The Instigator
JOhn_D.5ilver
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points
The Contender
yuiru
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The individual does not have free will, everything is pre-determined.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
JOhn_D.5ilver
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/27/2013 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 583 times Debate No: 31775
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

JOhn_D.5ilver

Pro

I thank my future opponent for accepting and already looking forward to your responses. I will start by presenting a few facts and afterwards I will implement them. If you do not state them as facts for not knowing whether it's true or not you did not have the right qualification to enter this debate.

Facts:

1.] The subconscious stores all the information

2.] Your emotions are linked with this information giving it personal meaning

3.] At birth you know nothing or very little

4.] Every individual is different

5.] The environment is a huge factor in designing the kind of person you are going to become

6.] Appearances can be deceiving

Quick Example:

Put two very young individuals into the same environment and they will grow up differently.

Putting all of this previous mentioned to together and you will get the person you are now. The way your life will come to stand is defined by the paths you are going to take. All influenced by the type of person you are in which the information stored in the subconscious is not by your choice put, but by the circumstances that formed you and by it given direction in your life.

Further explanation:

With the information you have at that moment the situation you will enter is going to put you in what I call the path of enforced direction. How does this work and how do you respond to it? The fact is that the situation you are in is not really forcing you to anything, but it is giving you the enforced idea that you should react to it.

(2) Quick example:

A car is heading your way. Enforcing you to react to it.

Now from it the information this situation had provided it goes into your subconsciousness where it together with the information you possess at that moment will force you into the path you are going to follow. You do not choose from the possibilities (using the quick example 2) to go either to the left, right or do nothing, and so on the possibilities grow depending on the situation and the information you possess. Now you will understand that certain individual have the capability to think faster or slower which will affect in what path they will fall. The individual by it either has more or less options. Stated for the results people witness making it look like people choose because they have options. The options are presented in the field within your subconscious and the one that fit best be ruled as victorious and be the one you follow.

Primary example:

See it as game design character where the individual has certain levels. The characteristics are displayed and such things as tolerance, patience, anger and everything else is based on these levels. Say your anger level is low and in a situation this area is tested. The possibilities are presented, but at that moment you will already know what will happen. The lowness of that level will force the direction and the reaction will be a personal manifestation, but nevertheless will it be anger based.

Simplistically described the idea of what I mean. Of course other information will come into play that in a certain type of situation will involve other fields to react as well. For instance, if a female is pushing his buttons the enforced idea of not hitting her because that is the information he possesses will come into play. For you see he is raised with the idea that hitting females is wrong. Now obviously in another situation he might break that rule, but that is because she (representing the external force) is no longer within his level to maintain it and thus breaking that rule automatically.

By now I will have laid down the principal of every route you take depends on the information you possess that is not chosen by you because you cannot choose it is done for you. You simply follow whatever path is formed.

yuiru

Con

Individual has free will
Everything is not determine beforehand

Free will as I understand it, is property of acting at ones own discretion, not out of necessity, or what has already been destined.
This goes along with predetermination.

Within psychology the subconcious is the area of an individuals consciousness that is not focally active.
In your example of enforced ideas, the individual is conciously aware that a female is pushing his buttons and his moral code tells him not to hit her, but his anger instinct would ultimately tell him to hit her. In this situation I think this shows freewill because the individual can choose to either follow moral information he has found or his anger.

Predetermination:

The problem I have with predetermination is that it requires that some sort of force that doesn't seem to be demonstrated has determined all actions that all time has been set out and no other routes are possible.
Debate Round No. 1
JOhn_D.5ilver

Pro


Everything in life can be measured. Whereas the discovery in science prove cause and effect is not random, but calculated. For the reason I can't hit through walls is because my force isn't strong enough to overcome that wall. Within this physical realm is where also the idea is created for the psychological realm. Beyond that the same principal arrives that if the force is not strong enough you can't breakthrough it. Back to the shared example stated by me is that the wall representing anger and the punch is reason (for example). In the end it comes down to which is stronger.


In terms of force in the psychological realm this depends on the individual. The information he gathered throughout his entire life has been given measure in force. Such things as habits, will power, emotions and the strength it holds are created by external means. For example, his DNA, how/where he has been raised.


Within the subconscious this battle is fought where the situation is providing the information and the path that's the strongest/fittest will be the one the individual follows. There is no choice just the path of enforced direction.


This idea is strongly fought because in everyday life it feels so real the concept of free will. Accepting this will not affect your life in a negative way, at least not with me. It can only give you a wider understanding in why people to the things they do without realising it.


Don't misinterpret that you can't change yourself because everything is pre-determined. The change is also a force and if it's strong enough you can break though and change yourself.


yuiru

Con

"In terms of force in the psychological realm this depends on the individual. The information he gathered throughout his entire life has been given measure in force. Such things as habits, will power, emotions and the strength it holds are created by external means. For example, his DNA, how/where he has been raised."

In your scenerio, that may be the case that the individual is only acting on what is stronger. However, I would call things like that an extreme case. When one is for example in no extreme situations, such as watching TV or outside playing, things are up to there will to do anything. It is completely up to whatever they want to do, like bounce a ball or throw it somewhere. Also I would say that would you are describing about nuture and nature in psychology is mostly influence on ones own freewill as opposed to determining factors.

"This idea is strongly fought because in everyday life it feels so real the concept of free will. Accepting this will not affect your life in a negative way, at least not with me. It can only give you a wider understanding in why people to the things they do without realising it."

Even though I agree here for the most part, just because accepting it has no negative effects or even has positive. I should have no baring on whether it is correct or not. Atomic bombs have a huge negative effect, but that doesn't mean the science is wrong.
Debate Round No. 2
JOhn_D.5ilver

Pro


I will start by saying that in the everyday routine or the non-extreme cases by your definition are still an act of enforcement. Being able to do certain things like watching television is possible because it exists. Were it not then you wouldn't be able to enter that path of watching TV. So by that there are limited possibilities and in that sense you are already being forced to go certain routes. Now wouldn't it exist it would have been replaced with another activity, but also one from the possibilities present.


Now comes the question which one do you pick? Do you think that it is done at random or is it also the same as the extreme cases.


You go that certain path of watching television because it is a habit. Also, a force as I stated for the entering of the path of enforced direction. It's called a patron that is created over time and the trigger is for example boredom and the response is watching television (depending on the whereabouts of your location). For example, you are at home and you are the type of person that is lazy and by that is confounded to that space. Your options have just become even more limited to television or laptop. There could be more, but let's keep it at those two options. At that moment which one would you pick? You know that at two o'clock in the afternoon certain Tv channels aren't fun to watch, so you go and fill your time on the laptop. As you see that you do not do things at random, but according to at that moment the information you possess and how you are structure as a person to think. Other people might first go and watch television to find out that there is nothing fun to watch and then go on their laptop. So even in the non extreme cases the information you possess is enforcing you.


I state my apology it is not what I meant. I stated it to give reason to the enforcement you might feel and disbelieve. It is the idea that is feels so real that you entered the path of enforced direction to debate this topic.


yuiru

Con

yuiru forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
JOhn_D.5ilver

Pro

Am I that good that I have them forfeit so easily? I keep drawing the unlucky straw, for I wish to debate someone with intelligence or at the very least present until the very end.
yuiru

Con


I deeply apologize for my forfeiture in round 3, and in hindsight I should have not accepted this debate seeing as the period of time to post arguments is not long enough to fit in my schedule.

I'm also sorry I'm apparently a unlucky straw lacking in intelligence.

I probably don't have a chance with the forfeit, so I guess I lost the debate. I still feel it was an interesting debate and thank pro nonetheless.
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Misterscruffles 3 years ago
Misterscruffles
You were doing so good there yuiru. Shame you quit, you could have possibly won.
Posted by yuiru 3 years ago
yuiru
Can I accept?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Misterscruffles 3 years ago
Misterscruffles
JOhn_D.5ilveryuiruTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: FF