The Instigator
Kilk1
Pro (for)
Winning
18 Points
The Contender
PowerPikachu21
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The man from the Curiosity Shop is the man from the Trading Post.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Kilk1
Voting Style: Judge Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/17/2015 Category: Games
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 480 times Debate No: 81118
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (3)

 

Kilk1

Pro

Here are the rules:

1. By "The man from the Curiosity Shop," I refer to the character from The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask that runs the Curiosity Shop in Clock Town, whose Zelda Wiki article is here: http://zeldawiki.org...
2. By "the man from the Trading Post," I refer to the one operating the Trading Post near the Curiosity Shop, whose Zelda Wiki section is here: http://zeldawiki.org...
3. By "is," I am connecting the man from the Curiosity Shop with the man from the Trading post, saying that they are both the same person.
4. Con shall make his opening statement in Round 1, getting the first word; Con is not permitted to make any arguments against the proposition in Round 4, the last round, but may make a comment in order to avoid a forfeituregiving me the last word.
5. The burden of proof is shared; Pro (myself) will argue that the proposition is true, while Con will argue that the proposition is false.
6. References shall not be placed in the Comments section.
7. The rules mentioned above shall be in effect according to my interpretation of them.
PowerPikachu21

Con

Thank you for this Legend of Zelda debate. Nice to add some variety onto this website! I'll be arguing that The Curiosity Shop owner is not the same as the Trading Post owner.

In Round 2, I shall make my argument saying why they are not the same. Round 3, I shall refute my opponent's claims. As Pro proposes, I shall merely make a minor statement, unless I feel the need to object.

I have no immediate responses to make, so let's hear Pro's argument. Good luck, and let's begin!
Debate Round No. 1
Kilk1

Pro

Thank you for accepting the debate! Unfortunately, the fourth rule meant that you would begin your points in Round 1, making your "opening statement," and would not make any points in Round 4. Since you did not make any points, you broke the rule, and I WIN! Just kidding. I'll instead repeal that rule, allowing you to make points in Round 4. Just pretend the fourth rule said, "The first round is for acceptance only." Your profile seems to indicate that you're the perfect person for this kind of debate!

Implications from the Game 1: Similar Appearance
Now for my arguments. It is strongly implied in game that the man from the Curiosity Shop and the man from the Trading post are one and the same. First of all, it can't be denied that they look similar.[1] Also, they both have a continual itch, causing them to scratch their backs.[2] In addition, they also both attempt to assure people by saying, "I kid you not!
"[2] These characteristics are highly suggestive of them being the same person.

Implications from the Game 2: Knowledge of Kafei's present childhood
To introduce Kafei (to anyone who may not be sure who he is), I will take no measures to improve on the words of Zeldapedia: "Little is known about Kafei prior to the events of Majora's Mask, though Shikashi mentions that he was a member of the Bombers Secret Society of Justice as a child. The Man from the Curiosity Shop also claims to have been a childhood friend of Kafei's; at one point, the Curiosity Shop Owner gave him a Keaton Mask as a gift.

"Kafei eventually fell in love with Anju, a young girl whose family owns the Stock Pot Inn in Clock Town, and they became engaged. ... However, some time before the events of Majora's Mask, Kafei was transformed into a child by the Skull Kid. ... Ashamed of his loss, he seemingly disappeared without a word to friends and family and hid in Clock Town's Laundry Pool, donning his Keaton Mask to hide his face.

"... When Link speaks to Madame Aroma, Kafei's mother, in the Mayor's Residence, she mistakes him for a professional 'detective' and gives him Kafei's Mask, which resembles Kafei, to allow him to inquire about her lost son."[3]

So we read here that Kafei hid so that no one would see his true identity. However, he did reveal himself to the man from the Curiosity Shop. He said of Kafei, "Now Kafei... I've known him since he was real little... But when he showed up looking all young in that little brat body, I didn't know what I was seeing! All it took was one glance at that Keaton Mask he was carrying for me to realize that I was looking at my old friend. I gave him that mask a long time ago when he was just li'l Kafei. Didn't know he kept it that well for so long..."[4] What does this story have to do with the debate at hand? It shows that the man from the Curiosity Shop knows that Kafei became a kid again, while others do not. Now if the man from the Trading Post can be shown to know that Kafei's become a child again, then no other explaination is better than that he is, in fact, the man from the Curiosity Shop. How about having Link use Kafei's Mask, given by his mother Madame Aroma, to ask the man from the Trading Post where Kafei is. He first shouts, "Kafei!" but then, not wanting to give himself away, says, "No, I don't know any such kid. I kid you not!"[5] Wait a second! He doesn't know of any such "kid"? How did he know that he was a kid? No one, including Link, knew he was a kid. (Otherwise, Tatl, the fairy with Link, would not have been shocked when Kafei introduced himself. Tatl, suprised, said, "The Kafei we're looking for is an adult. When I look at you, I just see a child."[6]

Explicit ackoledgement from official sources
This point is significant, more than even everything else I've just said. Obviously, if an official source says that the man from the Curiosity shop and the man from the Trading Post are one and the same, then they are one and the same. Read this quote from the Official Nintendo Player's Guide: "Buy supplies at the 24-hour Trading Post. The manager looks just like the man at the Curiosity Shop, and it's no coincidence - they're the same person!"[7]

Conclusion
Considering that 1) they have a similar appearance, use similar expressions, and even have the same itch; 2) that they both know who Kafei is, when no one else does; and 3) that the Official Nintendo Player's Guide explicitly says that "they're the same person," I think it's safe to say that the proposition is shown to be correct. If I am wrong, however, it shall be exposed by Con, I'm sure. Thank you!


References
[1] See the two links I gave in Round 1 for the individual(s).
[2] http://zelda.wikia.com...
[3] http://zelda.wikia.com...
[4] http://zeldawiki.org...
[5] http://zeldawiki.org...
[6] http://www.gamefaqs.com...;
[7] http://zeldawiki.org...
PowerPikachu21

Con

Yes, they do in fact look similar, but who's not to say they're twins?

My argument for why they can't be the same person:

- "on the night of the second day, before 9PM, both the Man from the Curiosity Shop and the Man from the Trading Post can be seen in their respective stores." says the LoZ wiki. If they were the same person, then they couldn't be in different places.

- Also, the wiki states talking to the Trading Post owner does not put the Curiosity Shop owner in the Bomber's Notebook. Trading Post isn't entered either, but this is (some) proof that they aren't the same person.

- Trading Post owner is more polite compared to the Curiosity Shop owner.

With that, let's see Pro's response!
Debate Round No. 2
Kilk1

Pro

In my last post, I made three points:

1. The two in question have a similar appearance, use similar expressions, and even have the same itch.
2. They both know who Kafei is, when no one else does.
3. The Official Nintendo Player's Guide explicitly says that "they're the same person!"

Of these three points, Con only attempted to rebut the first one. Con says, "Yes, they do in fact look similar, but who's not to say they're twins?" Nintendo is to say that they're not twins, and they do; the Official Nintendo Player's Guide says their similar appearance is "no coincidence - they're the same person!"

Con made three arguments for why the man from the Curiosity Shop and the man from the Trading Post cannot be the same person:

1. "[O]n the night of the second day, before 9PM, both the Man from the Curiosity Shop and the Man from the Trading Post can be seen in their respective stores."
2. The man from the Curiosity Shop will not be added to the Bomber's Notebook if the Man from the Trading Post is talked to.
3. The man from the Trading Post "is more polite compared to the Curiosity Shop owner."

First Argument
I consider your first argument the most powerful point I know against the proposition. Therefore, I will spend the majority of my characters here.

In order to investigate better, I got onto the game and confirmed something I wondered. Even before 9:00 PM but after 6:00 PM on the second day, the time in which the reference says that they "can be seen in their respective stores," the store is closed, and Link cannot enter the shop. Therefore, the reference is referring to when you peer into the Curiosity Shop from Kafei's house. It's true—you can see the shop's owner there—but think: Why is he there if the store is closed? Of course, it could be argued that he is preparing the store for when it does open up, at 9:00 PMbut he is not preparing it. Rather, he is standing there like he does when he's awaiting customers. This, when combined with the fact that the Official Nintendo Player's Guide explicitly says that "they're the same person," seems to indicate that the incident, in the words of Zelda Wiki, "could be explained as a development error, an intentional discrepancy to help recognize the room into which [Link] is peering ..."

Another interpretation is that, for the same reason (i.e., "to help recognize the room into which [Link] is peering"), since Link is peering through a wall at Kafei's house and would have to run a while to actually get to West Clock Town, it could be intended that the man just happens to be in the Curiosity Shop when Link is peering but then goes back to the Trading Post by the time Link runs over there. Consider this point from Zelda Wiki user Embyr 75:

"... [T]his single instance could be ... the characters moving around/behaving differently based on the player's actions (One could argue that since the Moon's Tear falls a different time and day depending on the player's actions, perhaps the Moon of each 3-day cycle is a different Moon O_O. Ok, I'm taking it too far, but you see the point). If anything, I'd say there's massively more in-game evidence FOR them being the same person, not against them being the same. Those are my two Rupees!"[1]

Second Argument
Your second and third arguments, with brutal honesty, seem much weaker than the first. The Bomber's Notebook is a book that Link adds people to after talking to them, done for the purpose of side missions. Zelda Wiki, as Con pointed out, says the Curiosity Shop owner is not added "when Link talks to the Man from the Trading Post."[2] However, Zelda Wiki also points out that this could "be an intentional device, as the player is not supposed to assume they are the same character from the beginning."[2]

Third Argument
Yes, the Curiosity Shop owner is more rude than the Trading Post owner. But who's not to say that he is putting on a good face (i.e., having a good personality) while at the Trading Post and a bad one while working at the Curiosity Shop? After all, his Curiosity Shop sells goods stolen by thieves, so he wouldn't want the public knowing his true identity.

Conclusion
To conclude, I have three questions for Con to answer:

1. Considering that Kafei is in hiding but revealed himself to the man from the Curiosity Shop, how does the Trading Post owner know that Kafei is a "kid"?
2. When the Curiosity Shop opens, the Trading Post is attended by a part-time employee. If you wear the Stone Mask to make yourself invisible, you can sneak up and hear the employee saying, "We don't get many customers, so why does the boss have so much money?" Does this not imply that the Trading Post owner ("boss") is getting money elsewhere?
3. Considering that the Official Nintendo Player's Guide itself explicitly says that "they're the same person," is there an argument more conclusive that could override this?

References
[1] http://zeldawiki.org....
[2] http://zeldawiki.org...
PowerPikachu21

Con

PowerPikachu21 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Kilk1

Pro

Here are the three questions I asked in the previous round:

1. Considering that Kafei is in hiding but revealed himself to the man from the Curiosity Shop, how does the Trading Post owner know that Kafei is a "kid"?

2. When the Curiosity Shop opens, the Trading Post is attended by a part-time employee. If you wear the Stone Mask to make yourself invisible, you can sneak up and hear the employee saying, "We don't get many customers, so why does the boss have so much money?" Does this not imply that the Trading Post owner ("boss") is getting money elsewhere?
3. Considering that the Official Nintendo Player's Guide itself explicitly says that "they're the same person," is there an argument more conclusive that could override this?

Your goal will be to answer these three questions and perhaps give counterrebuttals for what I have said in Round 3. Also, I just noticed in Round 1 that you said, "As Pro proposes, I shall merely make a minor statement, unless I feel the need to object." If I am correctly interpreting what you mean, I never said that you should only give a "minor statement"; you may use all 5,000 characters given you.

At this point, I believe that I am the winner (though it could of course change). Here are the reasons why:

Conduct
Con forfeited, so I should win in regards to conduct.

Spelling/grammar
I think both of our posts were readable, so I consider this a tie.

More convincing arguments
Con has only responded to my first point from Round 2, while I responded to all of his. Also, I used an official source to verify the proposition, which explicitly says that "they're the same person!" Therefore, I think that I win in regards to more convincing arguments.

Most reliable sources
We both used wikis, and I used original research, but I also took from one wiki a quotation from an official source, so I probably win in this regard.

With that, I will turn the debate back to you, Con!
PowerPikachu21

Con

PowerPikachu21 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by lannan13 1 year ago
lannan13
I was really wanting to see a debate here.
Posted by Kilk1 1 year ago
Kilk1
@PowerPikachu21 Yeah. According to Zelda Wiki, "The hoax attracted believers from all across the Zelda community; however, Jadusable [the one behind the story] has since revealed the story, on his site, as being simply an experiment in testing the gullibility of readers when presented with a story written and carried out in a believable form."
Posted by PowerPikachu21 1 year ago
PowerPikachu21
Ben was a test? I thought that was just a story.
Posted by Kilk1 1 year ago
Kilk1
Huff, huff... Just finished that one with exactly zero characters remaining.

@Lannan13 Yes, this mystery is from the same game as the one with the "BEN drowned" story. The propagator of the story your talking about, though, later admitted it to be a hoax to test how gullible people are (http://zeldawiki.org...).
Posted by lannan13 1 year ago
lannan13
I think they have something like this in the BEN drowned fanfic.
Posted by lannan13 1 year ago
lannan13
I think they have something like this in the BEN drowned fanfic.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by lannan13 1 year ago
lannan13
Kilk1PowerPikachu21Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by 21MolonLabe 1 year ago
21MolonLabe
Kilk1PowerPikachu21Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: CONDUCT: Pro get these points because Con Forfeit. ARGUMENTS: Con's arguments were not very substantial, and Pro refuted them. While Pro's arguments went pretty much uncontested. SOURCES: Pro is the only one that cited sources.
Vote Placed by LostintheEcho1498 1 year ago
LostintheEcho1498
Kilk1PowerPikachu21Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession by Con. Slightly disappointed. Was hoping for something of more substance.