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harrytruman
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The Contender
TheKryken
Con (against)
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The "one way to heaven" doctrine is wrong

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/10/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 313 times Debate No: 84810
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harrytruman

Pro

Elijah went to heaven also before Jesus ever existed,
Luke Chapter 16 verse 22 says;
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;"
Lazarus also went to heaven and he there is a group of Christians that believe that if someone never heard of Jesus before, no matter how good of a person they are, even babies, they are going to hell, well I am sorry to tell you this "the Christians", and I mean a specific doctrine, not all Christians here, but you are wrong, and I can prove it;
Genesis Chapter 5 verse 24 says;
"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
Enoch went to heaven, and this was before Jesus ever existed,
2nt Kings Chapter 2 verse 1 says:
"And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal."
was not a Christian or a Jew,
John Chapter 3 verse 16 says:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
So if you know Jesus, you are saved, it also says that he loved the world, not just the Christians; at first glance this seems as if it supports the other side of this debate, but if you actually read 1st John Chapter 4 verses 7 through 8:
"7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God. He that loves not knows not God; for God is love."
John"s definition of knowing god loves your brethren. So, if someone never heard of Jesus before, but he loves his brethren (keep in mind, the word for love here actually translates to charity, not romantic love), then he knows god (in other parts of the bible the word "knows" can imply romance, this is not one of them), and if they know god, they are saved, period.
Also, they try to say that babies who do not believe in Jesus are going to hell because they were "born in sin", well actually Ezekiel chapter 18 says:
"18 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
What mean ye that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, the fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, says the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinned, it shall die. But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbor"s wife, neither hath come near to a monstrous woman, And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, says the Lord God. If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbor"s wife, Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? He shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. Now, lo, if he beget a son, that sees all his father's sins which he hath done, and considers, and doeth not such like, That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbor"s wife, Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withheld the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment, That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. Yet say ye, why? Doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? Says the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turned away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, the way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; is not my way equal? Are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turned away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considered, and turned away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet says the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? Are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, say the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, says the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."
So it turns out that when the Jews tried to say that babies could be born in sin, god commanded them not to teach this anymore, so we were not "born in sin".
TheKryken

Con

I'll start with my argument for the 'One way to Heaven' doctrine, then move into some rebuttals. Note: I will not be arguing about whether or not babies are born in sin. For sake of space, I will be arguing that Jesus is, in fact, the only way to Heaven for those who have sinned - which, according to Romans 3:23 is "all" or "pas/pantes".


John 14:5-6 (KJV, since it is widely accepted)

"Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

That is extremely clear. The words of Jesus himself, calling himself the only way to the Father. To deny this is to make Jesus a liar. No one comes to the Father except by knowing the way - Jesus.


Acts 4:10-12

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."


There is no other name by which we must be saved. Romans 3:23 and Ephesians 2:2-3 confirm that all have sinned and that at one point we all walked among the children of disobedience. Therefore, all are in need of saving.


Ephesians 2:5-9

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are saved by grace through faith - not of ourselves, but of God. No one can get to Heaven by works - only by faith in Christ.


John 15:3-6

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Anyone who does not abide in Jesus is cast out and burned.

Rebuttals

"Elijah went to Heaven also before Jesus ever existed."

Jesus is eternal. This is a key element of the Trinity, which the majority of Christians believe in, but here is evidence.


John 1:1-2

"In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning."


Colossians 1:15-16

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Through Jesus all things were created. Therefore, he was present in the beginning, and pre-existed Enoch and Elijah.


As for the beggar in Luke:

Firstly, the story is a parable told by Jesus. It is not a literal recollection of events; it speaks about a rich man, who was not godly, being sent into Hades, and he sees Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom” or “ton kolpon Abraam” which is not the word for Heaven (ouranos- Strong’s 3772).


Clearly this story is not literal, and it does not even speak of Heaven.


Enoch directly encountered God. No one is saying that God Himself cannot divinely intervene and bring one specific person to Heaven. And the reason for Enoch being taken into Heaven is clear - he walked faithfully with God. This certainly does not mean that someone who doesn’t follow God can get to Heaven.


You said, "And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal."

was not a Christian or a Jew,


This is rather confusing. I assume you mean Elijah was not a Jew. You’ll have to provide arguments to back that up. His name was ‘Eliyyah’ - Yah is God (Strong’s 452). That’s a very Hebrew name. He also had personal encounters with God. This does not counter the idea that the only way to Heaven is to know God.


But more importantly, the ‘heaven’ here does not mean the Heaven where God is on the throne. It means the same as when Genesis records the heavens opening up to release the flood, or when it says God made the heavens and the earth. Elijah is taken up into the sky. This is clear, because Elijah could not have been taken permanently up to Heaven at this time. Several years after this event, Jehoram received a letter from Elijah in 2 Chronicles.


1 John is a letter written to believers who are well aware of God and Christ. The ‘loving one another’ John is speaking of is a result of knowing God’s love. Verse 11 says that “since God loved us, we also ought to love one another”. Verse 10 identifies God’s love as the act of sending Jesus to die, which ties in with John 3:16. God loves the world - for this reason, He gave his only Son that anyone who believes might be saved.


The point of this passage is that anyone who claims to love God, yet does not love their brothers, does not actually love God. Those who know God’s love, and love one another because of God’s love, are the ones who truly know God. You cannot love one another because of God’s love if you do not know God’s love; and God’s love is Christ, who was sent to die.
Debate Round No. 1
harrytruman

Pro

"I'll start with my argument for the 'One way to Heaven' doctrine, then move into some rebuttals. Note: I will not be arguing about whether or not babies are born in sin. For sake of space, I will be arguing that Jesus is, in fact, the only way to Heaven for those who have sinned - which, according to Romans 3:23 is "all" or "pas/pantes"."

Aslso I am not be arguing that there are "more than one way to heaven", just that the doctrine which I call the "one way to heaven doctrine" is wrong. So first I will clarify what exactly it is I am trying to prove wrong, the doctrine that I am trying to prove wrong is the doctrine that says:
"If someone is not a christian, even if they never had a chance to become one, is going to hell", I am going to prove wrong the notion that god would send someone to hell because of what is beyond their control.

"John 14:5-6 (KJV, since it is widely accepted)

"Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

That is extremely clear. The words of Jesus himself, calling himself the only way to the Father. To deny this is to make Jesus a liar. No one comes to the Father except by knowing the way - Jesus."

Well, what this makes clear is that we are saved by Jesus, not that someone must be sentient of this.

"Acts 4:10-12

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

again, what this makes clear is that we are saved by Jesus, not that someone must be sentient of this.

"There is no other name by which we must be saved. Romans 3:23 and Ephesians 2:2-3 confirm that all have sinned and that at one point we all walked among the children of disobedience. Therefore, all are in need of saving."

"Ephesians 2:5-9

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are saved by grace through faith - not of ourselves, but of God. No one can get to Heaven by works - only by faith in Christ."

Ob-course, commonsense shoulkd dictate that folowing every rule will not save you, but I did a little research and landed on a few things:
Leviticus 5: 10:
"And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him."
Are you seeing what I am seeing, what word is that?
Covered? no, concealed, no. Forgiven, hmm, that says something, now I don't know what doctrine it is that you have, but I for one do not believe that god is divided against himself.

Ezekiel 18:27-28:
"Again, when the wicked man turned away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considered, and turned away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die."

Again, I don't know what doctrine it is that you have, but I for one do not believe that god is divided against himself.
"John 15:3-6

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Anyone who does not abide in Jesus is cast out and burned."

Now that is out of character, I must have missed that part of the bible, because everything else said that jesuis was a pacifist.

"Elijah went to Heaven also before Jesus ever existed."

"Jesus is eternal. This is a key element of the Trinity, which the majority of Christians believe in, but here is evidence."

John 1:1-2

"In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

Colossians 1:15-16

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Through Jesus all things were created. Therefore, he was present in the beginning, and pre-existed Enoch and Elijah."

As for the beggar in Luke:

"Firstly, the story is a parable told by Jesus. It is not a literal recollection of events; it speaks about a rich man, who was not godly, being sent into Hades, and he sees Lazarus in "Abraham"s bosom" or "ton kolpon Abraam" which is not the word for Heaven (ouranos- Strong"s 3772)."

Actually no, the story of Lazarus is not a parable, unlike all of his parables, this gives a name : Lazarus, which means that it happened, it is, additionaly, a parable, as the rich man is not given a name.

'Clearly this story is not literal, and it does not even speak of Heaven."

No, it is literal

"Enoch directly encountered God. No one is saying that God Himself cannot divinely intervene and bring one specific person to Heaven. And the reason for Enoch being taken into Heaven is clear - he walked faithfully with God. This certainly does not mean that someone who doesn"t follow God can get to Heaven."

Did he know of Jesus, no, god, but not Jesus specifically, unless of course you would like to admit that anyone who knows god also knows Jesus by default. Is that beyond gods capability anyway, do you honestly beleive that god is somehow incapable of telling someone about himself, himself?

Jeremiah 32:37:
"Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?
Matthew 19:27:
"But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Luke 1:37:
"For nothing will be impossible with God."

Do you think that he needs a bunch of jerky "Christians" who sit around all day saying that people who don't know of Jesus are going to hell, and yet they sit around and not do anything about it!

"You said, "And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal."

was not a Christian or a Jew,"

This is rather confusing. I assume you mean Elijah was not a Jew. You"ll have to provide arguments to back that up. His name was "Eliyyah" - Yah is God (Strong"s 452). That"s a very Hebrew name. He also had personal encounters with God. This does not counter the idea that the only way to Heaven is to know God."

I didn't say that he was not a jew.

"But more importantly, the "heaven" here does not mean the Heaven where God is on the throne. It means the same as when Genesis records the heavens opening up to release the flood, or when it says God made the heavens and the earth. Elijah is taken up into the sky. This is clear, because Elijah could not have been taken permanently up to Heaven at this time. Several years after this event, Jehoram received a letter from Elijah in 2 Chronicles."

No he didn't.

"1 John is a letter written to believers who are well aware of God and Christ. The "loving one another" John is speaking of is a result of knowing God"s love. Verse 11 says that "since God loved us, we also ought to love one another". Verse 10 identifies God"s love as the act of sending Jesus to die, which ties in with John 3:16. God loves the world - for this reason, He gave his only Son that anyone who believes might be saved."

"The point of this passage is that anyone who claims to love God, yet does not love their brothers, does not actually love God. Those who know God"s love, and love one another because of God"s love, are the ones who truly know God. You cannot love one another because of God"s love if you do not know God"s love; and God"s love is Christ, who was sent to die."
It doesn't matter, it means what it says, youy love onme another you know god, you know god you know jesus, and if you know jesus, you are saved, the end.
TheKryken

Con

It doesn’t really matter what you call the doctrine. The doctrine says that Jesus is the one way to Heaven, because that’s what Jesus says he is. The result of this is that those who do not know the Way are not saved. More on this at the end.


“Well, what this makes clear is that we are saved by Jesus, not that someone must be sentient of this.”


If you do not know the Way, the Truth, and the Life, you cannot follow the Way, know the Truth, or have the Life. Jesus confirms that those who believe in him will live in John 11:25-26 (KJV) “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

Romans 10:9 clearly outlines how one may be saved from the death all deserve.

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

John 20:21 explains why John’s gospel is written - so that people may believe, and that through belief they may have life.

“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

You say:

“Ob-course, commonsense shoulkd dictate that folowing every rule will not save you, but I did a little research and landed on a few things:

Leviticus 5: 10: "And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him."

Are you seeing what I am seeing, what word is that?

Covered? no, concealed, no. Forgiven, hmm, that says something, now I don't know what doctrine it is that you have, but I for one do not believe that god is divided against himself.”

This.. makes no sense. I have no idea what you are trying to show. The verse says that, under the Old Covenant, those who provided burnt offerings to the Lord could have their sins forgiven. Jesus became the perfect sacrifice to permanently forgive our sins. The passage says nothing about those who are not part of the Israelite nation, or those who do not follow the Lord and offer burnt sacrifices.

You did not counter my “grace by faith” argument at all. It still remains - grace through faith is the method of salvation. I have no idea what you mean by “god is divided against himself”.

Now that is out of character, I must have missed that part of the bible, because everything else said that jesuis was a pacifist.

Well, I quoted the scripture word for word. Sorry you missed it - maybe read it again. “jesuis” may have been a pacifist, but Jesus literally said he did not come to bring peace.

Matthew 10:34

“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

About the parable of the beggar (Lazarus) and the rich man, you say, Actually no, the story of Lazarus is not a parable, unlike all of his parables, this gives a name : Lazarus, which means that it happened, it is, additionaly, a parable, as the rich man is not given a name.

You claim that is both not a parable and that it is a parable. You then say that it is literal. You literally believe that there was a rich man in Hell who looked up to Heaven, saw a beggar (among all the people that would theoretically be in Heaven) next to Abraham, then spoke to Abraham, from Hell to Heaven? Simply because Jesus has a name in his story does not mean that the story is literal. Nor have you addressed the fact that “Abraham’s bosom” is not Heaven.

“Is that beyond gods capability anyway,”

You quoted me. In that quote I said that God Himself can divinely intervene and bring one person to Heaven. Moreover, Enoch lived in the OT. Thankfully, we do not. God has fulfilled the Old Covenant, so that we do not have to be Israelites to be saved. Anyone who believes may be saved, despite the fact that humans have all sinned, and fall short of His glory.

"Do you think that he needs a bunch of jerky "Christians" who sit around all day saying that people who don't know of Jesus are going to hell, and yet they sit around and not do anything about it!"

No, God doesn’t need them. What Jesus does say to do is “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). Why would Jesus command this if He was planning to just save the unbelievers anyways?


I didn't say that he was not a jew.

In Round 1, you have a random statement, Was not a Christian or a Jew”.

About Jehoram receiving a letter from Elijah, you say, No he didn't.”

Jehoram received a letter from Elijah. That is a true statement. You denying it means nothing.

2 Chronicles 21:12

“And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,”

So no, Elijah was not taken into the Heaven where God is on the throne, because Elijah later wrote a letter. Heaven, in this case, means sky.

“It doesn't matter, it means what it says, youy love onme another you know god, you know god you know jesus, and if you know jesus, you are saved, the end.”

If you know God, you will love others. If you read the whole passage, that is what it says. If you know of God, yet do not love others, then you do not truly know God. The demons know Jesus as well. Are they saved? No, because they do not proclaim that He is Lord.

Summary

All of my arguments remain. Jesus calls himself the Way. Salvation is only in his name. We are saved by grace through faith. If we do not abide in the Vine, we are cast out. The beggar in Luke has no relevance to the debate. God Himself may divinely intervene to take one person in all of history to Heaven (Enoch) but that does not change the fact that those who don’t know God/Christ are not saved. And if we know God, we will love one another. If we claim to know God, but do not love, then we do not know God.

A look at the justice of the doctrine

From a human perspective, the ‘one way’ idea may seem unfair or depressing. However, it is just the opposite. Everyone has sinned, and deserves death. God is holy and blameless, and cannot tolerate sin. Yet despite this, His love is so great that He sent us the Way, the Truth, and the Life so that we may believe his name and be saved.

Debate Round No. 2
harrytruman

Pro

1.God will not send someone to hell because they never heard of Jesus.
Ezekiel 3:18:
"When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand."
Ezekiel 33:6:
"But if the watchman sees the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand."
According to God, the blame for someone not repenting, if they are not warned to, is on the hands of the person who was told to tell them, but did not, which is in this case the Christians who were told to spread the good news, so God will not judge them, he will judge the Christians who can go out to Africa and Asia, and would have told those people if they had gone, but did not. Additionally, the pastors who teach this message are also accountable, because the vast majority of Christians never heard about Jesus the messiah; the son of god, they only heard about Jesus the chauvinistic Jerk, who is not the messiah.
2.There is a way to be saved aside from Jesus.
God allowed a way for sins to be forgiven aside from Jesus in the Old Testament, do you believe that it is beyond his capability now, do you believe that he would decide that way for salvation then, but change his mind now, or is he the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Do you believe that it is beyond his capability to save them?
Matthew 19:26:
"And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Genesis 18:14:
"Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son."
3.God wants all to be saved,
2nd Peter 3:9:
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
That is his purpose,
Job 42:1-2:
"Then Job answered the LORD and said, "I know that you can do all things, And that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."
So if God has a purpose of his, being that all should be saved, and no purpose of his can be thwarted, don't you think he will make it so?
4.God provided a way for forgiveness in the Old Testament,
Leviticus 5:10:
"And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him."
5.3. God provided a way for forgiveness in the Old Testament,
Leviticus 5:10:
"And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him."
And no one, not even God, can reverse what he said,
Isaiah 43:13:
"Even from eternity I am He, and there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"
And if he can, then how is Jesus being the only way to salvation any different from the way to salvation provided previously? Either this way is closed, in which case God can amend the ways he provides, in which case he can allow people to be saved aside from Jesus, or he cannot, in which case this way is still open,
Leviticus 2: 1:
"When anyone offers a grain offering to the LORD, his offering shall be of fine flour. And he shall pour oil on it, and put frankincense on it."
Offering wheat to God can also atone for sins,
Matthew 25:40:
"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
So giving wheat to the poor is just as good as giving it to God, which can atone for a sin, so if someone feeds the poor, they are saved.
6.The name of Jesus cannot save you,
The name of Jesus is just a name, and his name was not even Jesus, it was Joshua. Do you have any idea how many Joshua's there are? So it would follow logically, that because the Sikhists (East Indian Monotheists) believe in God and the son of God, they are saved, even if they do not know his name being Jesus, because it is not the name that saves you. The name Joshua is just a name, it is Jesus, God, himself, that saves you, the Sikhists God displays all attributes of our God, he is a God of love, he is love as a matter of fact, they believe in his son also, they just do not refer to him as Jesus. Also, the Sikhists belief in God and his son makes them saved,
1st John 4:15-16:
"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God."
My point being, God does not need Christians to spread the message, he can do it himself can he not? He obviously told the Sikhists about his son and himself, I see no reason why he can"t, is anything too hard for the Lord?
Jeremiah 32:27:
"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for me?"
The answer is no, nothing is too hard for the lord.
7.It is knowing God that saves you,
John 3:16:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
So whoever knows Jesus, God, is saved,
1st john 4:7-8:
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God. He that loves not knows not God; for God is love."
Also, 1st John 4:16 says:
"And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God and God in him."
Which means that they are saved, how can God dwell in you and you not be saved
TheKryken

Con

1. Ezekiel 3:18 and 33:6 both say that the unwarned men will die in their iniquity. Thank you for further proving my point. Whether or not Christians are to blame doesn’t matter in this debate; only that there is one way to Heaven, whether or not someone knows it.


2. God clearly establishes a new covenant. This is not Him changing His mind; He first mentions sending Jesus in Genesis 3:16.

Hebrews 8:6

“But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

God removed the old system of animal sacrifice for atonement and replaced it with Jesus, the perfect sacrifice. You still cannot, and will never, refute Jesus statement “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.

I do not believe that it is beyond God’s capacity to save the lost. He sent Jesus.

3. God wants all to be saved. However, all have sinned and fallen short. No man is without excuse. He is a holy, perfect God. Psalm 5:5-6 says that He hates those who are wicked.

“The arrogant cannot stand in your presence.

You hate all who do wrong; you destroy those who tell lies.

The bloodthirsty and deceitful you, Lord, detest.”

He loves His creation. However, He cannot abide sin. That is why, out of love, He sent Jesus, our Redeemer - so that he could be our only way to Heaven, that we may be saved through faith (John 3:16, Romans 10:9, John 20:21, John 11:25-26, John 14:5-6, Acts 4:12, Ephesians 2:5-9, John 15:3-6). I have already provided all of those verses, so scroll up if you “missed that part of the bible” again.

No purpose of God can be thwarted. His desire is that all should come to repentance. His purpose is not that all should enter Heaven, whether or not they repented. Would you not agree that God also desired that Adam and Eve would never sin? Yet they ate the fruit.

4. God provided a way for forgiveness in the OT. This is true. Then he sent Jesus, as the fulfilment of the law. Matthew 5:17

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”

You said it yourself, God can do anything. This means that He can, and did, amend the ways He provides. He did this by sending Jesus - the Way. That does not mean that He did so again, and simply lets everyone into Heaven.

5. Leviticus 2 just says that someone can offer grain to the Lord. It does not say that it will atone for sins - moreover, Christ fulfilled the law, so that we don’t need to sacrifice our firstborn lambs. Your argument for giving wheat equaling salvation is highly illogical and unbiblical. You connect two random verses, give them both meanings that do not exist, then come to a conclusion based on your imaginary meanings.

6. You say, “The name of Jesus cannot save you. It is just a name.” This… is… what? Have you been reading this debate? Or the Bible? Acts 4:12. Scroll up. Also Philippians 2:9-11:

“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

You then say that somehow, it follows logically that Sikhists are saved. I do not what this logic is following from, except for you completely ignoring all the scriptures I have provided.

It does not even matter, because your argument for them being saved is that they believe in the son of God - who is the only way to Heaven.

7. It is not simply “knowing” God that saves you. John 3:16 specifically says ‘believes’. The demons know Jesus. They are not saved.

I already refuted your interpretation of 1st John. Because God loves us and sent Jesus, we should love one another. If we do this, then God dwells in us. Those who do not know God or Jesus cannot love one another based on God’s love for them.

1st John 4:9-12

"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Summary

Once again, all my arguments remain. You said nothing about Jesus being the vine, and anyone who is not part of the vine is cut out. You did not address Jesus being the Way. You did not address the grace by faith argument. A litany of verses stand against you. I already quoted most of them, but I’ll note them again.

John 14:5-6, Acts 4:10-12, Ephesians 2:5-9, John 15:3-6, Romans 10:9, John 20:21, John 11:25-26, John 3:16.
Debate Round No. 3
harrytruman

Pro

You know amigo, it is doctrines like this that make me wonder why I am a christian, then I say "hey, that isn't in the bible", well, from how you are describing Jesus, he sounds a lot different from the Jesus I read about when I read the New Testament, the Jesus you describe is a God that hates people from other religions, may-haps you were referring to- this god?
Unholy Qur'an 2:24:
"And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones."
Unholy Qur'an 39:
But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.
Unholy Qur'an 2:90:
Evil is that for which they sell their souls: that they should disbelieve in that which Allah hath revealed, grudging that Allah should reveal of His bounty unto whom He will of His slaves. They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom.
Maybe you and Christians like you should convert to Islam, you would like their doctrines.
TheKryken

Con

I guess there is no real argument to make in this round.

It’s not “the Jesus I describe”. It’s the Jesus the Bible describes. All my descriptions of Jesus are quoted directly from the Bible. As a Christian, I believe what the Bible says.


What the Bible says is that God loves everyone. Yet, Adam and Eve rebelled, ate the fruit, and became sinful. Despite this rebellion, God still loved everyone, so He sent His only Son to die, so that people didn’t have to work for salvation (as they do in Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc). Nothing I said indicated that Jesus hates people from other religions. Everything I said indicated that Jesus desires everyone to be part of the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Resurrection, the Vine, and the flock of the Good Shepherd, so that they can know the love of God.

I hope you are Christian because you have felt the Holy Spirit working in your life. I hope you are Christian because God calls us to love one another. I hope you are Christian because you know the truth.

I hope you don’t fall away from faith simply because so many others have. I hope you don’t fall away just because you see so many hypocrites. The hypocrites who preach lies are not our example, nor are they Christians. Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, our loving God and Savior.

I hope you don’t just believe what you want to hear, but you really search for truth.

I wish Hell didn’t exist. I wish God was a ‘cosmic vending machine’ who gave me whatever I wanted. I wish He brought everyone to Heaven, no matter what they’ve done, what they believe, or what the condition of their heart is.

But I know truth. And because I know truth, I aim to spread that truth, so that others may also know the Truth and be saved.

You can’t deny that what I’ve said so far in this debate is in the Bible. Well, you can, but you’d be wrong, because I quoted it directly from the Bible. Do I like everything that is in the Bible? No. Do I believe everything that is in the Bible? Yes.

Good luck to you. It seems the real debate is over. At this point, all my argument remain, and you have introduced no rebuttal or argument in this round.
Debate Round No. 4
harrytruman

Pro

Alright amigo, let's look at a few incidences where Jesus said someone is saved,
Luke 19:8-9:
"But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount. Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham."

What did Zacchaeus do to be saved?
He gave half his possessions to the poor, and played back four times what he ripped people off of, so that is one way to be saved, also it does not say, "meh, I'm gonna save you Zaccheaus", but "salvation has came to access especially house", as in, he earned it.

Luke 23:42-43:
"And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom! And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

There is your other way, ask Jesus to remember you,

I too, am a Christian who believes the bible, unless it says something ridiculous, anyway, that is what it says amigo, and these are in the new testament, you see in Leviticus 5:10:

"The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven."

Hmm, forgiven, as in like, forgiven, hmm, oh, but God reversed this- oh, wait,
Isaiah 43:13:
"Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"

No one!

And, no, the old testament is not out dated amigo, does God change, or is he the same today yesterday and tomorrow, if God does not change the old testament is still active and relevant.
TheKryken

Con

It’s amazing what the Bible can say when you don’t read it.

Luke 19:1-10

He entered Jericho and was passing through. And behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus. He was a chief tax collector and was rich. And he was seeking to see who Jesus was, but on account of the crowd he could not, because he was small in stature. So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was about to pass that way. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today.” So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully. And when they saw it, they all grumbled, “He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.” And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.” And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Why was Zacchaeus saved? He had a direct encounter with the Way, our Savior, and because of that, he changed his life. He was saved because salvation - Jesus - came to his house. Not because he gave money to the poor.


You continue to prove my point! The thief on the cross knew that only Jesus could save him, so he pleaded with the Christ to be saved. That is how we must be saved as well. He is the one and only Way. The thief knew it, Zacchaeus knew it, Paul knew it, Peter knew it, the disciples knew it, Jesus knew it, God knows it, and the early church knew it.


You say, I too, am a Christian who believes the bible, unless it says something ridiculous”. So you’ll cut out the parts you like, and ignore the parts you don’t like, and then claim those who don’t cherry pick their beliefs are the ones that are wrong.


God did not ‘reverse’ the animal sacrifice method. He fulfilled it and made it perfect in Christ, as I have already shown. And obviously, nothing is impossible with God, so He can reverse His decisions if He wants to. That is, in fact, what your entire case rests upon - God reversing His decision to make Jesus the only Way and adding other ways to Heaven.


If the OT is still relevant, then all of it is still relevant. Should we kill homosexuals (Leviticus 21:13) or not wear mixed fabrics (Deuteronomy 21:11)? Of course not! Because we don’t live under the OT anymore. God did not change - He fulfilled the old covenant with a better new covenant - Christ - as I have shown.


Vote Con:

All my arguments stand. Pro picked random verses he liked and ignored all my evidence by either saying it flat out didn’t exist, or that it wasn’t in the Bible, or that he simply didn’t like it. If you want, read this page about what Pro did: https://en.wikipedia.org.... I would also appreciate spelling and grammar points: Pro’s initial argument was unintelligible at points (Was not a Christian or a Jew), and it was often difficult to discern between his arguments, him quoting me, and him quoting the Bible.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by harrytruman 1 year ago
harrytruman
Cherry pick?? Hmm, you are indeed a hypocrite, first you say it is wrong to pick and choose what part to follow, then you say that you don't have to follow the old testament laws, I follow the TRUE GOD, whichever religion illustrates his personality the best is the one that I follow.
Posted by TheKryken 1 year ago
TheKryken
Should I rebut your arguments as well as make my own, or just make my own in Round 1?
Posted by NothingSpecial99 1 year ago
NothingSpecial99
Did you really have to not use spaces.
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