The Instigator
ulorp
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
TBR
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

The patriarchy cannot be eradicated while a capitalist system still exists

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
TBR
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/21/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,229 times Debate No: 70311
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (17)
Votes (1)

 

ulorp

Pro

Topic: A patriarchal society cannot be eradicated while a capitalist system still exists.

The pro will argue that: A patriarchal society cannot be eradicated while a capitalist system still exists.

The con will argue that: A patriarchal society can be eradicated while a capitalist system still exists.

Capitalism is defined as:
an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

Patriarchal Society is defined as:
A male-dominated power structure throughout organized society and in individual relationships.

Message me if you are interested in this debate.
TBR

Con

I accept the debate and definitions. I thank Pro for waiting, had to clear some other distractions before starting.
Debate Round No. 1
ulorp

Pro

The patriarchal society that exists today is a core part of the capitalist system. Capitalism ultimately is the exploitation of workers, especially women who often face a double burden of wage and domestic labor. The patriarchy is a manifestation of coercive hierarchy that does not value domestic labor. Due to this manifestation women are oppressed through systems of capitalism and private property. The liberation of women can only be achieved through the creation of a society based on free association which is incompatible with capitalism.

Capitalism is the foundation of the modern patriarchal society, and because of this the two are inseparable and the struggle against the patriarchy is ultimately a part of the overall class conflict. Class conflict, or the class struggle, is the tension that exists in society due to competing socio-economic interests and desires between people of different classes. The patriarchy has effectively created a class conflict between men and women, which the capitalist system plays a crucial role in perpetuating. Capitalism perpetuates this conflict through the dual exploitation of female labor, specifically the double burden of wage and domestic labor that women often face in the modern world. The capitalist system takes full advantage of this in order to keep down a woman's wages and her rights as an individual and as a worker.

The exploitation of women by the existing patriarchal society is seen in the struggle of the proletarian housewife. Her domestic labour is similar to wage exploitation but differs because a housewife cannot produce a surplus good and therefore does not produce anything of value in the capitalist system; that is, her work does not produce a profit. The proletarian housewife is responsible for producing the labor-power commodity but in a capitalist society her service is not valued, ensuring women's subordination in the patriarchy. As one socialist put it, "Of course, the proletarian woman often faces the double burden of wage and domestic labor. Capitalism takes full advantage of the ideology that woman"s "primary" role is in the home to keep down her wages and rights as a worker." Capitalism and the patriarchy work hand in hand to ensure the subordination of women by removing them "from a direct role in value production in a society where value is the end-all and be-all."

The question we are debating is whether or not the patriarchy can still be eradicated in capitalist society. Simply put, the patriarchy cannot continue to exist because the feminist struggle against the patriarchy is at its core part of the overall class conflict between the exploiters and the exploited. Just as capitalism necessarily exploits the workers, it necessarily exploits women as well, perpetuating the continued existence of the patriarchy.

Sources:
https://www.marxists.org...
TBR

Con


“Capitalism is an organized system to guarantee that greed becomes the primary force of our economic system" - Michael Moore


The patriarchal society exists within the capitalist society without question. Recognizing the existence of the issues is akin to recognition of global warming – you either accept reality, or contort realty to fit your internal wish. The relative degree to which one society is patriarchal to another is a reality as well.


While not entirely a fan of capitalism myself, when I first read the question my internal answer was “the two are unique onto themselves”. Then I had to do some honest thinking of the relationship between patriarchy and capitalism. Where they overlap and influence each other. What is the general status of patriarchy within capitalist and non-capitalist societies.


When we start to enumerate countries have achieved the best results in eliminating patriarchy and that intersect with the definition of “capitalist” provided by pro, it is Scandinavian countries leading the way. The “Nordic Model”, while Socialist politically are none the less free markets [1].


So if I accept that the best of countries, the ones with the best record in moving towards eliminating patriarchy, say Iceland [2] or Norway [3], are capitalist is there any relationship between the two? If there is any relationship, is it positive, negative, neutral? Well, capitalism by the definition given and in every resource I run across is unequal by design, but not necessarily unequal by gender. In other words, I start to loop back around to my first thought. The two are mutually exclusive. However, there’s more!


Capitalism unequally rewards based on a number of factors. Some factors are trite, but the one that leaps to mind is greed. With greed as a prime motivator, can we find a reason to connect capitalism and elimination of patriarchy? Well, intellectually sure! If greed overrides all, then I have no use for favoring one sex over another.


Motivated by greed, patriarchy CAN be eradicated while a capitalist system still exists.


Next up, patriarchy in the law and government.



[1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com...


[2] http://www.forbes.com...


[3] http://www.forbes.com...


Debate Round No. 2
ulorp

Pro

It is true that women have made considerable progress in many capitalist nations. Women do have many more opportunities and rights than they have had in the past. But having these new rights and opportunities, however, does not mean that the patriarchy has been completely eradicated. The issues of the patriarchy run far deeper in capitalist societies than equal wages and equal opportunities in jobs.

Women in Iceland and Norway undoubtedly have many opportunities and considerable economic equality. However, the fact that women have become increasingly powerful members of the bourgeoisie in these countries does not mean that the patriarchy is close to being eliminated. Claiming that the patriarchy is close to extinction because women have more power, such as in government jobs, and because women outnumber men in universities, for instance, ignores the plight of working class women. Working class women are the ones who have historically been the most disadvantaged by the patriarchy, as I detailed in round 2.

The main issue with capitalism and patriarchy is that the idea that women are the ones who take care of the children and the home, and this belief is deeply rooted in society. Even in Scandinavian countries like Denmark, women still face this burden. What is worse is that with all this capitalist progress for women in the workplace, women now face the double burden of working and taking care of children.(1) In this regard, capitalism still continues to perpetuate the patriarchy and impede its elimination, despite it appearing that women have made progress on the surface. How can a society where women face the burden of labor and childcare, two difficult and draining jobs, not be considered patriarchal?

It is hard to deny that bigotry and prejudice against women continue to exist, ideologically and culturally. Despite all the positive progress some women have made economically under capitalism, it is evident that the patriarchy still has a strong foothold in society as a result of many factors including cultural prejudices. Capitalism has not helped women achieve much progress in this regard. In fact, capitalism is the root of the cultural prejudice that holds women back. Because of women"s traditional role in childbearing, child care, and housework having no value in a capitalist system, prejudices have formed and continue to exist.

Capitalism and the patriarchy do in fact work together. The "progress" that women have made in many advanced capitalist nations does not indicate the elimination of the patriarchy. The patriarchy is rooted far too deeply in society for superficial progress such as wage equality and higher employment rates for women to mean that it is on the road to extinction. The patriarchy continues to exist in society through unrealistic expectations of women and strong social prejudices. Capitalism is the root cause of these issues, and therefore the patriarchy will continue to exist as long as capitalism also exists.

(1) http://www.marxist.com...
TBR

Con

“It is true that women have made considerable progress in many capitalist nations. Women do have many more opportunities and rights than they have had in the past. But having these new rights and opportunities, however, does not mean that the patriarchy has been completely eradicated. The issues of the patriarchy run far deeper in capitalist societies than equal wages and equal opportunities in jobs.
Women in Iceland and Norway undoubtedly have many opportunities and considerable economic equality. However, the fact that women have become increasingly powerful members of the bourgeoisie in these countries does not mean that the patriarchy is close to being eliminated. Claiming that the patriarchy is close to extinction because women have more power, such as in government jobs, and because women outnumber men in universities, for instance, ignores the plight of working class women. Working class women are the ones who have historically been the most disadvantaged by the patriarchy, as I detailed in round 2.”

I have not said before nor do I say now that patriarchy has been eliminated in capitalist countries, nor do I disagree that the issues run deeper than wage equality and job opportunity. I have said and shown that in the area of each issue, capitalist nations have achieved better results [1] vs. non capitalist nations [2] and show no reason why complete equality could NOT be reached with efforts [3]. I will discuss the challenges outside each economic issues in context below.


“The main issue with capitalism and patriarchy is that the idea that women are the ones who take care of the children and the home, and this belief is deeply rooted in society. Even in Scandinavian countries like Denmark, women still face this burden. What is worse is that with all this capitalist progress for women in the workplace, women now face the double burden of working and taking care of children.(1) In this regard, capitalism still continues to perpetuate the patriarchy and impede its elimination, despite it appearing that women have made progress on the surface. How can a society where women face the burden of labor and childcare, two difficult and draining jobs, not be considered patriarchal?"

Here again, it is the same list of countries leading the way in more equality in child rearing. To say “even in Scandinavian countries like Denmark, woman still face this burden” is not denied. Looking at any metric I can think to look at, it is the capitalist countries that are on a path to equality. One metric, maternity leave, Denmark has 52 weeks of maternity leave [4] with a slew of protections for mothers jobs. I had a hard time finding any non-capitalist countries with any protections, but this story on Cuba [5] has maternity leave at 12 weeks matching the US.

“It is hard to deny that bigotry and prejudice against women continue to exist, ideologically and culturally. Despite all the positive progress some women have made economically under capitalism, it is evident that the patriarchy still has a strong foothold in society as a result of many factors including cultural prejudices. Capitalism has not helped women achieve much progress in this regard. In fact, capitalism is the root of the cultural prejudice that holds women back. Because of women"s traditional role in childbearing, child care, and housework having no value in a capitalist system, prejudices have formed and continue to exist.”

The truth is, I would love to be able to prove your assertion about capitalism out. I’m not kidding. The problem is, you haven’t, and I expect it’s for the same reason I can’t prove it out. The cultural prejudices exist aside from the economic system of the country. It is also again true that the Capitalists countries that just happen to be the best at eliminating cultural bias. Is it because of the economic system, in spite of it? Whatever it is, the problem is not exasperated by capitalism.

“Capitalism and the patriarchy do in fact work together. The "progress" that women have made in many advanced capitalist nations does not indicate the elimination of the patriarchy. The patriarchy is rooted far too deeply in society for superficial progress such as wage equality and higher employment rates for women to mean that it is on the road to extinction. The patriarchy continues to exist in society through unrealistic expectations of women and strong social prejudices. Capitalism is the root cause of these issues, and therefore the patriarchy will continue to exist as long as capitalism also exists.”

The resolution is can patriarchy be eradicated in a capitalists system, not if it has. The connection you are trying to make is falling short partiality because of a part of the statement above. “The patriarchy is rooted far too deeply in society” I think the society that is envisioned could be great without capitalism, but it seems clear that it is not necessary for it to NOT be capitalistic.

[1] http://www.oecd.org...
[2] http://www.thenational.ae...
[3] http://www.gender.no...
[4] http://www.huffingtonpost.ca...
[5] http://www.medicc.org...
Debate Round No. 3
ulorp

Pro

My opponent has repeatedly argued that when it comes to eradicating this patriarchal society, capitalist nations achieve better results than non-capitalist states. My opponent notably used Cuba as an example of a non-capitalist nation doing very little to protect women, even though Cuba was ranked the 15th best place in the world for women(the United States was 23)[1]. While there are fewer non-capitalist countries, it is also important to note that Venezuela a very anti-capitalist nation enacted labor laws that saw the "working week reduced to 40 hours and maternity leave increased to 6.5 months".[1] Also, it is worth noting that when capitalist nations adopt socialist policies such as regulation of markets, labor laws, etc. conditions for women increase very positively.
Cultural prejudices exist because of economics systems. Economic systems particularly capitalism create inequality which results in development of prejudice between different groups. "Racism, like other forms of capitalist ideology, reflects the reality of social oppression and exploitation, but it inverts cause and effect. It is bourgeois not only in its historic origins, but also in its social function"providing a rationale for the misery, suffering and injustice which are an inevitable part of the free-market package." [3] Capitalism, and all other class divided societies create and nurture prejudice and racism. This is crucial in understanding why the liberation of women will not be achieved while a capitalist state exists. This is because capitalism causes a conflict between the exploited and the exploiters, capitalism is used as a tool to benefit the patriarchy. Capitalism cannot eliminate cultural bias and prejudice because capitalism created the class divisions the allow prejudice, exploitation, and racism to exist.
The feminist struggle against the patriarchy is an essential part of class struggle, and the only way for the patriarchy to be fully and effectively eradicated is through establishment of a society based on free association. Capitalism and free association are incompatible, as capitalism is inherently hierarchical and creates a struggle between those who are on top and those who are not. The feminist struggle against the patriarchy and the proletariat's struggle against the bourgeoisie are one and the same. It is true that capitalist nations can be reformed in some aspects to the benefit of the people but in reality the end of the class struggle, and the end of the patriarchy cannot be fully achieved while capitalism still exists.

[1]http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
[2]http://venezuelanalysis.com...
[3]http://www.bolshevik.org...
TBR

Con

I thank pro for a constructive debate - one I was unsure of my exact personal position on before starting. I was unsure of my position because I could not before the debate dismiss the notion that patriarchy exists within my own capitalist"s nation, and the internal prejudice to blame its existence on something tangible. The desire to connect one of societies troubling issues with its economic system, while an uncomfortable fit, had its appeals. What I found during my research was starker than I could have thought. Capitalism, with all its flaws, is either irrelevant or has a positive correlation.

Pro, for all the hard work, was trying to connect class struggle with patriarchy. The notion that the only way to eliminate, say the issue of equity in child rearing duty"s, was to live without economic competition " or perhaps the economic controlling force of the bourgeoisie. This is simply not proved out in pros debate. I truly wish it were proven. Knowing an exact cause to the problem would provide a roadmap to a resolution.

Pro, thanks again for the debate, and making me thing this through. I can answer this question with confidence now - The patriarchy CAN be eradicated while a capitalist system still exists. Vote con.
Debate Round No. 4
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mdmark 2 years ago
mdmark
Exactly what Toxifrost said. LOL ulorp please dont come to this website and start a feminazi war.
Posted by mdmark 2 years ago
mdmark
Exactly what Toxifrost said. LOL ulorp please dont come to this website and start a feminazi war.
Posted by Unitomic 2 years ago
Unitomic
I'll take the debate.
Posted by Toxifrost 2 years ago
Toxifrost
You just know that this is one of the tumblr feminists migrating to another site. It also seems like this person is part of the whole "lifting" community (If you don't know what it is just look up shoplifting on tumblr. Those people are literal scum.) who think they can destroy capitalism by stealing stuff. Seriously though these two concepts are so completely unrelated it's hard to try and connect them.
Posted by TBR 2 years ago
TBR
I might be willing to give this a go.

1) I am clearly NOT debating if patriarchy does exist.
2) Capitalist system (any country) not that ALL capitalist countries, right? Not the entire system of capitalism, just within any given country.
Posted by Zarroette 2 years ago
Zarroette
@Mister_Man

"Well I appreciate the kind words"

Not a problem =)

"I highly doubt a debate on whether or not the patriarchy exists would get very far"

True. That's because feminism isn't, ultimately, about logic and statistics, it's rather about feeling good and right.

"men have better jobs, therefore patriarchy."

Mmmm you could easily thrash the feminists that come out with this by declaring that this is an appeal to final consequence, which is a logical fallacy:

https://pseudoastro.wordpress.com...

Not that you don't intuitively understand this, but this just puts it in concrete, formal terms.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
Well I appreciate the kind words, just to clarify I did mean Canada & USA, and I highly doubt a debate on whether or not the patriarchy exists would get very far. Most of the time it ends with "men have better jobs, therefore patriarchy."
Posted by Zarroette 2 years ago
Zarroette
@Mister_Man

"Can I just join and argue that the patriarchy doesn't exist to begin with?"

Yes, you're right (in regards to America, but I'll assume you didn't mean countries like Saudi Arabia), but this agendered person changed the resolution from "The patriarchy...", to "A patriarchy..." with her opening round of resolution clarification. So, whether a patriarchy exists or not irrelevant to this clarified resolution, but your comment is very relevant to the title of this debate. Sneaky.
Posted by Zarroette 2 years ago
Zarroette
@Paradox420

"I said that it was "an easy win" for Pro, because I essentially hold his position, and consider it to be easily supported."

This is essentially an appeal to authority in form, if you can call yourself any kind of authority lol.

"The claim that "communism is mental masturbation" is also rather dubious"

Absolutely not. Anyone who has studied politics for a serious amount of time knows that Communism does not work in practice. Labour isn't valuable in itself. You can't get a doctor and a street-cleaner on the same wage because there is no incentive for anyone to work hard to become a doctor (outside of the odd person who would work that hard purely for the joy of it, which is not most people). These Communistic ideas are defunct and have been debunked numerous times.

Also, my point still stands: Capitalism has no in-built mechanisms that are sexist against women.
Posted by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
Can I just join and argue that the patriarchy doesn't exist to begin with?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Varrack 2 years ago
Varrack
ulorpTBRTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Good debate both of you. Since the BoP was not clarified, I must assume that it was solely on Pro. In order for Pro to win, he must affirm the resolution by proving that (1) the patriarchy has not been eradicated in capitalist countries and (2) capitalism promotes the patriarchal system. Pro did not sufficiently prove 1, and the closest he got to proving 2 was the statement "Economic systems particularly capitalism create inequality which results in development of prejudice between different groups." No example of this was used to back up this point, which means it could only be marked as an assertion. Pro needed to show exactly *how* capitalism leads to economic inequality which in turn leads to racial prejudices. Both sides made assumptions and dropped arguments, but because Pro didn't fulfill the BoP to my satisfaction then I vote Con.