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The modern Bible correctly records the words of God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/3/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 736 times Debate No: 92267
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Okay, so I'm playing "devil's advocate" in another debate in a surprisingly literal sense, and feel slimy every time I finish my argument. So...I'm going to argue a position I actually agree with now to offset the feeling of sliminess I get.

First, a few terms.

Bible: I refer to the 66 book Bible, and prefer the King James version. Another version is just fine as long as it is academically legitimate.

Correctly: No significant margin of error.

God: Supreme Being, Creator, Absolute Highest Authority

Of course, if one does not believe God exists, that would be legitimate grounds to argue against me as well. If you believe in a god other than the one depicted in the Bible, that would also be legitimate grounds to object. I'm really not picky with the grounds for objection as long as it's well argued.

Feel free to post either your position or your position and argument in the first round. Obviously I will be arguing in the second round!

Good luck, in a way that does not mean bad luck for me!


I accept your challenge and will focus on KJV. I came across a good example of questionable translation in KJV while studying the beast.

Jonah 1:17 (KJV) 17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
The Hebrew word for for belly is Me'ah / H4578
Psalm 40:8 (KJV) 8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
The Hebrew word for heart is Me'ah / H4578
Messiah gave the sign of Jonah as three days/ nights in the heart of the earth
And so Jonah spent three days/ nights in the heart of Dagon/ fish.

I would argue that the word Me'ah would have been better rendered as "inward parts", or "place of emotions, distress, or love",

Outline of Biblical Usage:
internal organs, inward parts, bowels, intestines, belly
inward parts
digestive organs
organs of procreation, womb
place of emotions or distress or love (fig.)
external belly

I would also point out that the Fathers Name has been removed from the KJV over 6800 times and replaced with the deference of lord. My argument would be that a deference like lord being used in place of our Creators Name violates many scriptural principles.

Jonah 1:17 (KJV) Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

וַיְמַ֤ן יְהוָה֙ דָּ֣ג גָּדֹ֔ול לִבְלֹ֖עַ אֶת־יֹונָ֑ה וַיְהִ֤י יֹונָה֙ בִּמְעֵ֣י הַדָּ֔ג שְׁלֹשָׁ֥ה יָמִ֖ים וּשְׁלֹשָׁ֥ה לֵילֹֽות׃

יְהוָה֙ / YHUH. Not lord.

Tehillim (Psalms) 145:21
My mouth speaks the praise of יהוה (Yahuah), And let all flesh barak (bless) His qodesh Name, forever and ever.

Tehillim (Psalms) 22:22
I make known Your Name to my brothers; In the midst of the assembly I praise you.

Ibrim (Hebrews) 2:12
Saying, "I shall anounce Your Name to My brothers, in the midst of the congregation I shall sing praise to you."

Yo'el (Joel) 2:26
"Then you shall eat - eat and be satisfied- and shall praise יהוה (Yahuah) your Elohim, who has done with you so wondrously. And My people shall never be put to shame.

Melakim 8:33-25"When Your people Yisra'el are smitten before an enemy, because they have sinned against you, and they shall turn back to You and confess Your Name, and pray and make supplication to you in this House, 34 then hear in the shamayim, and forgive the sin of Your people Yisra'el and bring them back to the land which You gave to their fathers. 35 "When the shamayim are shut up and there is no rain because they sin against You, when they pray toward this place and confess Your Name, and turn from their sin because You afflict them,

Melakim 8:41-43"Also, concerning a foreigner, who is not of your people Yisra'el, but has come from a far land for Your Name's sake- 42 since they hear of Your great Name and Your strong hand and your outstretched arm - and he shall come and pray toward this house, 43 hear in the shamayim Your dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreignor calls to You, so that all peoples of the earth know Your Name and revere You, as do your people Yisra'e'l , and know that this House which I have built is called by Your Name.

YirmeYahu/ Jeremiah 31:33-36"For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra'el after those days, declares Yahuah: I shall put my Torah in their inward parts, and wright it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim and they shall be My people. 34 "And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbor, and each one his brother, saying, 'know Yahuah,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares Yahuah. "For I shall forgive their wickedness, and remember their sin no more. "
35 Thus said Yahuah, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the laws of the moon and stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea, and its waves roar - Yahuah of hosts is His Name: 36 " If these laws vanish from before Me " declares Yahuah, "then the seed of Yisra'el shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever."

Yirmeyahu/ Jeremiah 16:19-21
O Yahuah, my strength and my stronghold and my refuge, in the day of distress the gentles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers have inherited only falsehood, futility, and there is no value in them." 20 Would a man make mighty ones for himself, which are not mighty ones? 21 "Therefore see, I am causing them to know, this time I cause them to know My hand and My might. And they shall know that My Name is Yahuah!"

Psalms 119:132 Turn to me and show me favour, According to Your Right-Ruling, toward those who love Your Name.
Debate Round No. 1


Yay! That you for accepting!

In regard to the Jonah verse,

I agree that the Hebrew word for heart is Me-ay (Me-ah actually means 100 I think.) And Me-ay is definitely the word for "heart" in Psalms 40:8.

However, the word used in Jonah 1:17 is not Me-ay, it's actually "Bim-e". Bim-e is translated "was in the belly".
Was there evidence that led you to believe the word was actually Me-ay, or was it just something you thought of as you were studying? (If there was such evidence, please present it!)

Now, your point on God's proper name being replaced with LORD is more interesting!

To my knowledge, it is technically true that God's proper name was translated LORD out of deference for God.

The reason for this (at least, the one I think is the reason) is quite simple, the Hebrew name God gave to the Israelites simply cannot be translated perfectly into English. (To my knowledge.)

As you mentioned, the closest we can translate in English is the Tetragrammaton YHWH.

This is an unreadable and unpronounceable name, because it does not have any vowels. It also is not even technically an English word, because it doesn't have any vowels. So, my understanding is that unless the translators left God's name in an unreadable form (either the actual Hebrew or the Tetragrammaton,) literally ANY translation would have been wrong. Because God's name in Hebrew does not translate perfectly into English. (Though to be fair, they might have guessed the vowels correctly, it just wouldn't have then been a translation per se.)
So it is probably true that the translators replaced God's proper name with LORD out of deference to Him, because if they would have attempted a translation it would have been an imperfect translation. While the translators seemed totally fine throwing in vowels for readability in names like Jonah, they seem to have been understandably cautious with the name of God.

In the Hebrew culture (as you probably know from your studies) every name had a meaning. So the way the translators got around this dilemma, it seems, was attempting to translate the meaning of the name God gave the Israelites instead of the actual proper name itself.
This would be roughly the equivalent of the translators replacing the name "Jacob" in the Bible with the name "holder of the heel". Because Jacob means "holder of the heel".

So to understand what God's proper name means, we should look at the place where God first gives His proper name, which I believe is Exodus 3: 13-15
"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

The word "LORD" here, I think, is the first time God gives His name. So from looking at this, it appears that the meaning of the name God gave to Moses means "I AM THAT I AM" in the context of the Israelites challenging His messenger. From this, it seems that God's proper name means that He is sovereign and absolute in authority.
The meaning of God's name (it seems), the idea that He is sovereign and absolute, is then put into the English name "LORD". (Which, as a side note, I believe the Jewish people had been using long beforehand because they did not like to say the name of God aloud.)

So, because it seems impossible to translate the name of God in Hebrew perfectly into a name in English, the translators translated the meaning of the Hebrew word into the English name "LORD". This seems perfectly reasonable to me (I am certainly up for a revisement of my theory, if you have a better one) so I am interested to hear your reasons against it!

That said, just as a preliminary argument, we know the Bible records the words of God because (for one) the Being the words allegedly come from consistently demonstrated control of reality in a host of accurate decrees about the future, such as Ezekiel 26 which predicts the fall of Tyre in explicate detail, Jeremiah 23: 8 which predicts that the Jews will be gathered from the "land of the north" and reform the nation of Israel, the explicate prophecies about Jesus (Isaiah being one book to look at), Isaiah 44:28 which predicts that a king named Cyrus will rebuild Jerusalem, and quite a few more. However, it seems that your primary point of contention is that you hold that the Bible was significantly altered. So we'll stay there for a while!

It seems that our primary cause for debate right now is whether the word "LORD" instead of an attempted translation of God's proper name is a significant variation. Obviously my current position is that it is not.


All of the etymology, outlines of biblical usage, come from the Blue Letter Bible and are readily available to you online. If you wish me to provide hard copy of the Strong's, or of the Hebrew lexicon, I would be more than happy to. As far as my reference to Me'ah, it is the root of Bmai and is listed in BLB, Strong's, and Hebrew lexicon as the word used. If my use is improper, I apologize.

Hebrew Interlinear Table
Jonah 1:17 (KJV) Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
English (KJV) Strong's Root Form (Hebrew) Pronunciation
Now the LORD 3068 Yĕhovah
had prepared
4487 manah
a great 1419 gadowl
fish 1709 dag
to swallow up
1104 bala`
Jonah 3124 Yonah
And Jonah 3124 Yonah
was in the belly 4578 me`ah
of the fish 1709 dag

Your mention of Exodus 3:13 is perfect as "I am" is HaYah and helps illustrate my point. And yes, יהוה is used in verse 15 just as it is in nearly 7000 other verses.

To your assertion that Father Yah's Name is unpronounceable, I disagree. We derive the word "Jew" from the Hebrew word Yahudah/ Judah. If you remove the Daleth, you are left with Yahuah, whom Yahudah is named for. most Hebrews took Father Yah's Name for their children.

Transliteration: Yĕhuwdah
Pronunciation: yeh"h""d"'
Part of Speech: proper masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology): from H3034

In all the scriptures I cited in round one, and the hundreds more, attest to the fact that our Creator wishes us to use His Name. Now I'm aware the Jews believe they are offering respect by using lord /Adoni in opposition to His proper Name but what does Father Yah ask of us? Are we to follow men or are we to listen to our Maker? Especially if those men are spiritual descendants of the men who where tossed from the land and made a everlasting reproach.

""Am I an Elohim close by," declares יהוה, "and not an Elohim afar off? "If anyone is hidden in secret places, would I not see him?" declares יהוה. "Do I not fill the heavens and earth?" declares יהוה. "I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsehood in My Name, saying, "I have dreamed, I have dreamed!" "Till when shall it be in the heart of the prophets? " the prophets of falsehood and prophets of the deceit of their own heart, who try to make My people forget My Name by their dreams which everyone relates to his neighbour, as their fathers forgot My Name for BaR19;al. "The prophet who has a dream, let him relate the dream, and he who has My Word, let him speak My Word in truth. What is the chaff to the wheat?" declares יהוה. "Is not My Word like a fire?" declares יהוה, "and like a hammer that shatters a rock? "Therefore see, I am against the prophets," declares יהוה, "who steal My Words every one from his neighbour. "See, I am against the prophets," declares יהוה, "who use their tongues and say, "He declares." "See, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares יהוה, "and relate them, and lead My people astray by their falsehoods and by their reckless boasting. But I Myself did not send them nor have I commanded them. And they do not profit this people at all," declares יהוה. "And when these people or the prophet or the priest ask you, saying, "What is the message of יהוה?" then you shall say to them, "What message?" I shall forsake you," declares יהוה. "As for the prophet and the priest and the people who say, "The message of יהוה," I shall punish that man and his house. "This is what each one says to his neighbour, and each one to his brother, "What has יהוה answered?" and, "What has יהוה spoken?" "But the message of יהוה you no longer remember! For every man"s message is his own word, for you have changed the Words of the living Elohim, יהוה of hosts, our Elohim! "This is what you say to the prophet, "What has יהוה answered you?" and, "What has יהוה spoken?" "But since you say, "The message of יהוה!" therefore thus said יהוה, "Because you say this word, "The message of יהוה!" and I have sent to you, saying, "Do not say, "The message of יהוה!" " therefore see, I, I shall utterly forget you and cast you away from My presence, along with the city that I gave you and your fathers. "And I shall put an everlasting reproach on you, and an everlasting shame that is not forgotten." ""
R37;R37;JeremiahR36; R37;23:23-40R36; R37;ISR98R36;R36;

Notice that their fathers Had forgot Father Yah's Name in favor of Ba'al? Nothing's changed! Scripture insisted there's nothing new under the sun and this issue is no different!

Here is Webster's Dictionary,

Ba'al signifies lord.

We believers go to our assemblies and yell out "HalleluYah" and yet most don't even realize they just spoke the Hebrew phrase, praise be to Yah. In the scriptures we see Hebrews using this short form of the Fathers Name יהוה /Yahuah.

Psalm 68:4 (KJV)
Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.

Root Word (Etymology): contraction for H3068, and meaning the same
Outline of Biblical Usage:
Jah (Jehovah in the shortened form)
the proper name of the one true God
used in many compounds
names beginning with the letters 'Je'
names ending with 'iah' or 'jah'

I like to share this excerpt from the forward of the NIV and point out " the translators adopted the DEVICE used in most English versions"...
I would point out this includes the KJV.

Webster's Dictionary says...
DEVICE, noun [Latin]

1. That which is formed by design, or invented; scheme; artificial contrivance; stratagem; project; sometimes in a good sense; more generally in a bad sense, as artifices are usually employed for bad purposes.

In a good sense:

His device is against Babylon, to destroy it. Psalms 21:11.

In a bad sense:

He disappointeth the devices of the crafty. Psalms 21:11.

They imagined a mischievous device Psalms 21:11.

2. An emblem intended to represent a family, person, action or quality, with a suitable motto; used in painting, sculpture and heraldry. It consists in a metaphorical similitude between the things representing and represented, as the figure of a plow representing agriculture.

Knights-errant used to distinguish themselves by devices on their shields.

3. Invention; genius; faculty of devising; as a man of noble device

4. A spectacle or show.

What does Father Yah have to say about the devices of men?

Proverbs 1:23-33
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

So there is no real excuse to ignore His Name as no one can really argue against something they call Him every, Sunday for many, sabbath morning, Hallelu-Yah!

"Then shall those who fear יהוה speak to one another, and יהוה listen and hear, and a book of remembrance be written before Him, of those who fear יהוה, and those who think upon His Name."
R37;R37;MalachiR36; R37;3:16R36; R37;ISR98R36;R36;

Christianity is to busy thinking on "the lord" to worry bout His Name.

Psalms 119:132 HS. Turn to me and show me favour, According to Your Right-Ruling, toward those who love Your Name.

According to your argument, His Name is not important, we don't kneed to love His Name.

Ma'aseh (Proverbs) 10:43"To this One all the Nebi'im (prophets) bear witness, that through His Name, everyone believing in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

But men say His Name matters not.

""You do not bring the Name of יהוה your Elohim to naught, for יהוה does not leave the one unpunished who brings His Name to naught."
R37;R37;ExodusR36; R37;20:7R36; R37;ISR98R36;R36;

"Naught" / shav

Results for H7723 - shav'
Transliteration: shav'
Pronunciation: sh"v
Part of Speech: masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology): from the same as H7722 in the sense of desolating
Outline of Biblical Usage:
emptiness, vanity, falsehood
emptiness, nothingness, vanity
emptiness of speech, lying
worthlessness (of conduct)
KJV Translation Count:
53 Totalvain 22, vanity 22, false 5, lying 2, falsely 1, lies 1

Nothingness? Makes me thing of a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.
Power in His Name!
Debate Round No. 2


"As far as my reference to Me'ah, it is the root of Bmai and is listed in BLB, Strong's, and Hebrew lexicon as the word used."
It certainly is the root word of the word used for "belly"! I didn't know that, so yay I learned something! But it's not actually the word used, it is only the root form of the word used.
I think you're primarily using the Blue Letter Bible. Is that correct? If so, in the tool bar where you access the Interlinear Bible, there is also a tab for cross-referencing. If you cross-reference this verse, the word for "belly" does not come up anywhere else in the Bible! I copied it here,

Phrase from KJV [?]Correlating VersesTSK Help

the LORD Jon 4:6; Gen 1:21; Psa 104:25,26; Hab 3:2
in Mat 12:40; Mat 16:4; Luk 11:30
belly Heb. bowels.

The same goes for the Strong's Concordance, the word used here for "was in the belly" is not used anywhere else in the Bible to my knowledge. (The Hebrew word isn't actually one word for belly, it's a word meaning "was in the belly".)
So while the word me'ah might be the root word, it's not the full word that is translated in this passage.
I'm not sure if your last sentence in this paragraph is saying that you agree that the word is not "me'ah", if that's what you were saying, I apologize for driving a moot point!

On to the fun point!

I actually don't have any qualms with the argument that we are to honor and call on the name of God. That seems totally reasonable to me. This is where I take contention,

"To your assertion that Father Yah's Name is unpronounceable, I disagree." This is where I will focus for now. I don't think it is seriously disputed that often our English names for Bible characters were their actual given names, because Hebrew names don't translate into English. For instance,
Joshua was actually something like yehoshua
Moses was actually something like Mosheh
Solomon was actually something like Shelomoh

To be fair, some names like David and Abraham translate relatively well. But it should come as no surprise that if God's name were translated into English, it would likely undergo a significant change like the word that roughly is "Yehoshua" when translated into English "Joshua".
In fact, we can know with a large degree of certainty that it WOULD have, because as you and I have both said, the closest thing we can get to the translation of God's name in English is Tetragrammoton YHWH, which is certainly unpronounceable in English. Do you contest this claim, or do you believe "YHWH" to be pronounceable in English?
The only way to make it pronounceable is to throw in vowels like we did the names of other Biblical characters.
You mentioned the word "Yehudah" meaning "Judah". In Hebrew (writing) there are no vowels. So actually, the "e" "u" and "a" in this transliteration are added. A somewhat direct translation might be "YHDH". Obviously, the translators added in vowels to make it readable, which is just fine if one is describing "just" Judah. But as you have pointed out numerous times, the name of God is VERY important, and the translators apparently did not want to throw in vowels the way they had with other names, because the name was very, very important. Would they probably have gotten the vowels right? Based on how detail obsessive the makers of the KJV seemed to be, they probably would have. But they didn't want to play the guessing game.
So, you would agree that an English translation of the name God gave the Israelites would not be the same name recorded in the texts being translated, correct?
I honestly do not know how the subsequent paragraph assists your argument. Perhaps you could rephrase it? Yes, if you transliterate the Hebrew word for Judah and take away the Daleth you get roughly the transliterated word for God. I am not sure what the relevance of that is.

I do not see the issue with translating the meaning of God's name, either. Did I miss that, or could you rephrase it perhaps? I think this was your alternative explanation,
"Your mention of Exodus 3:13 is perfect as "I am" is HaYah and helps illustrate my point." Is that correct? Again (correct me if I am wrong) HaYah is only the root word. The actual word that is used is roughly "Eh-Yeh. " But I really don't see how this assists your argument, would you mind elaborating?

As to the mentioning of the meaning of Ba'al, what is being argued? I am not sure what this supports. Some countries call their leader "President", while other countries also call their leader "President". Some religions call their god "lord", others call their God "Lord". I am not sure I follow. Could you please rephrase this?

And the next few paragraphs talk about the importance of God's name, which I have no objection to, and the superiority of God's ways over man's ways, which I certainly have no objection to.

Finally, of course I must ask, what would you prefer the translators have used instead of "LORD"? Both "Jehovah" and "Yahweh" add in vowels, where the actual Hebrew would have no vowels, and both run the risk of mispronouncing the Name aloud, even if so. "LORD" seems like a reasonable translation to me (for it seems to put the same meaning into an English word, which is usually the point of translation apparently with the occasional exception of names,) but what alternative would you prefer?

I am honored this is your first debate! I will try to make an outstanding impression, I'm sure!


First off, thank you, this debate we're having seems more like a nice conversation and I apologize for being a bit confusing. Busy man chasing grandchildren all weekend.

To answer those questions, I use a couple versions of restored Names scripture that allow me to transliterate as I read.
יהוה / Yahuah
Yahusha / יהושוע
The Transliteration is mine and in no way affects how you breath / speak His Name. I don't argue about those things and truly believe Father Yah leads all in His time.

Hebrew words are really sentences. What do you see when you look at Messiah's name in Hebrew? An abbreviated sentence of Yah is salvation. This brings my mind back to Me'ah and what possibly was conveyed in Hebrew and lost to an English speaking crowd. If we are aware that Mosheh was prophesying about Messiah being a prophet "like unto him (Mosheh), then Mosheh must of used parables to illustrate truths as well. My point of Me'ah is not so much about how Jonah conveyed the thought but rather how Messiah did. I believe that an intent has been purposely muddled by the beast and that messiah was indeed speaking about the beast when referencing "heart of the earth". Messiah giving the sign of Yonah would be belly of the earth which lines up with Rev. 13 beast making ready to eat man child. There is a beautiful poetry to Hebrew that I think won't be fully understood till our Messiah returns. With the "New Testament" having gone through so many hands and loosing much of its salt I'm forced to stay away. I believe we need stick to a more ancient path and that the twisted serpent has twisted "the Bible" to represent its image. This is why the whole world wonders about the beast.

Hopefully this helps clarify my argument and that you understand the devices of man should not be used and represented as scripture. I think we agree on this point but that there may be difference in how we transliterate names. I believe the "Tetragrammaton " should be left in place of generic titles of authority and that the transliteration be left to the reader.

Thank you for your joy Sir, I do feel your love. And wish you peace.
Debate Round No. 3


Thank you for your kind words! That made my day!

I don't know that the confusion is your fault. People from different belief systems and from different countries often just have different ways of reasoning and thinking about things. It may just be that I haven't quite figured out what yours is yet. So I hope you don't mind if I still ask for clarification for some things.

Your general thought on this matter seems to boil down to,
" I believe the "Tetragrammaton " should be left in place of generic titles of authority and that the transliteration be left to the reader." Meaning that you believe the KJV translators should have written "YHWH" instead of "LORD", is that correct? I don't think this is an unreasonable wish in the least bit. But here is my understanding on why "LORD" is probably better.

First, the word "LORD" actually doesn't seem to me to be just a generic title of authority. There is a very particular reason, at least as far as I can tell, that "LORD" was selected as the best translation instead of "King" or "Emperor" or "Leader". The word "lord" refers specifically to the quality of having authority. Just for clarity, defines "lord" as
"someone or something having power, authority, or influence; a master or ruler." (I just mention this definition for clarity of argument.)

Merriam-Webster defines "lord" as
": one having power and authority over others:"

So the word "lord" really refers specifically to the state of having authority. Not so with most other titles of authority, which often emphasis the state of having a title instead of just the state of having authority. King, for instance, refers more to a hierarchal and social position within a society. (A King does not necessarily have much authority, example being a modern day King of England, who is more ceremonial.) An Emperor has authority, but the word does not necessarily concern specifically the state of his having authority as much as the state of him being the leader of an empire. It's an extremely subtle difference, but it is an important one. And I could go on, but won't bore you.

To be fair, there are some other titles that might have worked. "Sovereign" might not have been a bad translation, but it kind of misses the element of God's intrinsic characteristic of authority. "Ruler" is almost a synonym for "lord", but even that I think is less concerned with one's authority itself than one's ability to command. (And, frankly, it doesn't have quite the same awe-inspiring connotations as "lord".) Though it probably wouldn't have been the end of the world if they went with those two, they just don't seem as good. So to me, "LORD" is actually the best title of authority, because if we look at the nuance between the different titles of authority we have, "LORD" seems to best capture what I think the word "Yahweh" means. (The meaning being, I think, the inherent sovereignty and authority of God. "I AM THAT I AM.")
Secondly, it's kind of late to ask, but would you agree that God's name, the Tetragammaton of which is "YHWH", has a meaning in Hebrew besides just being a proper name? It seems to me that God's name means "I AM THAT I AM", or "LORD" or something of that nature. As such, if we were to leave God's name at "YHWH", would you agree that the meaning of the name would be lost on an English reading audience?

So, here's a bit of a summary of what I'm at least trying to convey about why "Yahweh" is replaced with "LORD". Yahweh is a transliteration, not actually a translation. The translated word is, "LORD". We get the name "Yahweh" through transliteration. But here's my contention with that; let's look at the (very roughly) transliterated version of Exodus 3:15:

"elohe abotekem elohe Yahweh yisrael bane el- tomar koh- moseh el- elohim owd wayomer zikri wazeh laolam, sami zeh- alekem, salahani yaaqob welohe yishaq elohe abraham dor lador."

Now, this is the translated version:
"And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

The purpose of translation is to capture the meaning of words in one language (Hebrew) and put them into words with the same meaning in another language (English.) As we can see with this one verse, the meaning of the Hebrew words (roughly transliterated above) were taken and put into English words with the same meaning. So it seems totally reasonable that the meaning of the Hebrew word transliterated roughly "Yahweh" was taken and translated into the English word "LORD" which seems to have similar meaning.

Of course, you're advocating for it being left at YHWH, which is a very interesting idea. It's not quite a translation though, and I'm not sure what the point of it would be if it does not convey any meaning, and it is up to the reader to decipher how to read it. It seems that one might as well leave it in Hebrew, if we're going to leave it in that form. But truthfully I'm not altogether opposed to the idea, I just don't think the translators of the KJV were wrong for translating the word "LORD" instead of converting it to the Tetragammaton.
I'll just put it out there that my personal preferance actually would have been that the translators transliterated the word "Yahweh", and added a footnote every time the word came up to clarify that the word means "LORD, or I AM THAT I AM". That would be my personal preference. But I do not think it is correct to say that the translators were wrong for translating the meaning of the Hebrew Name instead of transliterating the Hebrew Name. But that really seems more like a matter of personal preference, and if it had to be one or the other, I think the rational is much better for translating the word "LORD". This translation seems totally reasonable, and in any event does not really call into question whether the words of God were recorded correctly in the Bible.

Final questions,
"My point of Me'ah is not so much about how Jonah conveyed the thought but rather how Messiah did. I believe that an intent has been purposely muddled by the beast and that messiah was indeed speaking about the beast when referencing "heart of the earth"." What led you to believe this? The oldest manuscripts of the New Testament seem to confirm the modern understanding of this reference, so what evidence led you to believe it has been lost?

"With the "New Testament" having gone through so many hands and loosing much of its salt I'm forced to stay away. I believe we need stick to a more ancient path and that the twisted serpent has twisted "the Bible" to represent its image." This might require another discussion, but what led you to believe the Bible has been twisted? Is it all contingent on whether the Hebrew name for God should have been transliterated or translated? (Because honestly, I'm not sure that's entirely sufficient grounds to "stay away" from the Bible.) Or are there other factors you are looking at?

I felt like I was ranting a little bit this round. So sorry. It has been a pleasure debating you! It's fun to discuss these matters with people who can talk about the Hebrew for the words, and I do appreciate your cordiality quite a bit as well! I wish you well in your studies and in life!


The problems with the King James Bible are not limited to devices used in place of Father Yah's Name, but includes a wide verity of issues from Latin mixed into Hebrew text to the names of other pagan gods.

Exodus 23:13 (KJV) 13 And in all [things] that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

So to illustrate the KJV violates Father Yah's command I've given a couple examples.

Isaiah 63:10 (KJV) 10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.

Holy: from "halo" and derived from Helios, Greek god of the sun

Isaiah 63:12 (KJV) 12 That led [them] by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

Glorious: from Latin "Gloria". A halo or nimbus. Sun worship.
Ever lasting Name the whole world forgets for titles derived from pagan worship.

Deuteronomy 32:20 (KJV)
And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith.

Faith: from Latin "Fides" Roman goddess of faith and loyalty.

Genesis 6:8 (KJV)
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Grace: from Roman "Gratiae" triune Greek goddess.

Matthew 4:23 (KJV) 23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Gospel: gods spell

Encyclopedia Britannica:" God is the common Teutonic word for a personal object of religious worship, applied to all the superhuman beings of the heathen mythologies. The word 'god' on the conversion of the Teutonic races to Christianity was adopted as the name of the One Supreme Being. "

Even the word "bless" is derived from pagan blood sacrifices. A blending of religious ideas has gone on for thousands of years and this should be no surprise.

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV)
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Here is a change made in scripture meant to convey an image to the mind of the reader. It is improper and speaks to how the heathen sought to paint their images into scripture. In the pantheons of the nations, through the blending of religious beliefs, gods and goddesses, demons and devils, we can see this concept. That is why today Catholics pray to a Celtic goddess, now saint, named Bridget. This blending of religious belief among the nations being the direct cause of the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes who tried to force the synchronization of religious life within his empire.

And laid open the Book of the Torah, wherein the gentiles had sought to paint the likeness of their images.
1 Maqqabim (Maccabees) 3:48 Halleluyah Scriptures

This was a problem for Yisra'el that we see illustrated from golden calf to expulsion from their land. A blending of the qodesh (set apart) with the profane. This practice of religious synchronization did not stop with the advent of Christianity, but rather intensified, as new emperors and kings sought unity among their subjects.
This practice of men an abomination to Father Yah.

""Her priests have done violence to My teaching and they profane My set-apart matters. They have not distinguished between the set-apart and profane, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean. And they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, and I am profaned in their midst."
Ezekiel 22:26 ISR98

Thank you for this conversation. Very enjoyable and in good company! It truly has been a joy and I wish you the favor of Father Yah!
Debate Round No. 4
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Posted by Fatbstrd 2 years ago
This is my first debate and I am finding out that some of the information I shared was deleted upon posting. I will share them here.

Webster's Dictionary,
Ba'al: noun, An idol among the ancient Chaldeans and Syrians, representing the sun. The word signifies also lord, or commander, and the character of the idol was varied by different nations, at different times. Thus ba'al Berith is supposedly to signify the Lord of the Covenant , ba'al Peor, or rather ba'al Phegor, the lord of the dead. Ps. cvi, ba'al Zebub, the God of flies, etc.

Ba'al signifies lord.

The second piece of info cut from my post is an excerpt from the forward of the NIV. KJV adopted this same "device".

"In regard to the divine name YHWH, commonly referred to as the Tetragrammaton, the translators adopted the device used in most English versions of rendering that name as "Lord" in capital letters to distinguish it from Adonai, another Hebrew word rendered "Lord", for which small letters are used. "
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