar. The Bible says it was Terah (Genesis 11:27)."

'he name given for this man in the Qur'an is Āzar (Arabic: آزر‎), though Arab genealogists related the name of Abraham's father as TāraM17; (Arabic: تارح‎). Even though the name is different in Islamic tradition to that in the Hebrew Bible, there is no doubt that the same figure is spoken of in both texts.' [3]

"Sura 12:21ff, says the man who bought Joseph was named Aziz. The Bible says it was Potiphar."

Sura 12:21 does not mention Aziz(http://quran.com...)

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2]http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com...
[3]http://en.wikipedia.org...

Then he keeps ranting on Islam and provides no proof for his claims on Muhammad pbuh, and says the Qur'an is false because the Bible disagrees with it...
MacMiller

Con

SuraTranslationError
86:6-7Sahih International
He was created from a fluid, ejected,Emerging from between the backbone and the ribs.

Yusuf Ali He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

Shakir He is created of water pouring forth, Coming from between the back and the ribsThis is an error and totally wrong. Sperm or even semen does not come from between backbone and the ribs. How is it possible that the creator who knows it all does not know where semen comes from. This one error is enough to prove that it was Muhammad making these Quran Ayas and are not revelations from any God.
16:69Sahih International
Then eat from all the fruits and follow the ways of your Lord laid down [for you]. There emerges from their bellies a drink, varying in colors, in which there is healing for people. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought.

Muhsin Khan
Then, eat of all fruits, and follow the ways of your Lord made easy (for you).There comes forth from their bellies, a drink of varying colour wherein is healing for men. Verily, in this is indeed a sign for people who think.

Pickthall
Then eat of all fruits, and follow the ways of thy Lord, made smooth (for thee). There cometh forthfrom their bellies a drink divers of hues, wherein is healing for mankind. Lo! herein is indeed a portent for people who reflect.

Yusuf Ali
Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men: verily in this is a Sign for those who give thought.

Shakir
Then eat of all the fruits and walk in the ways of your Lord submissively. There comes forth from within it a beverage of many colours, in which there is healing for men; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who reflect.This is another big error from all knowing God. Honeybees do not eat fruits

Diet of Honey bees
Honey bees natural diet is nectar and pollen from flowers, not fruits even though they do suck the juice of fruits as well when can not find flowers. Also they do not take juice from all the fruits. Worker bees feed the larvae royal jelly first, and later offer them pollen.

http://insects.about.com...
51:49Sahih International
And of all things We created two mates; perhaps you will remember.

Pickthall And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect.

Yusuf Ali And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction.

Shakir And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful. This is another error. Everything is not in pairs.

Many bacteria, protists, fungi, and plants reproduce asexually.
http://www.answering-islam.org...
2:29 It is He Who (prepared the earth for your life before He gave you life, and) created all that is in the world for you (in order to create you - the human species - and make the earth suitable for your life); then He directed (His Knowledge, Will, Power, and Favor) to the heaven and formed it into seven heavens. He has full knowledge of everything. This is a colossal error. Totally wrong sequence, earth was created way after universe was created. It is so well known to everybody in 21st century that I don't think any source is required.
5:116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? Error again. Mary was never worshipped by Christians as part of the Trinity. It's the holy ghost.
16:66 And verily in cattle (too) will ye find an instructive sign. From what is within their bodies between excretions and blood, We produce, for your drink, milk, pure and agreeable to those who drink it. This is wrong. The mammary glands where the milk is produced and stored are outside the body, while the excrement is in the intestines which is way inside the body. the two are nowhere near each other.
2:230Sahih International
Indeed, Allah [alone] has knowledge of the Hour and sends down the rain and knows what is in the wombs. And no soul perceives what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul perceives in what land it will die. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.

Muhsin Khan
Verily, Allah! With Him (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tomorrow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily, Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware (of things). This is wrong. Quran was written for all the times. Allah is not the only one who knows what's inside the womb? In 21st century, medical science can easily determine baby's gender
67:5Muhsin Khan And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils), and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.

Pickthall And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

Yusuf Ali And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.Are stars missiles which go after devils? Stars have nothing to do with missiles. This is flat out stupid statement, not expected from all wise and knowing god. It was Muhammad cooking these up.
7:54 &
41:9-12Pickthall

7:54. Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days,

Pickthall
41:9-12. Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower. Mathematical Error 7:54 Says heaven(universe) was created in 6 days, but according to 41:9-12 it took 8 days
2+4+2=8 days

Also wrong sequences, earth was not created before heaven(universe).
33:36 It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Apostle to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path Here Allah's decision turned out to be totally WRONG. Muhammad made Allah revealed above Ayah to force Zanib to marry his adopted son who used to be a slave before Muhammad freed him. She rejected him first and did no want to marry him.

Tafsir below.

And it is not [fitting] for any believing man or believing woman, when God and His Messenger have decided on a matter, to have (read takuna or yakuna) a choice in their matter, in contravention of the decision of God and His Messenger. This [verse] was revealed regarding 'Abd Allah b. Jahsh and his sister Zaynab, whose hand the Prophet had asked for in marriage, but meaning on behalf of Zayd b. Haritha. They were loathe to this [proposal] when they found out [that it was on the latter's behalf], for they had thought that the Prophet (s) wanted to marry her himself. But afterwards they consented because of the [following part of the] verse: And whoever disobeys God and His Messenger has certainly strayed into manifest error.
Debate Round No. 3
34 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by lomana 3 years ago
lomana
Just reply whether you would continue this after your exams or not...

I meant only post a yes or a no here ..if you can
Posted by lomana 3 years ago
lomana
Best of luck for your exams :)

Would you consider continuing this afterwards?

ok let us assume for one second that Ibrahim was an Imam, ok where is Imamate Ali, Hussian, Hassan, As-sadiq,etc.
[Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

Ibraheem a.s asked about his descendants , Allah excluded the wrongdoers... not that none among your descendants wil be an imam, now you see Muhammad (s.a.w.w) is ibraheem's descendant, and so are ali hassan hussain jafar sadiq etc... I heard (only heard) because I dont have any reference forr this that Muhammad(s.a.w.w) is an imam also,, that is to say something like imam al mursaleen or imam al anbia.. I can be wrong on this ...so I ll keep searching..

Just reply whether you would continue this after your exams or not...

I ll try and find out more regarding this and what was the imamah that ibraheem was granted etc ..

you prepare for your exams and best of luck for that..
Posted by Valtin 3 years ago
Valtin
I apologize because I do not have much time and cannot expand on this more, I have final exams next week and I have to prepare.
Posted by Valtin 3 years ago
Valtin
I apologize I should I have clarified that I only deem Twelver shia who believe in the Aqeedah not Muslim.

Shirk I am talking about is giving attributes of Allah to his creation, invoking other than Allah.

Also what does that Ayah prove, Ibrahim was an Imam, so? your point, it does not say that there will be successors of Muhammad(PBUH) called Imam, and now there is ranks? ok let us assume for one second that Ibrahim was an Imam, ok where is Imamate Ali, Hussian, Hassan, As-sadiq,etc.

Muslim (4223) narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "I will be the leader of the sons of Adam on the Day of Resurrection, and the first one for whom the grave is opened, and the first one to intercede and the first one whose intercession will be accepted."

this shows that Prophet Muhammad is best and leader of Mankind, but in the Qur'an Prophet Muhammad was not given 'Imama' he is the best and leader of mankind yet he has not Imamate?
wait, oh yes, because these ranks do not exist.
Posted by lomana 3 years ago
lomana
Sorry I missed out the shirk part
I am tired of Shia's coming to me telling me that we are all Muslims, no you intelligent defect, people who do Shirk are not Muslim! as some Shia's do, I am used to see shia use Taqiyaa, also many Shia's come and say they are Muslim and refuse to say Shia or Sunni, be careful I've seen plenty of Shia and can see through taqiya

What is the shirk you are talking about .... only if you would like to respond...

And why do shias keep coming to you to tell you that we are all muslims,
What is it that they would achieve if you believed they were muslims or not?

I havent lost anything if you think im shia , I can live with the fact that you kept on assuming I was lying or using taqiya for God knows what reason... and that I tried to hide my sect from you..

Anyhow, I learnt alot through this communication ... and I would once again thank you.
Posted by lomana 3 years ago
lomana
I know taraveeh is not mandatory, and I can tell this to others... but still thankyou for the suggestion :)
you dont seem to be considering my point regarding taraveeh, anyways...

Give me that verse that supports Imamah, that clearly says that Imams are going to be successors of Muhammad(PBUH)

Brother if we start demanding these type if statements from the quran then there is no verse in the quran that mentions "offer obligatory prayers five times a day namely fajr, zuhr, asr, maghrib and isha and their respective raka's" or that simply tells us to offer obligatory prayers five times everyday....or is there? If there is then do let me know because I never came across it, you would actually be doing me a favour.

please tell me the point of translating Ali being a mosquito?

Are you asking me why or are implying that I did this while translating that page?

If you are asking me why , well I dont know , and I couldnt understand the translation either which is why I posted it here because it is not making any proper sense...

I hope we will continue sharing (or whatever you might deem this to be) regardless of your personal opinion regarding my sect .

And if you dont want to continue then im going to state that I learned alot throuh our discussion, and I woukd thank you honestly ...
Posted by lomana 3 years ago
lomana
Hahaha..... I had this feeling you would not believe I belong to a sunni family...do you study religion with the intention of seeking the true teachings that were revealed or just to learn rebuttals or the stuff that would help to prove your sect as being the only one true sect in islam?

I have already caught you lying, or using Taqiya,

When did this happen? What did I lie about ?

first you say that you are from a Sunni family and you think Shia's are Muslim,

Since when has it become mandatory for sunnis to deem shias kafir? Who made this mandatory that to be called a sunni or to belong to a sunni family one needs to believe shias are not muslims? I didnot know it is among the pillars of islam..

secondly you have told me you will provide evidence for Imamah, but wait you are just Muslim, innit?

So what has this got to do with me being shia or sunni or just a muslim? What are the boundaries within which one needs to remain while seeking knowledge???
The verse is this :

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."Surah baqara ayat 124

http://quran.com... .....this is the link I used...

Ibrahim was already a prophet ,wasnt he when he was been put to tests by his Lord? It was after ibraheem fulfilled all the commands of his Lord that he was granted imamah!! Whats the point in giving such a position to one who is already a prophet? Dont we know that a prophet is followed by its ummah (he is the leader of the ummah correct me if im wrong here) That is why imamat is regarded above prophethood. There might be other reasons i dont know about, accept this , reject this upto you , call me shia or kafir upto you, I hope you know about the hadith regarding calling someone a kafir.
Posted by Valtin 3 years ago
Valtin
I am tired of Shia's coming to me telling me that we are all Muslims, no you intelligent defect, people who do Shirk are not Muslim! as some Shia's do, I am used to see shia use Taqiyaa, also many Shia's come and say they are Muslim and refuse to say Shia or Sunni, be careful I've seen plenty of Shia and can see through taqiya .
Posted by Valtin 3 years ago
Valtin
First If someone tells you tawareeh is mandatory say no, and provide the hadith for it, give naseeha as the deen is naseeha(Advise).

Give me that verse that supports Imamah, that clearly says that Imams are going to be successors of Muhammad(PBUH) you are a Shia, you know why? I have already caught you lying, or using Taqiya, first you say that you are from a Sunni family and you think Shia's are Muslim, secondly you have told me you will provide evidence for Imamah, but wait you are just Muslim, innit? also please tell me the point of translating Ali being a mosquito?
Posted by lomana 3 years ago
lomana
In my previous post I pasted some of the content (translated into english) that you were referring to, it is not complete due to the 2000 characters restriction for comments...

Are you still in this discussion?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by NiqashMotawadi3 3 years ago
NiqashMotawadi3
ValtinMacMillerTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
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Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro set out the debate topic clearly and Con rushed in to debate other things each round which are irrelevant to the actual resolution. Even if we assume Con made a good case that the Qur'an is Mohammad's words, and he didn't, and that the Qur'an contains errors, which he could have done, Pro's resolution remains if the Twelver Shia doctrine is false according to the Qur'an, no matter what the Qur'an is, what errors it contains and who wrote it. Therefore, Pro gets the conduct point because Con derailed the debate. I would have expected Pro to stay on topic and ignore his opponent's red herrings, but since Pro didn't do that and because he didn't offer arguments defending his case, and because I didn't receive any arguments from the other side opposing the resolution, I'm leaving the arguments tied as I don't think the resolution was even touched upon throughout this debate by both participants.