The Instigator
TheMarketLibertarian
Con (against)
The Contender
micellio
Pro (for)

The ethics of Male Genital Mutilation:

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Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: Select Winner
Started: 4/20/2017 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 606 times Debate No: 101995
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (27)
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TheMarketLibertarian

Con

I originally made this debate for another, but he declined and I don't want to leave this as it is. So, were going to talk about it. This debate has to do with ethics.
micellio

Pro

I accept your challenge and I will defend circumcision on the basis of it being cleaner, healthier and more pleasurable.
Debate Round No. 1
TheMarketLibertarian

Con

Which confirms my side of the argument. Why? Because all three of these are used to justify Female Genital Mutilation as well. Clenliness and hygeine for example:
"In some communities, the external female genitalia are considered dirty and ugly and are removed, ostensibly to promote hygiene and aesthetic appeal." {1}

Health is another excuse, and I would have my opponent know that the Muslims claim there are health benefits to Female Genital Mutilation as well. {2}

Claiming that circumcision increases pleasure is just absurd, the foreskin is highly errogenous and vital to male sexual pleasure, the British Journal of Urology states:
"The amount of tissue loss estimated in the present study is more than most parents envisage from pre-operative counselling. Circumcision also ablates junctional mucosa that appears to be an important component of the overall sensory mechanism of the human penis."

Now that we are done refuting my opponents claims, I will make my argument as to why the Circumcision of anyone under 18 without medical necessity should be banned:

I. BODILY AUTONOMY:
Parents do not have the right to cut healthy body parts off of their baby, Milton Friedman states:
"We do not believe in the right of the parents to do whatever they will with their children- to beat them, murder them, or sell them into slavery. Children are responsible individuals in embryo. They have ultimate rights of heir own and are not simply the play-things of their parents." {4}

II. PROPERTY RIGHTS:
Our Constitution, in the 5th Ammendment, states:
"No person shall be... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
Last I checked that babies foreskin is his property- and cutting it off violates his rights.

III. CONSENT:
A baby, or a child, is legally incapable of giving informed consent- therefore, circumcision is sexual assault.

{1}. http://www.unfpa.org...
{2}. https://islamqa.info...
{3}. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com...
{4}. "Free to Chose," by Milton and Rose Friedman, Chapter 1.
micellio

Pro

There is a huge difference between as you put it male (circumcision) and female (FGM) genital mutilation. To begin with, FGM can leave a woman infertile and cause great pain for the rest of her life. Circumcision, on the other hand, is done when the child is just days old the pain is brief and has no long-term negative effects. According to the World Health Organization, there are four types of FGMs
"Type I: Also known as clitoridectomy, this type consists of partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or its prepuce.
Type II: Also known as excision, the clitoris and labia minora are partially or totally removed, with or without excision of the labia majora.
Type III: The most severe form, it is also known as infibulation or pharaonic type. The procedure consists of narrowing the vaginal orifice with creation of a covering seal by cutting and appositioning the labia minora and/or labia majora, with or without removal of the clitoris. The appositioning of the wound edges consists of stitching or holding the cut areas together for a certain period of time (for example, girls" legs are bound together), to create the covering seal. A small opening is left for urine and menstrual blood to escape. An infibulation must be opened either through penetrative sexual intercourse or surgery.
Type IV: This type consists of all other procedures to the genitalia of women for non-medical purposes, such as pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterization."http://www.who.int...

The claim that FGM is healthy for Muslim women is another unfounded claim that is based in the most sexist culture in the world take a look at the laws in Muslim-majority countries to find proof of this.

Now let's take a look at circumcision as that is the topic of this debate. The uncircumcised penis takes a lot more work to clean and to keep clean. If the penis becomes unclean then there is a higher chance of contracting some STDs like HIV by 60% and is one of the leading strategies to help stop the spread of Aids in Africa. http://www.who.int...

Pleasure works in two ways. Nobody likes fast sex and the removal of the foreskin allows the possibility for both the man and the women to reach their climax. That is the secondary reason for sex is it not? It is selfish to only think of one's self in bed is selfish and if you do that you probably aren't the best partner.

As for your claim that "Circumcision of anyone under 18 without medical necessity should be banned" is contradicted in your first argument about Bodily Autonomy where you cited the brilliant economist Milton Friedman who said, "Children are responsible individuals in embryo." Taking this in it's most literal meaning as Milton Friedman was not a man to mince his words means that at any point the child has the capacity to choose to be circumcised but also the capacity to stop it from happening.

I am a Canadian so unfortunately, we do not have property rights written into our constitution; however, the fifth amendment doesn't guarantee them either. What the fifth protects you from is the government and it's police forces ie, The right to a grand jury, the right to due process, no double jeopardy and no self incrimiation. I will expand on this to unreasonable search and seizure. At no point, however, does this protect the individual from voluntary actions paid for by the child's parents to benefit the child .http://constitutionus.com...

Again the consent ruling gives the power to the parents when it comes to their children and medical options. The state has no business dictating what I do to my kid as far as I don't do any permanent negative damage. Circumcision while the foreskin will not grow back the damages have positve social and health benifits.
Debate Round No. 2
TheMarketLibertarian

Con

I. FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION:
My opponent states:
"FGM can leave a woman infertile and cause great pain for the rest of her life. Circumcision, on the other hand, is done when the child is just days old the pain is brief and has no long-term negative effects."

This is false- circumcision is the most excruciating things a person can go through and takes weeks to heal- all the while the infant is in constant and excruciating pain for no medical reason whatsoever. Furthermore, Male Genital Mutilation does have many long term psychological {1} as well as physiological effects.

II. HEALTH BENEFITS:
My opponent claims:
"The claim that FGM is healthy for Muslim women is another unfounded claim that is based in the most sexist culture in the world take a look at the laws in Muslim-majority countries to find proof of this."

Any part of your body could create issues for you later down the road- excising the clitoris, or any other part of the body, is therefore going to have 'health benefits' as a result of the lack of that part. The clitoris, like the foreskin, is subject to a number of health issues later down the road. {2} The removal of the clitoris guarantees that a woman will never suffer from any of these, and these may be called 'health benefits,' but they do not justify cutting parts of a person body off.

II. HYGEINE:
My opponent claims:
"The uncircumcised penis takes a lot more work to clean and to keep clean."

Unless you want to contract health issues later down the road, you need to clean your body. It is not logical to cut off parts of your body to avoid cleaning it- let alone cutting parts off of someone else's body because you do not trust them to clean it. If women do not clean their genitals out, they get a yeast infection- and infibulation would make it much easier to clean out a vagina- yet this is unacceptable. Furthermore, I already cited a source which showed that, among the reasons FGM is practiced, hygiene and ease of clean are among them. {3}

IV. STD'S AND HIV:
My opponent claims:
"If the penis becomes unclean then there is a higher chance of contracting some STD'S like HIV by 60% and is one of the leading strategies to help stop the spread of Aids in Africa."

All of these studies are fundamentally flawed. Let's start with the claim that circumcision reduces your chances of contracting an STD- the study which claimed this included Jews and Muslims, who do not engage in sexual activity before marriage ad are likely to be monogamous- which reduces their chances of contracting an STD to next to nothing- skewing the results.
The studies which claimed circumcision reduces your chances of contracting HIV are also erroneous because they sampled men and circumcised them to compare with those who remained intact over the course of the study- after a circumcision, the male is going to take a few months to recover, and during that time they are not going to engage in sexual activity for obvious reasons. For most of the study the circumcised men were bedridden, and thus incapable of contracting HIV- skewing the results.

V. SEXUAL PLEASURE:
My opponent claims:
"Pleasure works in two ways. Nobody likes fast sex and the removal of the foreskin allows the possibility for both the man and the women to reach their climax. That is the secondary reason for sex is it not? It is selfish to only think of one's self in bed is selfish and if you do that you probably aren't the best partner."

My opponent acknowledges that circumcision reduces sexual pleasure, but states that men must sacrifice significant sexual pleasure for the pleasure of their partners. This is not right at all- you cannot sexually injure your children for their future wives benefit- they deserve some basic human rights and are not mere dildos for the pleasure of women.

VI. MILTON FRIEDMAN:
My opponent states:
"As for your claim that "Circumcision of anyone under 18 without medical necessity should be banned" is contradicted in your first argument about Bodily Autonomy where you cited the brilliant economist Milton Friedman who said, "Children are responsible individuals in embryo." Taking this in it's most literal meaning as Milton Friedman was not a man to mince his words means that at any point the child has the capacity to choose to be circumcised but also the capacity to stop it from happening."

The keywords are 'in embryo,' parents have a responsibility to protect their children from harm, not a right to harm them themselves!

VII. PARENTAL RIGHTS:
My opponent states:
"At no point, however, does this protect the individual from voluntary actions paid for by the child's parents to benefit the child."

It is irrational to say that parents have the right to mutilate their children because they believe it is in their interests. This woman thought that she was acting in her children's interests by drowning them, {4} yet it was still murder and she was still tried for it.

Further, my opponent states:
"Again the consent ruling gives the power to the parents when it comes to their children and medical options. The state has no business dictating what I do to my kid as far as I don't do any permanent negative damage. Circumcision while the foreskin will not grow back the damages have positive social and health benefits."

Circumcision is a permanent damage- you are cutting parts off of their genitalia- that is harmful, and 'parental rights' do not protect child abuse or religious branding.

CONCLUSION:
Circumcision is nothing less than genital mutilation- it fits the definition of genital mutilation, and violates the right of bodily autonomy.

{1}. https://www.psychologytoday.com...
{2}. http://www.netdoctor.co.uk...
{3}. http://www.unfpa.org...
{4}. http://abcnews.go.com...
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 8 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
2 hours
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 8 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
1 day left
Posted by Tinkle888 9 months ago
Tinkle888
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

I look to research.
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 9 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
Ok.
Posted by micellio 9 months ago
micellio
Sorry about that I've been out of town and not really focused on your claims.
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 9 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
7 hours lwft
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 9 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
1 day left
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 9 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
No, it is you who is spreading lies, and thru did that study in the same way as those previous ones. Unless you are willing to challenge me to a debates I'm not dealing with you anymore.
Posted by Tinkle888 9 months ago
Tinkle888
This is a new study, I have never posted that link and you didn't even take the chance to read it. You are false and not looking for a debate, you just want to continue spreading lies.
Posted by TheMarketLibertarian 9 months ago
TheMarketLibertarian
I already went over why those studies are false, you refused a debate, so I'm not going to bother. If you want a debate change me to one.
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