The Instigator
domdom2
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Stonewall
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points

The nsa is effective enough to use

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Stonewall
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/10/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 684 times Debate No: 42049
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

domdom2

Con

The NSA has a budget of about 10billion dollars. Which has been used to stop 0 attacks. We are wasting money on them
Stonewall

Pro

Thanks for the opportunity to debate this topic. And sorry for the late response; life happens.

First of all, I'd like to see a source on your "0 attacks" statement. That just seems too negative to be true, but I'll be the first to admit it if you have a legitimate source.

General Keith Alexander, director of the NSA, said earlier this year,

"We provided 54 cases to several congressional committees in which these [NSA] programs contributed to our understanding, and in many cases, helped enable the disruption of terrorist plots in the U.S. and in over 20 countries throughout the world... Of the 54, 42 involved disruptive plots — disrupted plots. Twelve involved cases of material support to terrorism. Fifty of the 54 cases led to arrests or detentions. Our allies benefited, too. Twenty-five of these events occurred in Europe, 11 in Asia and five in Africa. Thirteen events had a homeland nexus. In 12 of those events, Section 215 contributed to our overall understanding and help to the FBI — twelve of the 13." (1)

Now, I know that the NSA is very secretive. When asked for exact documentation of these statistics, they don't always release it. Thus, the main criticism of these claims is that they are unsubstantiated. This is obviously baseless in itself. We cannot expect the NSA to give up every single detail regarding these cases; that would most likely be detrimental to their program. That doesn't mean that the NSA hasn't done anything. Details have been revealed for some of these cases. Even if there was only slight contribution, it remains contribution nevertheless, and is thus worth every penny.

1. http://icontherecord.tumblr.com...
Debate Round No. 1
domdom2

Con

General Keith Alexander has been asked how many times the NSA has stopped terrorists attacks. Each time he has been asked the number has changed. According to CNN General Keith Alexander has said it started at 54 attacks in the world. Then only 13 in the united states. Now it has changed to just one has been stopped. The one that has been stopped was a New York subway bombing. The NSA wasn't even a big part of it the British government told us the information they had about it and thats how we stopped them.
There has been 49 homegrown terrorist plots in the United states. According to General Keith Alexander on one has been stopped. So there has been 48 that has been stopped due to other means then the NSA. So this proves that whatever money is going into the NSA is not being used to its full potential. The estimate of the NSA"s budget is about 8-10 billion dollars. So that means that money right there is not going to its full potential. Plus you can not go any more accurate than the leader of the NSA. So when he said only one attack the deputy director of the FBI, Sean M. Joyce, backed him up on it. My source was the CNN article.

The CNN article had a video of him saying it. The Video showed him admitting to one attack. Also in that same article it says the one that was stopped was the subway bombing. That was stopped by the FBI on information that was given by the British government thus stating that the NSA has NOT saved any american lives.
Stonewall

Pro

Again, you have left these statements without a link. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were actually reading a real CNN article/video. The following article is from October 7th, over three months after the article I provided last round. I can't find the exact CNN one you referred to, so I hope this article will suffice. If it doesn't, well, you should have been more specific.


(http://www.allgov.com...)


"Each time he has been asked the number has changed. According to CNN General Keith Alexander has said it started at 54 attacks in the world. Then only 13 in the united states [sic]."


You're skewing his words to make it look like he's lying, but that's not correct. What you just said basically sums up the one large quote I left last round, all said in one meeting. In the article I just provided for you, he said that 53 of the 54 plots were assisted with tips that were used to "unravel the threat stream." This is consistent with the quote I provided last round, he made it explicitly clear that, "We provided 54 cases to several congressional committees in which these [NSA] programs contributed to our understanding, and in many cases, helped enable the disruption of terrorist plots in the U.S. and in over 20 countries throughout the world..." He has evidently not changed that story.


The same goes for the "13 in the united states" thing. In the large quote last round, he said that of the 54 attacks worldwide, "Thirteen events had a homeland nexus." You're not bettering your point; you're strengthening mine.


"Now it has changed to just one has been stopped."


First of all, in the very first round, you said that zero attacks had been stopped. Are you agreeing with Alexander? If so, stopping even one terrorist-related plot/event/attack is worth every penny.


Second, I took the time to look up this video and watch it. I will go into this in more detail shortly.


"There has been 49 homegrown terrorist plots in the United states. According to General Keith Alexander on one has been stopped. So there has been 48 that has been stopped due to other means then [sic] the NSA."


Again, I had to Google your numbers to base my argument on. The first result provided the following quote:


"Yet, the fact remains that there have been at least 60 Islamist-inspired terrorist plots against the homeland since 9/11, illustrating the continued threat of terrorism against the United States. Fifty-three of these plots were thwarted long before the public was ever in danger, due in large part to the concerted efforts of U.S. law enforcement and intelligence." (1)


As far as I can tell, you're pulling these quotes/statistics out of a hat and hoping I'm not going to fact-check you even a little bit.


"The estimate of the NSA"s budget is about 8-10 billion dollars. So that means that money right there is not going to its full potential."


When 54 plots have been stopped, that money seems a bit more worth it.


"Plus you can not go any more accurate than the leader of the NSA... My source was the CNN article."


Considering you paraphrased my argument, seemingly made up a quote, and provided no article, I suppose you could have been a little more accurate.


"The CNN article had a video of him saying it. The Video showed him admitting to one attack. Also in that same article it says the one that was stopped was the subway bombing."


Okay, I finally found this video. It's apparent you didn't watch any of it. In addition to explaining how he stopped the subway bombing, Alexander also says that the NSA has helped stopped, "over fifty (plots) since 9/11 (and) just a little over ten (in the U.S.)." (2) Over several interviews and press conferences, Alexander has consistently not changed one iota of his story.


___


Typically, I overlook missed citations or quotes if they're reasonable. But in this debate, it got to the point of unintelligibly. I could not follow your argument. It became even more unclear when I had to look up your sources for you and immediately found (intentionally or not) skipped details. Most of your points are baseless, confusing, or simply misleading.



Voters, vote for whoever made the better argument.


___



1. http://www.heritage.org...;


2. http://www.cnn.com...;

Debate Round No. 2
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Stonewall 3 years ago
Stonewall
I don't know why I'm wasting my time here when you had two rounds to make your case. GKA *never* said there was only one stopped. You obviously didn't read my round two argument showing you why that was wrong.
Posted by domdom2 3 years ago
domdom2
Also my 49 terrorist attacks came from that heritage article. It talks about 60 terror plots but then only 52 against the US. Since three were foiled merely by luck that leaves 49. Since GKA stated just one has been stopped therefor 48 by local law enforcement. http://www.cnn.com... that is the CNN article about the one attack.
Posted by domdom2 3 years ago
domdom2
Because General Keith Alexander has stated that there has been one stopped. It was the New York Subway bombing but in fact they played no role for it was the British government that warned us. In the end it was the FBI that stopped them.
Posted by Guidestone 3 years ago
Guidestone
How do you know 0 attacks have been stopped. That number would be classified.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by GarretKadeDupre 3 years ago
GarretKadeDupre
domdom2StonewallTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: obviously