The Instigator
Paradigm_Lost
Pro (for)
Winning
15 Points
The Contender
tiger.ess
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

The problem of incidental pride

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/21/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,013 times Debate No: 4128
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (6)

 

Paradigm_Lost

Pro

I am in favor of the notion that there is a specific kind of pride that I believe is less beneficial than it is beneficial. This specific pride is one of incidental pride. What do I mean by "incidental pride?" I call incidental pride the kind of pride one has for their race, gender, or sexual orientation. Why would I not view this positively? Its very simple: It tends to be more divisive than helpful.

For instance, lets look at racial pride. What about being incidentally born a certain race elicits pride? Nothing was accomplished. You simply exist. Generally people are proud about accomplishments, which is something not incidental, but earned through strenuous effort. As far as pride goes, this seems at least somewhat reasonable and rationally justifiable, though one could certainly make the argument that all pride is a problem. I might just be inclined to agree with those sentiments. But being proud of one's race has time and time again proved to be more divisive than beneficial.

Gay pride is no different. I understand the premise of gay pride, that it is because of the hardships endured by homosexuals. And these parades are a way of celebrating the shift in societies non-acceptance to acceptance. However, where does pride factor in to that, especially if the claim is that homosexuals were born with their predilections?

I therefore implore my prospective opponent, CON, to make a persuasive argument about why pride in incidental things like race, gender, or sexual orientation is more beneficial than it is divisive.
tiger.ess

Con

Pride is a showing of you not being afraid of yourself and what people think of you. Pride of your sexual orientation and other things is good, be proud of who and what you are. That is the way God made you and I take pride in all that I am.
If your the most famous singer in the world, i believe you are allowed to hav some pride do you not?
Debate Round No. 1
Paradigm_Lost

Pro

"Pride of your sexual orientation and other things is good, be proud of who and what you are."

So I should be proud that I am a heterosexual like 95% of the human population? I should wear t-shirts, "hetero and proud," so I gain all this attention?

See, pride tends to invariably do something that was not intended. Its pretentious. Its braggadocios. It often acts boisterous and feigns confidence to mask a very deep insecurity. A thinly-veiled disguise...

"If your the most famous singer in the world, i believe you are allowed to hav some pride do you not?"

Pride is our downfall as people. Let others be proud of us. Let them lift us up. Pride for the self is vanity, and vanity leadeth to destruction my friend. But at least a world-famous singer has two things: One is natural ability (incidental) and the other is hard training (intentional) in order to be hailed a great singer.

Should I believe in "white pride?" Should I be proud for having been born white, and obnoxiously walk around touting to everyone just how proud I am, even at the risk of alienating other people? Should I tout "brown pride" because I'm not ashamed of my mestizo heritage. Should I tout "black pride," heck, just to counter white pride? Should I happy that I was born a black man? Does it really matter if you were born any specific race?

What about gender? Should you be proud that you were born a woman, especially when the odds of you having developed either an double X chromosome or an Y chromosome was about 48% XY, 52% XX? I mean, any of us could have come out as a different sex. Would either of us had not accepted the fact that we were of the opposite sex? It wouldn't matter, and it certainly shouldn't elicit any kind of pride. Its all incidental.

Pride is junk. Pride is racism. Pride is sexism. Pride is vanity, and it leadeth to destruction. In essence, pride is nothing to be proud about.
tiger.ess

Con

"Pride is junk. Pride is racism. Pride is sexism. Pride is vanity, and it leadeth to destruction. In essence, pride is nothing to be proud about."

You are not a philosopher so do not act like one.

What about parents being proud of their children? You are saying that all pride is wrong and yet, parents are taught to be proud of their family and children...
Debate Round No. 2
Paradigm_Lost

Pro

"You are not a philosopher so do not act like one."

Attack the position, not the person.

"What about parents being proud of their children? You are saying that all pride is wrong and yet, parents are taught to be proud of their family and children."

If you'd like to go back and read my second argument, I stated, "Let others be proud of us. Let them lift us up. Pride for the self is vanity, and vanity leadeth to destruction my friend."

I very clearly made this distinction, not that these simple declarations detract from my argument.

In closing I would like to reiterate why I feel that pride in incidental things, like race, gender, and sexual orientation is more divisive than beneficial.

Pride in race fosters racism.

Pride in gender fosters misogyny and man-hating.

Pride in sexual orientation fosters intolerance and separatism.

In essence, it masquerades as being genuine. Indeed it's intent is intended for good, it just ends up counter to what the intent was. It is a lot like Affirmative Action. AA was designed to level the playing field in order to get rid of racism in the workplace. But in the final analysis, Affirmative Action ended up being racist demagoguery itself. Incidental pride is no different in how its intended good ends up being the very antithesis. I understand that it's intent was for good, but that doesn't mean that it is good if other people are alienated by it.

Isn't it interesting that people that are the most prideful about their race just so happen to be racist?!?!? Do you really think that is a coincidence?

KKK, Neo-nazi's, black panthers, etc, are all very, very proud that they just so happened to be born their race. They had nothing to do with their own procreation and therefore nothing was accomplished. They simply existed. So why would that elicit any kind of pride in a person?

Would you proud that you are human, instead of a squirrel? It sounds silly, but to me it is just as silly to be "proud" of your race, your gender, or your sexual proclivities. And when people do spout rhetoric in defense of some incidental pride, all we see is a backlash. There is a backlash because it is offensive, exclusivist, and divisive.

Incidentally, incidental pride just so happens to paint with big strokes as well. It tends to include ALL within their little circle, and condemn ALL outside of that circle.

What good will it do my neighbor if I tell him that I'm proud to be Asian and he was a World War II veteran who's friends killed by Japanese at Pearl Harbor? What good will it do that veteran to tell the Japanese man that he is proud to be white when his family was killed by an atomic bomb blast Hiroshima? Are they somehow going to come together, while each remaining ignorantly "proud" of their races, and come to some sort of epiphany or resolution? No! All it is going to do is fan the flames of discord even more.

Let us say that there is a homosexual, and he is fed up at being stereotyped and segeragated because of his sexual orientation. But because of his pride, he becomes a co-conspirator in his own misery. What do I mean? People that don't want to be identified by their sexual preference often end up causing, at least in part, the very thing they wanted to avoid. They aren't the lawyer, they're the gay lawyer. They aren't the doctor, they're the gay doctor. These are not the constructs of overall society as nearly as it is the construct of the proud person who simply can't walk two feet without telling someone just how proud they are that they were born a certain way...

I therefore submit that incidental pride is nothing to be proud about. In fact, it just causes division, for these are where things like racism first take shape. Who can honestly deny that? Not you... And that's why if you have any common sense, you will vote PRO.
tiger.ess

Con

tiger.ess forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
Yep, great job Paradigm. I would have taken this simply to give you some challenge, even though I agree with you and you made a great case. Glad to see you didn't leave:)
Posted by Derek.Gunn 9 years ago
Derek.Gunn
Paradigm - you see it and put it all very clearly.
Well done.
Posted by KingYosef 9 years ago
KingYosef
I like the topic, I am surprised no one has taken it. I agree with you here, maybe to the extent that all pride is bad. I look forward to watching this debate.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by bipasha 9 years ago
bipasha
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Vote Placed by brittwaller 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Derek.Gunn 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by revleader5 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by electriqued 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by CP 9 years ago
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