The Instigator
Ancara
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
gerrandesquire
Con (against)
Winning
27 Points

The future does not exist and can therefore not be changed.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/14/2010 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,782 times Debate No: 12342
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (23)
Votes (7)

 

Ancara

Pro

People are so often paralysed by fearful thoughts of the future, they make plans for the future, constantly think about the future and what would happen if..., trying to change their or others' future when in fact the future does not exist. The future will never be more than just a thought in our minds and can only ever be experienced as a present moment.
Something that does not exist can not be changed. The future does not exist and can therefore not be changed.
gerrandesquire

Con

I thank my opponent for the debate.

And welcome her to her first debate.

My argument:

My opponent has claimed that the future does not exist. And that therefore, there is no need to worry about the future since it cannot be changed.

I would like to disagree. Stating that future does not exist is wrong. Scientists have actually predicted and made theories on how to travel into future.

Einstein, in his theories of relativity, postulated that the measured time interval between two events, would depend on how fast the observer would be moving. This hypothesis has been proved by various methods. Tests have shown that travel by plane, increases a second by a few nanoseconds. In the laboratory, subatomic particles called muons, have been propelled at light speed in atomic generators, and have shown that their rate of decay slows dramatically in respect to their higher velocities. The author cites that cosmic rays, from outer space, can reach us on earth, because the resulting speed of these rays reduces their rate of decay, allowing them to reach us and be seen by us. Dramatic time warps start occurring near the speed of light. Mr. Davies gives an example of this phenomenon, by stating that if twins are born at the same time, and one travels at the speed of light for a year before returning to earth, the traveling twin would be one year old, while the earthbound twin could have aged 10 earth years.

By traveling fast, namely the speed of light, time will slow down for us, while continuing at a normal pace elsewhere. Theoretically, calculations could be made to jump to a specific time and point in the future. It is also known that gravity slows down time as well. We know that time goes by faster in space than here on earth, because we are closer to the earth and the earth's gravitational pull. Subsequently, time in a submarine goes by even slower than those on land, for the same reason. Scientists have calculated that a neutron stars' gravitational pull is so strong, that it slows time down by thirty percent. Scientists feel that if an astronaut could zoom very close to a neutron star or black hole for that matter, he could leap far into the future.

If a person can leap from present to future, then it means that Future does exist, right? This argument is purely scientific and proven experimentally.

Source: astrophysics.suite101.com
Debate Round No. 1
Ancara

Pro

I thank my opponent for her argument in round one but am rather disappointed as it seems she had only copied and pasted parts of the article on astrophysics.suite101.com. Unless she is the author of that article (Cyrus Dehkan) I fail to see how a fair and enjoyable debate can develop.

My opponent's source made two points:
1. Time is relative, and time effect can be altered.
2. Scientists "feel" that it might be possible for an astronaut to leap far into the future.

The above points do not prove that the future exists at this very moment.

Point one merely proves that time can be altered and experienced differently depending on the speed you travel. In none of the experiments mentioned did an object actually travelled to the future. It demonstrated that it is possible for objects to have a different reference frame for time passed.

The second point seems to be based on a "feeling" or assumption. There is currently no scientific evidence which proves that a leap far into the future is possible. It is speculative theories at most.

My opponent then made the conclusion that if a person can leap from present to future, it means that the future does exist. Speculation again. Even if it was possible to make that leap into the future which future will you visit? Will there be multiple futures (based on free will)? If the possibility you visited never come to past because of some different action you or someone else took then you never visited the future but just experienced a possibility in the same way you experienced a dream.

She further claimed that the argument is purely scientific and proved experimentally. I would like to see the references to such scientifically experiments since I failed to locate any such experiments by reputable sources.

I thank my opponent in advance for her argument in round two.
gerrandesquire

Con

gerrandesquire forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Ancara

Pro

Since my opponent failed to prove that the future does indeed exist and since no such evidence could be found from a reputable source, I hold to the statement that the future does not exist and can therefore not be changed. The future is an empty concept that can at most be filled but not changed. Only if man can be free from futile attempts to change his destiny will he be free to shape the destiny he wants.

I thank my opponent for her attempt to this debate.
gerrandesquire

Con

"I can't deny the existence of a future..... my idea about what and how it would pan out may not be correct, but that doesn't mean there is NO future. More importantly, even my own imperfect idea of the future, whatever it may be, clearly exists since it does impact and shape my present thoughts and actions."- rachael stuarz

This is what was my point. Future is always there, it may be imperfect. But it is always there. And it affects our present.

People are so often paralysed by fearful thoughts of the future, they make plans for the future, constantly think about the future and what would happen if..., trying to change their or others' future when in fact the future does not exist.'

Well, that is the essence of life. We have choices, and we have a mind as to how to live our life. We think about our future because we don't know what our future is. It is something that is in our control and that is why it's so terrifying. But it does exist and that t\is what propels us to do better because future is something we can control. It is strong enough to affect our present, and thus, it exists.

Thanks for the debate

PS: sorry for the forfeit in the previous round, my server crashed.
Debate Round No. 3
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ogan 7 years ago
Ogan
If I could answer you both jupiter and gerrandesquire: The fragmented Mirror is a Mind scattered into the coils of the turbulent lower material nature and intellect during incarnation - the single Light of the Individual Mind becomes a thousand fold tiny flickering lights within the ever active waters of the material mind.
The re-membered or unfragmented Mirror is able not only to reveal the Image of the true Immortal Observer, but also to receive Visions of the Truth from on High, and become filled with Inspiration.

"The wise man becometh a Lyre which is all a'quiver and resoundeth beneath the hand of God." (Iamblichus)
Posted by gerrandesquire 7 years ago
gerrandesquire
@ jupiter sorry i couldn't understand. what does the mirror signify? A person can truly see his reflection if he can gather his conscience together?
Posted by jupiter 7 years ago
jupiter
some people say the mirror has been shattered in thousands of pieces and only when the person finds all the pieces, will thay truely see themselves in the reflection for the first time.
Posted by Ogan 7 years ago
Ogan
I don't know if I am a Poet, but I suppose that's for the clear minded to judge. Someone once said: "Perhaps a great Poet was one of those handed a Gift from the hand of the Goddess Athena herself, consisting of a Magic Mirror, within which, could be seen the wondrous Reflections of the Divine or Supreme Good; and being overwhelmed by that utter Beauty and Perfection, began to Sing in ecstasy the Songs of Love and Freedom!"

My favourite Poet is Matthew Sutherland – Keys for Escaping Prisoners. His very first quatrain from (chapter 1. Songs Across the Desert) goes as follows:

No.1.
To see with Single Eye the moving Drama,
To ride the magic Horse of Passion,
To penetrate the Net which binds us tight,
Through the Door of Liberation flashing!

No.97:
Never lose Faith, though the Mind may Sleep,
Never lose Hope, though the eyes may weep,
Stand by your Post, be it ever so long,
Be Good, be Brave, be Loving and Strong.

No.142:
Arise! Bright Bird on Wings of Flame,
And Wake this sleepy world with Song Divine,
For See! The Night has stripped Her jewelled dress,
And with His rosy Light the Day doth shine!

(spirituality linked with practicality?)

The affairs of the everyday world afford us the golden opportunity of learning many things that can be neither spoken nor written, and become a kind of Medicine to all we meet upon the Highway. This spreads Hope and Trust where there was depression and doubt. A little bit of sunshine in the darkness – how simple.
As to my ‘Religion' I suspect you already know that, but if you are asking which denomination I would say "Only the Best from All of them" and the Ancient Mystery Religions.

I am happy if I what I pass to you is of some use along the Way.
Posted by gerrandesquire 7 years ago
gerrandesquire
on an unrelated note, Wow.

Are you a poet by any chance?
"...They are like seeds frozen beneath the ground in the Winter, waiting to break into the World and be called into the Present by the Fire of Spring. Will they be roses or poisonous weeds? We all have Freewill to choose..."
Seemed to me as if I was reading Robert Frost.(loved the lines)

Thanks a lot. You've got an interesting point of view. spirituality linked with practicality?
PS: religion: not saying?
Posted by Ogan 7 years ago
Ogan
Below was a major error. Many apologies, it was tiredness.

The statement: If one thinks "I will help this old lady because if I do a lot of good I will eventually attain Freedom." Rather than, "I feel for that old lady and will help her, even if it's awkward for me, because I really care for her welfare and happiness." (Then we are on the Right Path.) "Love is the Path that leads to Wisdom."

Should read at the end: Then we are on the Wrong Path. "Love is the Path that leads to Wisdom." We should do it because we Love. "Love loves because it must!"
Posted by Ogan 7 years ago
Ogan
2. And if we complete the level of good one should do in a lifetime, we become our own creative 'Gods', and are salvaged from our human life.

Ogan: Yes, well said, although we are already 'unconscious' creative gods without realising it. But there is no set amount or level of good we are expected to do in one life - its We who decide what that will be for ourselves. A very important point: If we do good only for the reward - whatever that be - rather than because we love to be and do good, then we fail again. If one thinks "I will help this old lady because if I do a lot of good I will eventually attain Freedom." Rather than, "I feel for that old lady and will help her, even if it's awkward for me, because I really care for her welfare and happiness." Then we are on the Right Path. "Love is the Path that leads to Wisdom."

About the second point, etc.,

Ogan: Exactly. By making a positive difference where you happen to find yourself is where you are needed, and if you manage to add peaceful meditation, Spiritual study and Prayer, exercising the intellect, love of Beauty and Pure Arts, but above all else Self-Improvement, then you won't miss the Light Signs of which I cannot speak. Also, a sense of humour and general happiness and optimism is invaluable.
I have heard a few quotes from the Gita, but my main sources are from all the ancient teachings around the world as well as from Within myself. Because of this, where would I begin with ‘links'? But you have requested, so I will have a good think and try. It would be easier if you said "Are there any links to this particular subject which I need to deal with and gain an understanding of it".
I hope this has been of some small help and assistance.

Kingfisher: "Love is the gentlest flower that ever bloomed in Eden,
But is ever the greatest Warrior on the battlefield."
Posted by Ogan 7 years ago
Ogan
gerrandesquire:

so basically, (please tell me if I am wrong)

1. If we do wrong deeds in our past, we attract wrong behaviour in our future. And vice versa. i.e. our future actions are determined by our past actions.

Ogan: Yes, that's one way of putting it. Although I would change the first part to: "If we do wrong deeds in our Present..." The results of all our deeds are hidden from us in the Past. They are like seeds frozen beneath the ground in the Winter, waiting to break into the World and be called into the Present by the Fire of Spring. Will they be roses or poisonous weeds? We all have Freewill to choose. Our inner motives and deeds are the inner and outer effects of our own state of mind and being, and the same is true regarding the reaction to the inner motives and deeds of others - all of these striking us in the Present.

(next answer in following comment)
Posted by gerrandesquire 7 years ago
gerrandesquire
so basically, (please tell me if i am wrong)

1.If we do wrong deeds in our past, we attract wrong behavior in our future. And vice versa. i.e our future actions are determined by our past actions.

2.And if we complete the level of good one should do in a lifetime, we become our own creative 'Gods', and are are salvaged from our human life.

i agree with the first point, and it doesn't actually need any proof. its self evident.

About the second point, just to clarify, doing good deeds DURING our lifetime. Right? As in, if i'm working as an IAS, during that profession, if i'm doing good deeds, that's counted. Not that I leave my family and go to a forest and start helping helpless people and animals. I'm trying to differentiate this philosophy from spiritual propogandas and trying to ascertain the possibility of this phenomenon. This does seem something akin to Geeta teachings. Is that where you got it from? Or i'd be obiliged if you can give me some links...
Posted by Ogan 7 years ago
Ogan
Don't know what you think of this, but the ancient philosophers taught - to be as simple as possible - that Destiny is self-engendered by Freewill for its own instruction. They stated it was impossible to achieve much in a single life - each life being different and dealing with the fruits of the Past - therefore regular reincarnation was necessary for an individual to evolve. Whenever they wished to explain something they would do so symbolically in a kind of picture language not understood now by most. An example: They said there were 3 'gods' in charge of Destiny: Karma Nemesis or Necessity - who ruled the Past, 'Jupiter' or Providence - who ruled the Present, and a Mystery God held secret in the sanctuary who ruled the Future.
Jupiter was said to have 2 pots, one white and one black, which were filled from the receptacle of Necessity with our good and bad deeds (thoughts, words and deeds) and poured upon us in the Present by 'Jupiter' as certain mysterious lessons.
They taught that, unbeknown to us, that we are creative gods in the making, and that ultimately what we attune our minds too is what we draw toward us for our instruction - however pleasant or painful - so the Future is in our own hands.
They also taught to the 'multitude' that we can adjust our Future by only attuning with the Good, whilst the Priesthood, by "living a rough life were polished to Goodness", thus avoiding evils "which otherwise await us in a future period of time". In other words Past, Present and Future form a Wheel from which we eventually escape when we have perfected ourselves - and that's what this Wheel was created for in the first place, so that we could evolve spiritually.
I know this cannot be proved to the reasoning faculties which are part of that Wheel, but those who seek shall find. However, we are moulding our future present every day, and it behoves us to good, kind, loving and gradually discover that we are far more than we know.
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