The Instigator
rougeagent21
Con (against)
Losing
21 Points
The Contender
snelld7
Pro (for)
Winning
28 Points

The end always justifies the means

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Con Tied Pro
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/9/2009 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,229 times Debate No: 8197
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (24)
Votes (8)

 

rougeagent21

Con

As always, affirmative will go first. Good luck.
snelld7

Pro

As you said in the comment section, this shall be an introduction.
I'm David lol
I look forward to what you have to say next round
Debate Round No. 1
rougeagent21

Con

OK, go ahead and post. It is essentially two rounds now. Good luck.
snelld7

Pro

Hmm.. Well, where do I start?
Let's start with some definitions...

Justify/justification -show to be reasonable or provide adequate ground/explanation of some action or belief

Ends justifying the means/ends in justification of the means - The consequences of an action dictate the action itself.

In order to understand the prospective i'm about to come from, you must first understand taht for an action to be justified, it does not have to be right.

Justify basically means to provide a reason for

For example, lets say I hate smiling and people who smile. One day you walk up to me smiling, and I shoot you in the face. Now, although nothing about shooting you in the face is good, the reason I did it was because I hate smiles and people who smile. Although my reason was not GOOD it was still a reason none the less.

Justify doesn't imply that it has to be good. Just simply, that it provides reason for it. In seeing that you're doing something for the end to be there, it in turn must be the reason for it.

For example, If you shoot everyone in the face in order to kill the entire population of human beings. Shooting everyone in the face is done for the reason of wanting to kill everyone.

I await my opponents response ;-)
Debate Round No. 2
rougeagent21

Con

To justify-to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right
Just-guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness

These definitions are taken from the American heritage dictionary. I felt the need to define these terms for my opponent's lack of source and validity. Therefore, I have used a renowned dictionary to offer clarity to the debate.

"For example, lets say I hate smiling and people who smile. One day you walk up to me smiling, and I shoot you in the face. Now, although nothing about shooting you in the face is good, the reason I did it was because I hate smiles and people who smile. Although my reason was not GOOD it was still a reason none the less."

A reason, yes. Was it a just reason? Lets find out. Was it guided by...
Truth?
Reason?
Justice?
Fairness?

"Justify doesn't imply that it has to be good. Just simply, that it provides reason for it. In seeing that you're doing something for the end to be there, it in turn must be the reason for it."

Not true. To be justified under the resolution, it must be just. A JUST reason.

"For example, If you shoot everyone in the face in order to kill the entire population of human beings. Shooting everyone in the face is done for the reason of wanting to kill everyone."

Is that reason just?

Having cleared up the "justice" confusion, I leave my opponent with a final thought.
Do you want to achieve a good end? Are you justified in using evil means to get there? Always?
snelld7

Pro

I'd like to start with the definitions I provided and give there source.

Justify

A) Show to be reasonable or provide adequate ground for http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
B) To provide an acceptable explanation http://en.wiktionary.org...

An example of where I'm coming from, is criminal moives. We declare, no matter how outrageous they may be, that the motives of criminal are justified motives for the crimes they commit. Then, we punish them accordingly. Justified is simply, a reason for something. If something has sufficcient reason for something else, then it's justified.

You can provide different definitions if you'd like, however that does not prove my definitions to be wrong. Simply put, there are more than one answers to some questions.

If I have found these definitions under this word then they aren't false, are they? In this case, you will see, the ends always will justify the means. Whether it be a justification on a scale of good or bad is a whole different debate.

The "skewed heavily in the favor of Con's side" resolution is UPHELD!
Debate Round No. 3
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TheSkeptic 7 years ago
TheSkeptic
"*Sigh* it's only slanted if you want to argue half-committal utilitarianism..."

The problem with utilitarianism is the multiple life-boat scenarios, which is why there are variants of utilitarianism to address this.
Posted by rougeagent21 7 years ago
rougeagent21
Hmm, we'll see how that works out.
Posted by snelld7 7 years ago
snelld7
not "a just reason" but "just a reason"
Posted by rougeagent21 7 years ago
rougeagent21
Is it a just reason?
Posted by snelld7 7 years ago
snelld7
Is it a reason for killing everyone? Yes
I'm not upholding that it's a form of "Justice" which so commonly gets mixed up in the thought process
Posted by rougeagent21 7 years ago
rougeagent21
Exactly *rolls eyes*
Posted by Johnicle 7 years ago
Johnicle
ends: solve aids
means: kill all with aids

justified?!?!??!?
Posted by alto2osu 7 years ago
alto2osu
Well, you can't run a kritik if you are affirmative. Or rather, you really really really never should, considering the purpose of the affirmative in competitive debate...
Posted by burningpuppies101 7 years ago
burningpuppies101
Someone could just run a kritik on the resolution, or theory, or whatever it is that applies.
Posted by PoeJoe 7 years ago
PoeJoe
"Well at least I 'got off'"
8 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Vote Placed by Paris 6 years ago
Paris
rougeagent21snelld7Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Vote Placed by TFranklin62 7 years ago
TFranklin62
rougeagent21snelld7Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by rougeagent21 7 years ago
rougeagent21
rougeagent21snelld7Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 7 years ago
RoyLatham
rougeagent21snelld7Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:13 
Vote Placed by tastytaco 7 years ago
tastytaco
rougeagent21snelld7Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:14 
Vote Placed by Vi_Veri 7 years ago
Vi_Veri
rougeagent21snelld7Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Maikuru 7 years ago
Maikuru
rougeagent21snelld7Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by snelld7 7 years ago
snelld7
rougeagent21snelld7Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07