The history of the gay movement, sexual misconduct, and pedophilia are inseparable.
Debate Rounds (3)
It's literally impossible to teach about the history of the gay movement without mentioning pedophiles and sexual predators because pedophiles and sexual predators have been instrumental in driving the gay movement
I look forward to a challenging and informative debate.
This is a red herring fallacy and it is irrelevant to my claim. Your claim does not change the fact that the gay movement has been profoundly driven by many pedophiles and sexual predators.
" Sexual misconduct is a societal norm".
This is a subjective claim. Pedophilia and sexual misconduct are more prevalent among the drivers of the gay movement then any other movement with the exception of the pedophile movement.
"In every culture it is different and yes, society said homosexuality was misconduct but that does not mean it morally was"
This is a straw man fallacy. I never said homosexuality is sexual misconduct. I said the gay movement, pedophilia and sexual misconduct are inseparable because of the prevalence of pedophiles and sexual predators who are significantly instrumental throughout the history of the gay movement
"That same society also said it was misconduct for blacks and whites to marry, a concept most of us have trouble seeing as misconduct, let alone immoral"
This is a faulty analogy and a tu Quoque fallacy. It also has nothing to do with pedophilia and sexual misconduct
You yourself seemed to assign what you considered to be misconduct, in your very challenge. What is misconduct? An illegal act? Something you find offensive personally? It is ambiguous, to say the least. If you would like to provide what you are qualifying as misconduct, perhaps it would help.
Most research such as the study by Groth and Birnbaum (1978) indicate a much higher rate of sexual molestation by heterosexual men and to a lesser extent, bi-sexual men. Their study found no homosexual child molesters. The Dr Carole Jenny study found only 1% of child abuse victims were abused by a homosexual. The
Freund study had similar results.
Any linkage of the gay movement to pedophilia comes from those who seek to deny homosexuals basic civil rights based upon their orientation or those too ignorant of the science of sexuality to know linking the two is, to put it politely, spurious, at best.
As to your comment; "It is literally impossible to teach about the history of the gay movement without mentioning pedophiles and sexual predators because pedophiles and sexual predators have been instrumental in driving the gay movement", I can attest this is categorically untrue from my own personal experience tutoring Sociology in graduate school. I suggest most people would no reason to link them at all.
In addition, I must ask, upon what statistics and facts do you base this assertion? I am aware of some studies that try to link pedophilia and the gay rights movement but also am aware many have been thoroughly refuted. Certainly, if I am mistaken, I look forward to you presenting research by reputable scholars to correct me. You have provided no such evidence.
"Sexual conduct is a societal norm" is not a subjective claim"
First of all, you didn't day "sexual conduct". You said "sexual MISconduct"
My claim is, 'sexual misconduct as a social norm' is normal in some places but abnormal in other places. Therefore, your claim is subjective
"What is sexual misconduct"
Here's an example of sexual misconduct.
The gay hero 'Harvey Milk', sexually seduced run away teenage boys with substance abuse problems. He even convinced and assisted a boy to run away. He use their substance abuse problem as a weakness to sexually seduce them.
"Most research such as the study by Groth and Birnbaum (1978) indicate a much higher rate of sexual molestation by heterosexual men and to a lesser extent, bi-sexual men. Their study found no homosexual child molesters. The Dr Carole Jenny study found only 1% of child abuse victims were abused by a homosexual. The"
This is a red herring fallacy.
My claim is, the history of the gay movement, pedophilia and sexual misconduct are inseparable. Your claim does not change the fact that pedophiles and sexual predators were prevalent in driving the gay movement throughout the history of the gay movement
Here is proof that pedophiles and sexual predators were very significant and prevalent in driving the gay movement.
Terrence Bean, A gay co-founder of the most powerful gay rights group Human Rights Campaign (HRC) has been arrested for CHILD RAPE. He convinced President Obama to endorse gay marriage
David Thorstad, A top gay activist is the president of Newyork's gay activist alliance and a founder of a pedophile group, 'Nambla', (North American Man/Boy Love Association.
Harry Hay is the founder of the first modern gay organization. (Mattachine Soceity). He's known as the father of gay rights. Harry Hay was also a devoted supporter of a pedophile organization (Nambla). The pedophile group put Harry's picture on the cover of their magazine and honors him as an icon
James Rennie, chief executive of a publicly-funded gay rights group, was one of the men exposed yesterday as members of Scotland's biggest PEDOPHILE RING. He was convicted of raping a 3 month old infant.
Larry Brinkin, a prominent gay rights activist who worked for the human rights commission for forty years was charged with child pornography. He had porn pictures of toddlers as young as one years old
Harvey Milk, a top leading gay activist was the first openly gay politician and a teen sexual predator who targeted male teens as young as 15 with substance abuse problems. The lgbt community honors him as a gay hero and icon.
Frank Lombart, a prominent gay activist, a Duke university professor and an openly gay bishop was charged with sexually molesting his own adopted 5 year old son and selling him for Sodomy and rape.
The International lesbian and gay association (ILGA) was associated with a pedophile group until the U.N suspended it's membership. The problem is, they had to be punished in order to discontinue it's association with pedophile groups. They didn't do it on their own
Gay rights groups in Germany formed an alliance with pedophiles
A gay hollywood film director 'Brian Singer' has been accused of sexually abusing a minor and organizing pedophile parties. He is openly gay.
Neil Strachan, 41, the former secretary of a Celtic boys club and campaigner on homosexual issues, was charged with attempting to molest an 18-month-old boy, and sexually assaulting a six-year-old.
Gay Air Force Lt. Joshua Seefried, a prominent advocate for the rights of gays in the military, has been charged with sexual assault
Nigel Evans, Gay British Politician Facing Sex Assault Charges From Seven Men
Russel Stalk, The president of a gay rights organization (Stonewall Union) who recently received federal and local grants to fight anti-gay violence was charged with RAPE of a gay date.
Demaio, a gay politician and GOP hopeful accused of sexual harassment and sexual misconduct
Gay activist, Walter Lee Williams pleads guilty to sexually assaulting boys.
John Murphy, journalist for the gay times, dj at a gay bar and receptionist at a gay sauna was also a part of a major pedophile ring.
Ok, first of all, the definition of sexual conduct varies from society to society, as does sexual misconduct because society attempts to determine what is appropriate and not appropriate. Often, not all members of a society agree and work to change life. In the issue of gay rights, what may have been misconduct in 1850 is not misconduct in 2015. That was and is my point. Any group that sees change, be they women, men, children, blacks, Jews etc may have been involved in what was legal misconduct before the injustice was overturned. If you want to call my arguments strawman arguments, be my guest.
Now, to your examples
Terry Bean....judge dismissed the charges. Accusations alone are not guilt. A district attorney saying something, is not guilt.
David Thorsdadt is a pedophila activist. He was at one time involved in gay rights but now spends his times on pedophilia activism. He used the gay rights movement to work into his true activism which is pedophilia. Again, he states he has pedophilia and would like it legalized. He does not spend time fighting for homosexual rights, that I am aware of. I am also not aware of any crime he had committed against children. He has pedophilia but is not a pedophile. Those are two different things.
Harry Hay was not the founder of the first gay group, he was one of the founders of the second. Hay was an atheistic, gay, communist pedophile by his own admission. He also founded the society of radical fairies and wore skirts a lot. Hay was a person who thrived on shock value. He was never accused of child molestation, let alone convicted of it. His support of NAMBLA is as inconsequential to his homosexuality as is his atheism or his communism.
Larry Brinkin has been sentenced on the charge of possessing child pornography. He is to undergo psychological counseling as part of his plea deal. It is my understanding most people in the community he worked in, both gay and straight, were horrified and actually thought he should have received harsher punishment. He has pedophilia. The gender of the subjects in the pornography on his computer were not disclosed by the DA. Regardless, however, his sexual orientation and psychopathology are unrelated.
James Rennie was the chief executive of a Scottish LGBT organization and was found guilty of numerous counts of indecent acts with a child. He is disgusting. I believe his resignation was demanded immediately by others on the board who also thought it was disgusting. Yes, here is a sick man. He obviously had a psychopathology that was one of predation. As psychologists will tell you, this is a psychopathology anyone can have. John Murphy and Neil Strachan, caught up in this same ring would have been the same way. In other words, it was no doubt not their sexuality that united the members of this pedophile ring but their psychopathology. The same way groups of men who engage in repeated gang rapes of women, are not linked by their heterosexuality but by their violence and psychopathology.
Harvey Milk was never arrested for or charged with child molestation or pedophilia. Yes, there are scurrilous rumors but that is not surprising from the first openly gay politician in the USA. Anita Bryant ran a smear campaign against all gays because of Milk. Again, you have made a an accusation against him not based on fact but rumors. Are we to judge all trail blazers based on rumor and innuendo? If so, we will run into trouble as far back as the founding fathers.
Frank Lombard from Duke University was arrested and convicted of child molestation but other than the right wing fundamentalist or anti-gay websites you offer, I can find no source that indicates Lombard identified as gay. Again though, if he was, he is one man. His psychopathology of pedophilia would be different than his sexual orientation and like Rennie, totally separate. No one in the gay community supports Lombard. His actions are seen as despicable to the few I asked about it.
All of the charges against Brian Singer have been dismissed. It matters not that he has been accused. The charges have been dismissed. Once again, are we to judge some who is gay, just because someone made accusations? Singer is innocent until proven guilty. Even though he is gay, he still has that right.
Air Force Lt. Joshua Seefried is accused of forcible sodomy. However, the prosecution case fell apart when the lead witness for the prosecution, Coast Guard Lt. Commander John Fiorentine, said the complainant in the case, was a willing participant. The Air Force itself is questioning the validity of the case.
Nigel Evans was accused and acquitted of all charges. To put him on your list was questionable. Is everyone guilty, even though deemed not guilty by a court of law? How would the allegation and acquittal by someone who is simply gay, prove the point of your argument?
The link you provided regarding Russell Stalk is a "404 Not Found" link. I could find some information on someone by that name, with Stonewall United but it dated back to 1991. I am not gay and therefore not in the gay community so perhaps he is known to some gays but when I asked two American gays if they knew of him, they did not.
Carl DeMaio was accused of sexual misconduct only after a theft occurred at his headquarters. The accuser, Todd Boswich, said he was getting threatening emails from DeMaio. He told the police and took the emails to the rival campaign. Boswich has just pled guilty to lying to the FBI and obstructing justice. DeMaio has not been charged or convicted. He was accused by an apparent sympathizer with the Peters campaign. Politics is an ugly business. Once again, accusations do not mean guilt.
Walter Lee Williams was a HUMAN rights activist, not a GAY rights activist. He actively campaigned for many human rights, including but certainly not limited to, homosexuality. He pioneered homosexual anthropological studies. He was also a predator. This is another case of the sexuality of the person being detached from his psychopathology. Williams had sex with both male and female children.
The ILGA made this statement :"ILGA did have an affiliation with NAMBLA at one time, just as canceling the membership of NAMBLA and other pedophile organizations, ILGA would not be denying anyone's right of self-expression but exercising its own. It is time to tell NAMBLA and its kin to express their views elsewhere, without the benefit of ILGA's assistance or its name". The German group also sent NAMBLA packing. The association seems odd but in context, makes sense. Members of the gay community did not want to judge or condemn the acts of others because they themselves were being condemned by society. The gay community was willing to take support anywhere they could get it. As time went by and society became more accepting of homosexuality, the gay movement sought to make it known they were simply people with different sexual orientations than most of society, they distanced themselves from NAMBLA. Certainly most in the gay community do not molest children. The idea they are linked is nonsense.
Just like in the heterosexual community there are people with the psychopathology of pedophilia and predation. However, examples of this do not intrinsically link the two. The few legitimate examples you provided were gay men with pedophilia. That is not to say their crimes were caused by their homosexuality. In most cases, just like in cases of heterosexuals, their sexual crimes are actually not related to their sexual orientation.
As with any subject, taking a few parts, dissecting them and pulling out a few examples does nothing more than showed you came up with a few examples. Unbiased research has indicated no link between homosexuality and pedophilia.
I am sure you will discount my response but the fact of the matter is that anyone with an agenda to discredit any group of people can pull out random examples and thus, using some convoluted logic, pronounce the entire group guilty based upon the few examples they provided. However, that is not how science nor common sense actually work. It is though, what you have done here.
Your few examples do not support such a radical statement as "The history of the gay movement, sexual misconduct, and pedophilia are inseparable".
No votes have been placed for this debate.
You are not eligible to vote on this debate
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.