The nuking and the bombing of japan at the end of ww2 was unneaded and evil.
I also want to argue the reasons for America dropping the bombs was not to save lives and i would like to here what any won else has to say about the reasons.
I accept this debate. My opponent shall argue first.
Ok lets go:
Bombing japan in 1945 Reason 1
The Americans had no need to continuously kill Japanese civilians when Japan had no way of threatening the US. I mean the USA blockaded Japan so it got no resources and japan had no air force or navy left, and i couldn't pose a threat in this condition so WHY did the USA continue to bomb a country's major CITY'S that's like what the Nazis done to Brittan but at least when they done it the UK was a threat.
In conclusion i think that the US only bombed japan because they thought the Japanese deserved it for attacking them.
The ONLY thing japan done to the USA was bomb there harbor because the US was continually sanctioning them. In my opinion that's a good response- When some rich country steps in to "save the day" like US its good when it gets a shack from a nation they thought were useless.
Example: A bully keeps annoying and poking some won else in till they hit the bully. The bullies honer is struck so he goes onto killing the Person. US-Japan in ww2
Bombing japan in 1945 Reason 2
As i have briefly mentioned The other reason was to show off there strength and promote the image that America was not a nation to be messed with.
SO a) pride b) honer = over 1millon Japanese civilians dead.
and of course the nuking the real reasons for them were as above as well. But why did America decide that killing 100ds of Japanese every day was not enough and they would instead kill 1000s?
a) To show (as above) that if you mess with a superpower you get destroyed.
b) to try and scare the Soviet Union by showing them they have Nukes
and c) the most important reason of all- The Soviets had swept through Europe and were now sweeping threw Japanese land at a speed far faster than the US. If the Soviets took Berlin and Tokyo the Americans would no look like the world saviors they made it out they were. POINT- they wanted the Glory
and to finish off i will just disprove something- the bombs were NOT to save American, or wait for it.. Japanese life's because:
- Japan wanted to surrender before the bombs hit
- The soviets would have done he Job for them
- Japan posed no threat so there was no need for them to quickly surrender anyway!
Please argue away.
With pleasure my good man.
Contention 1: It saved Lives
During World War 2, Japan was in national suicide mode to the point that when the US would invade Japan it would have taken over 1 million Americans to do so making the war last a lot longer than it did. (https://thoughtsonmilitaryhistory.wordpress.com...) With Japan in national suicide mode they have proved at the battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa that they would kill until either they achieved victory or all the Japanese were dead. (http://www.bbc.co.uk...) The Japanese were so intimidated by the US that they threw their own children into the ocean and then themselves committed suicide than rather being captured by the Americans.
We can see here that the Japanese would have fought to the last man in Japan and the island of Japan would have been a desolate waste land. It has been estimated that in the early hours of the invasion that the Japanese would take 1,000 causalities per hour. (http://www.kilroywashere.org...) The Japanese were also training their children during recess at this time to carry bombs on them and that when the Americans would come for Operation Downfall, to run under American tanks and blow themselves up. It is obvious here that we have saved Japanese lives.
Operation Downfall has had many estimates. Operation Olympic (invasion of southern Japan) has been estimated a lone would be 1.2 million US casualties. While only 267,000 deaths. (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...) Within the first month is was predicted about 31,000 US deaths alone. General Marshal estimated that the Japanese would suffer 10 million causalities.
After the 2 atom bombs, Japan still was not going to surrender as the Kyujo Incident occurred afterwards. This was when the Japanese military attempted to overthrow the Japanese Emperor in order to prevent him from surrendering. This Coups was stopped due to a US aerial bombing that day killed most of the Coup leaders and stopped the Coup from occurring. (http://en.wikipedia.org...)
We also tried to warn Japan as we dropped leaflets that were in Japanese that had warned the Japanese of such an attack, but they ignored it.( http://www.authentichistory.com...) Also imagine if the US told the Japanese government that, "Hey look at the Tokyo bay and we'll drop our new super awesome weapon." We drop it and nothing happens. This would only make the Japanese fight harder as they would be calling our bluff
On August 7th, one day after the bombing on Hiroshima, the Japanese cabinet meet and even though Emperor Hirohito wanted the war to end the cabinet stood at disagreement with a 3-3 debate lock and they missed 3 key military leaders for the okay for the surrender. The military leaders disagreed that the bomb was of atomic nature and didn’t want to consider surrender. Emperor Hirohito conjured up another emergency meeting on the 9th of August and they agreed that the Americans didn’t have the ability to create another atomic bomb, and then Nagasaki happened. Emperor Hirohito then made a surprise appearance and broke the 3-3 tie since it required an animous decision for surrender. Hirohito said this to the cabinet:
“I have given serious thought to the situation prevailing at home and abroad and have concluded that continuing the war can only mean destruction for the nation and prolongation of bloodshed and cruelty in the world. I cannot bear to see my innocent people suffer any longer.”
As you can see that the atomic bombs caused the Japanese Emperor to act and urge the cabinet for surrender and if it wasn’t for the atomic bombings the Japanese would not have surrender without the speech and forced second meeting called by Emperor Hirohito. In the 1947 edition of Harper’s, former Secretary of War Stimson had seemingly changed his views on the bombings then what Con has stated when he stated:
“All the evidence I have seen indicates that the controlling factor in the final Japanese decision to accept our terms of surrender was the atomic bomb.”
On June 1st the US Scientific Panel wrote the following:
“Mr. Byrnes recommended, and the Committee agreed, that the Secretary of War should be advised that, while recognizing that the final selection of the target was essentially a military decision, the present view of the Committee was that the bomb should be used against Japan as soon as possible; that it be used on a war plant surrounded by workers’ homes; and that it be used without prior warning.”
Contention 2: The Cold War
It is known that we were developing the atomic bomb in the Manhattan Project to the point where it took $2 billion to complete. Let's look at some interesting stats. For one second let's imagine the US did not use the bomb, but still the won the war. We had the atomic bomb and so did Russia. The Cold War began and due to the fact that we did not know what the bomb did we would have been more likely to use it on Russia or another communist satellite state during the Cold War causing Nuclear War.
Today nuclear weapons are stronger than they are back then and we currently have Neutron Bombs, which military leaders prefer, because its radiation penetrates even the deepest bunkers, but it comes with a price. Dr. Chalko has found that the radiation penetration from the neutron bombs will cause the Earth’s Interior to increase temperature substantially, increase volcanic activity, and even in the most extreme chances it may cause the world to explode. (http://sci-e-research.com...)
Contention 3: Japanese War Crimes.
Many people tend to look at Japan with sympathy after the Atomic Bombings, but they do not remember all of the horrible things that the Japanese did. They had violated several international treaties like the Briand-Kellogg Pact by invading Japan. They have also forced anywhere from 4-10 million people to work for the Japanese military. We all know that NAZI Germany killed 6 million Jews along with 30 million Russians, but what are the Japanese numbers you may ask? They killed a total of 30 million Asians (excluding Chinese) and they killed 23 million Chinese. (http://www.lrb.co.uk...) They have also violated the 1907 Hague Convention which outlawed the attacking of neutral states during wartime by their attack on the United States. The Japanese have also done torturing to the POWs, Japanese Army Office Uno Shintaro who served in China during the War said this on torture:
“The major means of getting intelligence was to extract information by interrogating prisoners. Torture was an unavoidable necessity. Murdering and burying them follows naturally. You do it so you won't be found out. I believed and acted this way because I was convinced of what I was doing. We carried out our duty as instructed by our masters. We did it for the sake of our country. From our filial obligation to our ancestors. On the battlefield, we never really considered the Chinese humans. When you're winning, the losers look really miserable. We concluded that the Yamato race [i.e., Japanese] was superior.” (Haruko Taya Cook & Theodore F. Cook, Japan at War 1993 ISBN 1-56584-039-9, p. 153)
Out of the many Massacres and atrocities that the Japanese committed the Rape of Nanking (also known as the Nanking Massacre) where over 300,000 people were killed and the women were raped. (http://en.wikipedia.org...) They also had a contest of who could kill 100 Chinese by sword contest which drove the death toll up even more and not to mention that they would play caught the baby with their Baqunents.
Caption reads: "Incredible Record' (in the Contest to Cut Down 100 People) —Mukai 106 – 105 Noda—Both 2nd Lieutenants Go Into Extra Innings."
It saved Lives
You are saying in this that if the nuclear bombs were not used Japan would have fought to till the end and never surrender committing suicide for there country- witch i agree is true as seen in the island hopping bu the US. but anyway there were other alternatives to an invasion since Japan was not a treat they could have just waited for them to starve using there blockade. Or let the Soviet Union attack for them because if the us cared about there men dieing so much they ave 2 alternatives.
The Americans did not care about Japanese life's since 100s of Japanese were dying every day due to unneeded bombing and the US nuked them. So if the soviets attacked no Americans would die and the Soviets would probably finish japan of in half a year due to there efficiency.
The number like 10millon Japanese deaths are over exaggerated maybe like 1million if the invasion was swift. The Americans Truthfully would probably kill more like 10millon Japanese in there slow/extrema bombing. An invasion maybe have lost more lives but there are other alternatives.
Despite the USs need to test nuclear bombs on civilians i don't think they would have started ww3 just to test a bomb. I mean the US always makes it out that the USSR was evil but the USSR never tested there nuclear bombs on a civilian population to see its effects.
Japanese war crimes
I agree the Japanese were VERY brutal and a little evil. But that still does not give America the rights to nuke it. Japan committed all the atrocities to China and other south Pacific countries not the USA. If maybe China used the nuclear bomb it would be a BIT more justified.- I know America likes to make it out like they saved the day (as per usual) but the Soviets never nuked Berlin and the Nazis were fighting to the last man.
Conclusion: I agree with most of your points but i still think that the Americans were wrong doing it because there were better alternatives. Now a days America seas they done it to save lives but at the time there were other reasons (as stated in my above debate) i think.
as for the sources: Sorry but all that i have stated does not really need facts to back it up and i am not lying. I just see no need.
I do appologize. as I wish to only get my argument and points across. and I do know that we do not need sources, but it adds to the credability of what I am saying.
Contention 1: Unnecissary?
My opponent uses the argument of the Soviet intervention in the war lead to their surrender, but I bring up the Japanese Cabinent meeting. The second cabinent meeting was on August 8th, one day after the Soviet declaration of war. The cabinet was in an absolute deadlock through the meeting and it wasn't until the second atomic bombing and the emporer's intervention to come to an argeement on surrender. The Japanese Law stated that there must be a 100% agreeance for surrender. Even after Soviet intervention the Japanese didn't agree to it. Nor did they on August 7th. As for his statement on the Prime Minister that was only one man, I am not saying that all Japanese were against surrender. He was only 1 out of three cabinent members who voted for the Japanese surrender.
After the Potsdam Declaration Japan was preparing for the Invasion of Japan. In Hiroshima was the Headquarters of Field Marshal Hata, head of the 2nd General Army of Japan which housed over 400,000 troops along with the 59th Army, 5th Division, 224th Division, and the 3rd Anti-Aircraft Division. At the time of the bombing there was a total of 340,000 civilians in the city along with the troops stationed there. (Goldstein, Donald; Dillon, Katherine V; Wenger, J Michael (1995). Rain of Ruin: a Photographic History of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Washington, D.C.: Brassey's. ISBN 1-57488-033-0. OCLC 31969557) Hiroshima was also a logistics and supply base for the military. After the bombing the Japanese were not considering any type of surrender until the Russians entered the war, but the Minister of War Anami prepared to impose Martial Law over the Empire of Japan in order to prevent anyone from even attempting to surrender. (Goldstein, Donald; Dillon, Katherine V; Wenger, J Michael (1995). Rain of Ruin: a Photographic History of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Washington, D.C.: Brassey's page 288-289).
In Nagasaki there was approximately 10,000 soldiers in Nagasaki and the city was the largest seaport in southern Japan. This was because of the 90% of the population there, population of 263,000, was in war producing industries of ship building and munitions. The original target was cloud covered so the second target at Nagasaki was aimed for and was bombed. (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...) A choice to attack Nagasaki would be the equivalence of Pittsburg or even Detroit being bombed for that reason in order to knock out the industry and when a nation no longer has the means to make war they must end the war or face total annihilation. Much like during the early days of the United States when the military was disbanded the US was wide open for an attack until President Adams re-established the Army. When a nation has no defense it can easily prime another nation to take it over and in World War 2 the US stripping the Japanese of their war making ability would mean that the millions of lives primed for Operation Downfall would be saved on both sides. Before the war the one nation that the public wanted war with was the Japanese based on their massacres and destruction that they had commenced, not Germany.
People were unsure if the atomic bomb would actually work on Hiroshima which is one of the reason that the US didn't drop it into Tokyo Bay and watch the destruction, because the Trinity bomb had gone off with wires and hoases attatched all over. We had no idea if it would work and if we made the Japanese watch then the bomb doesn't work we can see that the Japanese would have had a major confidence boost.
Some claim that dropping the atom bomb on a Japanese military island would have had the same affect if they were to have dropped the bomb on a civilian target, but this is false when it came to their military as they viewed their own military as expendable were they really valued pilots, but when I gave you the example in an earlier round of Saipan where the Japanese fought to the last man and their women and children on the island committed suicide even though the Marines attempted to save them. The Japanese pride would have had them continued fighting even though they were completely dominated and this was from the European Nations allowing them a form of appeasement that rivaled that of only Hitler.
Contention 2: Cold War
When faced in the invasion of Japan the Operation Downfall the world population would have been devastated as the Japanese were primed to fight for every person and were consistent. Towards the end of the War the Japanese were strapping their children with bombs and teaching them during recess to crawl under American tanks and blow themselves up. This Operation would have also had been a Conquest since Japan would be a lifeless void when this commenced. It was predicted that in the early stages of the war that 1,000 Americans and Japanese would die every hour. The USSR would have been likely to invade northern Japan due to their interests there. You could have easily seen Japan divided today much like Germany was or even Korea is now. This adds to the Cold War theory that I have brought up last round and a US-Russian War in Japan could have been easily seen as the frontline battle ground of Capitalism vs. Communism. Japan would also be armed with Poison Gas and Bacterial Warfare. The War would be fought with a US Civil War strategy known as the Prairie Dog War. Which is when land is fought for yard by yard and is focused at the underground tactics of the Japanese, not to mention that the Japanese had mobilized its civilian population. (http://today.duke.edu...) You see the Japanese had mobilized their civilians and were thus considered combatants due to their readiness for war. So truly the US killed not one civilian until after the birth defects of modern day Japanese civilians. We can also see that by dropping the bomb we saved more lives then we cost.
First off, I would like to state that the US actually warned the Japanese of the atomic bombings before it happend as the USAF dropped over 65 million leaflets warning the peoples of Japan. (http://www.authentichistory.com...)
“We seemed suddenly to have become possessed of a merciful abridgement of the slaughter in the Far East… To bring the war to an end, to avoid indefinite butchery, to give peace to the world, to lay a healing hand upon its people by a manifestation of overwhelming power at the cost of a few explosions, seemed, after all our toils and perils, a miracle of deliverance.”
-Winston Churchill on the atomic bombing
“…We have used it to shorten the agony of war, in order to save thousands and thousands of Americans. We shall continue to use it until we completely destroy Japan’s capacity to make war. Only a Japanese surrender will stop us.”
- President Truman on using the bomb.
“For Americans, it is the dollar that is the moving spirit. They cannot win.”
-Italian Petty Officer in Japan before the dropping of the bomb.
“Despite the best that has been done by everyone, the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan’s advantage… In order to avoid further bloodshed, perhaps even the total extermination of human civilization, we shall have to endure the unendurable, to suffer the insufferable.”
- Emporer Hiroshito
We can see that the above quotes easily fit into this argument that the atomic bomb must have been dropped and with the quote by the Itialian Petty Office we can see that Japan wouldn't surrender, but it wasn't until afterwards that they were ready to accept the defeat and acknowledge that the War would bring nothing , but tradgedy.
I shortened it by a few thousand characters, so back to you.
biggest_pro_going forfeited this round.
All points extended.
Please vote Con.
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