The Instigator
Isap8
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
XStrikeX
Con (against)
Winning
13 Points

The public should have a say in what is taught at schools

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/26/2011 Category: Education
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,917 times Debate No: 14529
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (3)

 

Isap8

Pro

I the government state that the public should have a say in what is taught at school.
I define public as parents of school age children and define school as social studies classes and classes involving mention of ethnic background and/ country of origin
Children may be insulted for ethnic background by peers if anything should be misunderstood. A country such as Africa may be "labeled" for being poor thus causing others to find that a child from such ethnic background is in fact poor.

A child may feel insulted by the current curriculum. The current curriculum acts as if all other countries excluding than the US, Canada and Europe are 3rd world countries. I myself have been insulted by such curriculum due to the disrespect it has brought to my people. If we are to live in peace we should defend other countries rather than tell the new generation that these countries are in fact poor and bringing the world down as I have understood it.
XStrikeX

Con

Thanks, Isap8, for starting this debate.
I am on the Opposition, stating that the public should not have a say in what is taught at schools.
I accept all definitions the Proposition has presented.

Refutations

1. "Children may be insulted for ethnic background by peers if anything should be misunderstood. A country such as Africa may be "labeled" for being poor thus causing others to find that a child from such ethnic background is in fact poor."

Since when did schools ever teach kids to be racist? I don't recall learning that as I grew up. And actually, schools teach against what the Proposition has argued [1]. And regardless, even if they did, how would having the public decide on what they should learn make it any better?

2. "A child may feel insulted by the current curriculum. The current curriculum acts as if all other countries excluding than the US, Canada and Europe are 3rd world countries."

When was this racism ever observed in schools? There has been no evidence presented so far into this debate and as a result, this point should be ignored.

"If we are to live in peace we should defend other countries rather than tell the new generation that these countries are in fact poor and bringing the world down as I have understood it."

We're not in any wars, if I recall. That certainly means the current system works.
Furthermore, the fact of the matter is that some countries and poor and their economies are unstable.
Since when was the world "brought down" by teaching that countries are poor, may I ask?

Arguments

1. There is no possible, logical way to even set up a system where the public can decide on what to vote.
How are you going to achieve such a goal?
For example, many of our communities are mixed with Republicans and Democrats. Maybe the conservatives want their children to learn conservative views and the liberals want their kids to learn liberal views. What are you going to do then? Will you take a vote and go with the majority? Then the conservative kid will have to learn democratic values, or vice-versa. Our current system, where teachers and the government decide what is taught in schools, displays PRO's and CON's with both views/systems. It's perfectly fine and it works.

2. The general public is not as intelligent as government officials or teachers.
Why should we have the public, composed of high school graduates and drop-outs, be allowed to make decisions if they're more ignorant than the government or teachers? Obviously, you've got to be intelligent to get that position in government or to become a teacher, but not necessarily to be have a kid and be part of the public. For this reason, the public should not have a say in what is taught at a school.

I await the response.

1. http://www.a-to-z-of-manners-and-etiquette.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Isap8

Pro

Actually racism has been taught and accepted at my school and I have been personally critisized to to my country. I have in fact been allowed due to this notion to remove myself from all classes that may aggravate this sentiment.

"There is no logical way in which the public may decide"
That is not true. There is a possibility of online schools, of which are already used in this day and age, in which the child may be taught according to what is accepted by parents or guardians wether they are republicans or democrats.

"The public is not as intelligent as the government or teachers"
Are you in fact stating that for not being in the position of a governmental leader or a teacher we are in fact dumber than other those who are and that we are not able to make such choices for ourselves? By stating that you are in fact saying that both you and I are dumber than these people. We are all people with the same brain capacity and the same capability of choice.

By not allowing the public to have it's say we are then violating two freedoms
The right to security both physical and verbal may be threatened due to the comments that may be made after being taught something such as what is being currently taught in the grade 7 and 8 curriculums. It also violates the right not to be thrust upon cruel or unusual punishment which include humiliation that is also caused by such curriculum.

By not allowing a say in such curriculum you are also causing depression in the child who is being bullied for this which is taught in schools. A child may feel as if they are bad if their country is shown in such a manner. This has happened personally and to friends and peers. One of my peers committed suicide due to the stress caused by having to live with all the cruel insulting comments given off by other students on the topic of her country.

With these points I state that this resolution must and will stand.
XStrikeX

Con

Refutations

"Actually racism has been taught and accepted at my school and I have been personally critisized to to my country. I have in fact been allowed due to this notion to remove myself from all classes that may aggravate this sentiment."

I highly doubt that your 'school' teaches you to hate minorities, or others. Adding on to that, your source (yourself) is unreliable and therefore should be discredited. Unless you can actually bring in real hard-core evidence of racism being taught in schools, this point is moot. Here is an example of numerous people, including teachers, fighting racism [1].

" That is not true. There is a possibility of online schools, of which are already used in this day and age, in which the child may be taught according to what is accepted by parents or guardians wether they are republicans or democrats."

Since when was an online school run and managed by parents? Online courses are managed by universities and colleges, not the common parent.

"Are you in fact stating that for not being in the position of a governmental leader or a teacher we are in fact dumber than other those who are and that we are not able to make such choices for ourselves? By stating that you are in fact saying that both you and I are dumber than these people. We are all people with the same brain capacity and the same capability of choice."

Actually, I believe some of us are. Look at some homeless people on the street. Some of them may have been cheated out of their lives, but others cheated themselves out of their lives through careless spending, or through drug/alcohol abuse. These people are part of the public. But overall, when you look at it, how much of our society is truly smarter than a government leader? Very, very few. Government leaders run America. They know what we need to focus on and how we can improve our American education system. People of the public...? Not so much.

"The right to security both physical and verbal may be threatened due to the comments that may be made after being taught something such as what is being currently taught in the grade 7 and 8 curriculums."

I believe this is according to the racisim issue. Once again, racism is not yet a true part of this debate and should be ignored for this reason.
Furthermore, how many kids are going to have a discussion after a math or history class? If they are, it must be useful to have them partaking in an engaging conversation/debate.

"It also violates the right not to be thrust upon cruel or unusual punishment which include humiliation that is also caused by such curriculum."

I think you have the wrong idea about school. Schools teach kids things like math, science, writing, and history. They don't teach racism or anything negative like racism. What kind of a teacher will beat up on a student so dramatically that it's cruel and unusual punishment? Even so, how is humiliation a "cruel and unusual" punishment? We see it everyday of our lives on the news, online, everywhere! It's not cruel and unusual. Cruel and unusual is hanging someone, not poking fun at someone.

"By not allowing a say in such curriculum you are also causing depression in the child who is being bullied for this which is taught in schools. A child may feel as if they are bad if their country is shown in such a manner. This has happened personally and to friends and peers. One of my peers committed suicide due to the stress caused by having to live with all the cruel insulting comments given off by other students on the topic of her country."

My condolences for your unfortunate friend. Nonetheless, how was this the school's fault? The school was simply teaching about a country; it's very important to learn about the rest of the governments and people out there. It was that person's friends' fault. Don't blame the school. It's simply doing what it was supposed to do. Teach.

The resolution still stands. The burden of proof remains unanswered.

Sources:
1. http://www.ipcmedia.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Isap8

Pro

To round my rebuttal into one point I will say this. The teachers may not know it but what is taught is truly a racist effect. I do in fact have proof. On page 5 of my grade 7 geography and social studies textbook it states this "As a democratic country our country should help those con tries of which are not democratic such as Brazil, China and Israel." This started an uproar of hatred and insults brought towards me since I am in fact Brazilian. What was worse is that it was a lie. Brazil is in fact a democratic nation.
You also stated that schools done on the Internet are not chosen by parents. Many people I know got into Internet schools since their parents could control what was taught! The point of Internet schools is teaching things that are student appropriate such as things that don't discriminate a persons culture, religion, contry ect.
By stating that we are dumber than both teachers and governmental leaders is in fact heckling and in a formal debate you would lose points for that.
Also humiliation is a cruel and unusual punishment of which has been stated by the government of Canada. "cruel and unusual punishment is A phrase describing punishment, wether needed or not, that is set towards someone causing them humiliation or physical pain" is the definition of it in my glossary of my textbook (Social studies works 7 enriched.) thus proving my earlier point that in fact humiliation is a part of cruel and unusual punishment.
It is also evident that you misunderstood my point. I never said that it was the schools flat but that it was the curriculums fault. That was what caused her obsessed pain and aggravation. I do not have anything against teachers and do realize that they are not to blame but the educational system is to blame.
And students do partake in offensive speaking during class wether it is noticed or not.
Teachers also take no action against criticism or racism. If they had my friend may still be with me.
With these rebuttals and points restated I state that this resolution must and will stand.
XStrikeX

Con

Thanks for sticking to through the final round, Isap8.

Refutations

"I do in fact have proof. On page 5 of my grade 7 geography and social studies textbook it states this "As a democratic country our country should help those con tries of which are not democratic such as Brazil, China and Israel." This started an uproar of hatred and insults brought towards me since I am in fact Brazilian. What was worse is that it was a lie. Brazil is in fact a democratic nation."

Even though this "evidence" is extremely personal, I'll still argue against it. First off, this is not the school's fault. The school is simply teaching the curriculum it's supposed to teach. It's the students' fault for creating racist/prejudice comments, not the school. The school does not force-feed you racism; you do. Depending on the time this book was written, Brazil may not have been a democratic society at that specific period if time. And what this book said is totally true. We Americans who have democratic values should help liberate other societies of oppression, arguing directly against bad moral values. "We should help people," is basically what this book is saying.

"You also stated that schools done on the Internet are not chosen by parents. Many people I know got into Internet schools since their parents could control what was taught! The point of Internet schools is teaching things that are student appropriate such as things that don't discriminate a persons culture, religion, contry ect."

The point of online schools are actually for people who don't want to attend a university and don't want to leave their homes. They want an efficient and easy program that they can learn from their own houses so that they don't need to drive out early to colleges/universities. Online schools teach exactly the same thing normal schools teach.

"By stating that we are dumber than both teachers and governmental leaders is in fact heckling and in a formal debate you would lose points for that."

This is not a refutation to my argument. My argument stands. The average public is not smarter than government leaders or teachers and therefore should not be allowed to make decisions for the school curriculum.
Anyways, that's not a heckle, as far as I know. A heckle is a 3-word statement you use during an opponent's speech, at least in my school's program, that's what it is...

"Also humiliation is a cruel and unusual punishment of which has been stated by the government of Canada. "cruel and unusual punishment is A phrase describing punishment, wether needed or not, that is set towards someone causing them humiliation or physical pain" is the definition of it in my glossary of my textbook (Social studies works 7 enriched.) thus proving my earlier point that in fact humiliation is a part of cruel and unusual punishment."

Alright, that's acceptable. However, there has been no evidence presented concerning humiliation, racism, or prejudice throughout this entire debate. The point is moot.

"It is also evident that you misunderstood my point. I never said that it was the schools flat but that it was the curriculums fault. That was what caused her obsessed pain and aggravation. I do not have anything against teachers and do realize that they are not to blame but the educational system is to blame."

It is not in anyway the curriculum's fault. What children diagnosis from a lecture is their issue and their view, not the school's view. The school simply teaches; the children actually bring in the insults and humiliation.

"And students do partake in offensive speaking during class wether it is noticed or not.
Teachers also take no action against criticism or racism. If they had my friend may still be with me."

You're arguing for the curriculum, so how can you argue against what a teacher did or did not do? How would the teacher have known if racism was spreading around? It's the kids' own flawed insults and comments that killed your friend, not the teacher. Your friend could have asked the teacher for help and in turn, saved her life. The teacher could not have known the racism spreading around.
Your first statement is not yet a fact. It has no evidence. It is not an argument.

REASONS WHY THE OPPOSITION SHOULD WIN THIS DEBATE

1. The Opposition has effectively refuted all arguments of the Proposition. Therefore, the burden of proof is unanswered.
2. The Opposition has had superior spelling as well as grammar.
3. The Opposition's 2 arguments are still standing (No possible system and public is not as intelligent).
4. The Opposition has used credible, reliable sources... The Proposition has only provided personal experiences backed by no facts but one definition.

For these reasons, I state that this resolution is negated.
VOTE CON.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by AlexV 6 years ago
AlexV
I am in accordance with the Con.

A government and the collective of teachers, whether federal or local, should have the power to dictate the curriculum students are taught. Education is the deciding factor in the continued health of a nation, besides survival/defense of course. If the education of a certain sub-section of the population (say, for example, people from Texas) is radically different from the education in other areas (New York,) it cannot be guaranteed that the students will receive equal and quality education.

A recent decision by the Texas School Board to include religious teachings into history books is a perfect example.

http://www.guardian.co.uk...

Limiting the teaching of evolution, cutting down the space that figures like Thomas Jefferson (http://www.religiondispatches.org...)

These results stem from local control of what is taught in schools.
Posted by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
I agree with the resolution, but Pro didn't make the case. Pro argued that racism should not be taught in schools, and that if it is then parents should be able to change the curriculum or change schools. But if parents get to decide what is taught, then parents might decide that teaching racism is proper. That ought not be allowed because human rights ought not be over ruled by popular sentiment.

Similarly, political correctness ought not be taught, because it is not factual. Parents don't get to choose what they want presented as fact.

However, parents should have a say in the composition of the curriculum and how stiff the academic standards. If students are not taught the basics, if the standards are too low, or if time is wasted on politically-inspired subjects, parets should get to have a say. Pro didn't make that case.
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Vote Placed by K.GKevinGeary 5 years ago
K.GKevinGeary
Isap8XStrikeXTied
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RougeFox
Isap8XStrikeXTied
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Vote Placed by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
Isap8XStrikeXTied
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