The Instigator
Cooperman88
Pro (for)
Losing
15 Points
The Contender
ANSmith
Con (against)
Winning
20 Points

The logical conclusion of the Bible's free will is that man can live sinlessly.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/27/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,897 times Debate No: 4811
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (18)
Votes (9)

 

Cooperman88

Pro

I would like to ask first that my opponent would be a Christian who believes in free will. My reason for arguing isn't necessarily because I believe I'm right. But I am a Christian who believes in free will and I believe that there may be something to this argument. So let us begin.

If there is in fact free will then it logically follows that man can live sinlessly. I'm not saying that man can be sinless, but they can make the choice to live without sin. In the book of Matthew, Christ says "Be perfect therefore as your heavenly Father is perfect." Why would Christ give a commandment that is impossible to follow. I believe that He doesn't. But that it can in fact be followed. My reasoning behind this is as follows.

1. Man has ultimate free will...or the ability to choose.
2. When being tempted, we choose to sin or not to sin.
3. The Bible says that when we are tempted, we will not be tempted beyond what we can resist.
4. Therefore it is possible to live without sin.
ANSmith

Con

First of all I would like to thank my opponent for posting this debate, this looks rather interesting. I hope that I can certainly shed some light on this subject.

Interesting theory here, to imagine that free will equals no sin is very in depth; however, I have to disagree with you on one key point you made, and that is that man can live sinlessly. As Christians, no matter our denomination, we are taught that sin is anything not pleasing to the our Heavenly Father. That being said, we are all children of God and were sent here to go through trials and temptations so we can one day return to him and inherit the Kingdom of God. You are correct in stating that the Bible states that the Lord tempts us with nothing we cannot resist, nor does he give us anything we cannot handle; however, with those temptations there is a right choice and a wrong choice. This is called agency. Nothing God tempts us with is overwhelming, however this does not mean that there is not a wrong choice.

We as Christians know what is acceptable and worthy acts in the eyes of Heavenly Father, when we disobey those commandments he has given us this is a sin. When we disobey those sins deliberately and repeatedly, this is unacceptable and will be placed upon you on judgment day.

Say for example, you are tempted physically. And your agency that Heavenly Father has blessed you with has given you the right to choose whether to give in to that temptation or not. Now, Heavenly Father gives us NOTHING that we can't handle, so the choice should not be hard for us to make...considering we know right from wrong. However, you decide to give into the temptation even though you know that it is not acceptable to God. This is a sin, because you deliberately disobeyed. It would be the same as you telling your child not to eat the cookies until after dinner, now, that child has the right to choose whether to eat the cookie or not. So he eats one, but because he disobeyed you, he doesn't get any until tomorrow. Why? Because he disobeyed you. The same applies to Heavenly Father and the commandments that he gives us. Free will simply means the right to choose, because what would our purpose be on this earth if we were all perfect and had no free will? There wouldn't be a purpose because we would already be perfect.
Debate Round No. 1
Cooperman88

Pro

Thank you very much for this wonderful debate. First, I would like to say that I agree with a lot of what you said. But there are a couple things that I do have to say.

Firstly, what you are saying about people sinning is correct. But that's not really what I'm saying. I understand that people do sin, and I understand why people sin. But I'm proposing that it is in fact possible to live perfectly. James 1:4 says that we will be made perfect through our endurance. The verse I gave earlier said that Jesus told us to be perfect. If you look to my four points earlier, then you will see that it logically concludes that someone can live perfectly. You don't argue any of that.
ANSmith

Con

you proposed:

1. Man has ultimate free will...or the ability to choose.
2. When being tempted, we choose to sin or not to sin.
3. The Bible says that when we are tempted, we will not be tempted beyond what we can resist.
4. Therefore it is possible to live without sin.

The Bible states that the only perfect person to walk this earth is Christ. While free will does give us the choice to do right or wrong, we as humans are not perfect. We as humans mess up everyday. It could be as simple as choosing to argue with someone or get upset when we don't get what we want when we are children. And as children, we are too young to think before we speak most times. As an adult, the possibility of living perfectly is a little more possible because we understand right from wrong. However... getting angry, not so modest clothing, working on Sunday, even the occasional white lie such as: If someone asks you what the weather is like, and it's partially cloudy outside. But instead you say, "it's going to rain." That isn't exactly the truth. As humans, small things like that we really don't think about. The bigger things, such as adultery, murder, etc. we are more prone to think before we act. But as children, and even as adults we don't think about EVERYTHING we do.

The only perfect person to live on this earth was Jesus himself. Our agency, the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves, is essential to Christ's plan of salvation for us. Without it, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior. It simply is not possible for us to live perfectly...why? Because if there was a possibility of us living perfectly, then Christ would have had no reason to die on the cross for our sins. You are a christian, so you should know this, as I'm sure you very well do.
Debate Round No. 2
Cooperman88

Pro

I realize that no man can liver perfectly forever. And even if one were to do this they would still need a savior. The reason for this is because of original sin. Man is born into sin. Christ wasn't because of the virgin birth. Not only that, but it is impossible to live perfectly until becoming a Christian. The reason for this is because the Bible says that no man is good. Until they have Christ. So after you have accepted Christ, it is completely and utterly possible to live perfectly. You know the difference between right and wrong, you have the choice of doing right and wrong, and therefore you have the choice of living perfectly.
ANSmith

Con

As a christian, I understand where you are coming from;however, no one can live perfectly, whether or not they are a christian. A person knows the difference between right and wrong regardless of religion. The only difference is that they know the rights and wrongs of christianity.

Spencer W. Kimball wrote a book entitled "The Miracle of Forgiveness" in which he takes on a "in your face" reality check on christ's compassion to forgive. Among the 368 pages of the book, Kimball mentions a rather lengthy list of sins:

"Murder, adultery, theft, cursing, unholiness in masters, disobedience in servants, unfaithfulness, improvidence, hatred of God, disobedience to husbands, lack of natural affection, high-mindedness, flattery, lustfulness, infidelity, indiscretion, backbiting, whispering, lack of truth, striking, brawling, quarrelsomeness, unthankfulness, inhospitality, deceitfulness, irreverence, boasting, arrogance, pride, double-tongued talk, profanity, slander, corruptness, thievery, embezzlement, despoiling, covenant-breaking, incontinence, filthiness, ignobleness, filthy communications, impurity, foolishness, slothfulness, impatience, lack of understanding, unmercifulness, idolatry, blasphemy, denial of the Holy Ghost, Sabbath breaking, envy, jealousy, malice, maligning, vengefulness, implacability, bitterness, clamor, spite, defiling, reviling, evil speaking, provoking, greediness for filthy lucre, disobedience to parents, anger, hate, covetousness, bearing false witness, inventing evil things, fleshliness, heresy, presumptuousness, abomination, insatiable appetite, instability, ignorance, self-will, speaking evil of dignitaries, becoming a stumbling block; and in our modern language, masturbation, petting, fornication, adultery, homosexuality; and every sex perversion, every hidden and secret sin and all unholy and impure practices."

some of these things such as jealousy, pride, lack of understanding, bitterness, anger, hate, self-will, and envy are all normal human traits. One cannot help that they may feel jealousy towards someone. My point in this statement and the long paragraph is that some things we as humans do without thinking about, because it's part of our nature. Like you said, we were born into sin. And if we didn't sin, then Christ would have no purpose.

In conclusion, all men sin. And to say that they can live perfectly is almost naive. We as humans do have agency, but we also sin without realizing it sometimes. The point of this world is to come and follow christ by faith. If we live perfect lives, then Christ would serve no purpose. We are humans, and Christ was the only perfect individual.

I'd like to thank my opponent for posting this debate.
Debate Round No. 3
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Amplifier 8 years ago
Amplifier
Ragnar Rahl

I have layed the asnwer before you, look if you seek answers to your question.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
I do not hold that Heaven exists, so no.

And the point was not that I specifically did not understand it, but that what you said is not coherent, i.e.:

Marked by an orderly, logical, and aesthetically consistent relation of parts: a coherent essay."

Your statement was not marked by order, logic, or aesthetic consistency. It was full of nonsense, such as

"
Today is seems to be plesant but to others it seems old. That is they way we differ you and I. "
That has no meaning. It is nonsense.

"Arent we already different people, then you are correct that we are different in many ways but most importantly we are of different life and beings."
That has very little meaning, it is terrible syntax, and it is not objectively true, i.e., we are not "of different life," we happen to both be living on this earth. We use that fact differently of course.
"Those of the world suffer the curse of sin from Adam and there flesh is dieing, and there master is Satan, for he once ruled the world and today his effects ripple throughout today."

this is nonsense. There is no such thing as "there flesh," that has no meaning. I am of this world, but my flesh is not dying, it is growing, it is living. "there master" also has no meaning, and Satan never ruled the world (no one has ever ruled the world, and even the Bible does not claim Satan ever ruled the world so far as I know), and most importantly you have zero evidence whatsoever.

And so on and so forth. Don't make out to be an error of mine the fact that you have terrible syntax, make a number of meaningless statements, and can't prove a darn thing.
Posted by Amplifier 8 years ago
Amplifier
Ragnar Rahl.

You could not see what I have said. I urge you to try. Truely a loarge issue for non-believers, you are the same as many within this world. Even if you do understand I do not expect you to see eye with me.

Understanding everything within the bible will not allow you to see what I see at all. After all, knowledge and the mind of this world can never see God or understand the real truth of all issues. That is why the Holy Spirit was sent.

Or do you percive that you can understand the secrects of Heaven?
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
That's not the least bit coherent.
Posted by Amplifier 8 years ago
Amplifier
Hello Ragnar Rahl.

Today is seems to be plesant but to others it seems old. That is they way we differ you and I. Arent we already different people, then you are correct that we are different in many ways but most importantly we are of different life and beings. Those of the world suffer the curse of sin from Adam and there flesh is dieing, and there master is Satan, for he once ruled the world and today his effects ripple throughout today. Its what you cannot see that within my old flesh that differes us. Even those who do not understand see that we are the same as other people but from within, we have been given a spirit from The Spirit of God. So we dont suffer the curse of Adam as do you. Here is where we depart from one another. What belongs to this world will die with is world, and this body of mine will die along with it. The creator of my body is a result of Adams free will. When I die I will become like him, when the King returns and unites us with our new body. Within the soul is the curse of this world also, so from within it, everything evil can move. This is to say also that good can come also, but the remains of evil live within and I am pure from the Spirit, so there we are different from soul to spirit. Spirit which is pure needs a pure body with pure soul. Though our soul is effected directly by our mind which is evil. But our The Spirit connects us to purity to overcome this effect of the world, and guides us towards light, and the lighted path. We correct the child from within by the help of The Spirit living within my spirit, and together we live.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"But the flesh is evil isnt it?"

No, the flesh does not have moral terms applicable to it. The mind may be evil or good, depending on the choices it makes. The flesh simply obeys.

"As I stated, the soul of the world needs to be silenced."
the world doesn't have a "Soul," whether you mean some sort of supernatural entity by that (in which case nothing does) or simply an abstraction, a poetic term for the human mind (in which case only indiviudals do).
Posted by Amplifier 8 years ago
Amplifier
Ragnar Rahl,

We are different from the world and you words are true. But the flesh is evil isnt it? As I stated, the soul of the world needs to be silenced.
Posted by Amplifier 8 years ago
Amplifier
Puck.

You have much to learn if you see fit your learning is true.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"
An omnipotent being can choose to allow free agents to perform acts that the being finds displeasing."

But it wouldn't, because it's a being. That which a person regards as displeasing as such, they will act to avoid, or it doesn't really displease them.
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
Amplifier.

There was no misunderstanding. Except the basis upon which your entire statement was built of course. I understand your position well. In fact I could spam these comments sections with ontological proofs against that very thing. It would be futile however. You use a seperate epistomology from myself i.e. faith. No reasoning or argumentive validity will matter because you choose to disregard rational thought. An active choice, and one that makes your claims all the more inane.
9 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Vote Placed by ANSmith 8 years ago
ANSmith
Cooperman88ANSmithTied
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