The religion of the Old Testament is mind control
Debate Rounds (3)
The Israelites have been brutalized and sweet-talked for centuries. It is time for the few that are left to reject the offer of a cup of coffee after each beating.
I'd like to start by asserting that your two beginning statements are requiring some further clarification.
Referencing your first comment:
"The Pro position, (mine) is that the Torah is a mind altering drug".
A mind alternating drug is (generally) a chemical substance used for recreational purposes.
The Torah, on the other hand, is a 3000 year old religious text.
Additionally, your second assertion may need some more explanation:
"The Israelites have been brutalized and sweet-talked for centuries. It is time for the few that are left to reject the offer of a cup of coffee after each beating".
Which brutalities/ beatings are you alluding to?
The ambiguous nature of your statements does indeed leave one to wonder.
One of the most fundamental gifts of G-d is free will, and the use of this free will is something that is fully emphasized in the Old Testament (Jewish Torah). The premise of "mind control" is the domination of ones thoughts, and actions. Something that essentially leaves them powerless, and not in control of their own behaviour.
While the Old Testament encourages belief and recognition of G-d, it outlines that it is the individuals decision as to whether they chose to do that. The purpose is to convey to the message of G-d to His people, they can either accept or reject.
Concerning Judaism, people are not forced into the religion, and if they wish, they may leave. There is nothing to suggest indoctrination and/or mind control.
Here I'd like to provide some Old Testament verses:
-The Lord your G-d is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet
you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing. ( Zephaniah 3:17)
-I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness. ( Jeremiah 31:3)
-The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious G-d, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. (Ex 34:6-7)
-The Lord said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other g-ds." (Hos 3:1)
-For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men. (Lam 3:31-33)
-Who is a G-d like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. You will again have compassion on us; you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea. (Micah 7:18-19)
All of these are verses that are not in fact indicative of an unforgiving, spiteful G-d, but one that has mercy and the power to love and forgive through anything.
1) No one chooses to be born
2) No one chooses their parentage/heritage
3) No one chooses bodily functions
Therefore, human free will is extremely limited.
To quote Con, " Concerning Judaism, people are not forced into the religion, and if they wish, they may leave. There is nothing to suggest indoctrination and/or mind control."
So Con you are saying that no one has ever been forced into circumcision?
In other words babies have the free will to choose to be circumcised. And if they choose to be circumcised and then change their baby minds, they have the free will to undo the circumcision and their members go back to the way they were before the circumcision.
Con asks which brutalities:
Let's not make this too hard. We will work backwards. The Nazi concentration camps never made those People who took the beatings any better. And the Nazi concentration camps never made those People who gave the beatings any worse. In other words, the Deluge was/is totally void of meaning. The Deluge has no meaning.
As to dope:
When a person is under the influence of Opium the Opium is G-d. And when the addict is looking for the next fix, the addict is an atheist.
(1.) My point(s) on "free will" were to emphasize that every human being, once an adult, has the gift of choice on as to what they do with their lives, and how they live them. Just because one does not choose to be born , it does not mean they cannot choose how they respond to this world. The main ask of G-d is for one to exercise that free will responsibly.
Additionally, the same is said for parentage. Nature determines that we cannot choose our parents, but we are in control of our attitude towards those parents; and our surrounding environment.
(2.) "Are you saying that no one has ever been forced into circumcision?"
The word "forced" is being used very lightly here. The Brit Milah is a centuries old traditional Jewish practice, one of which that has biblical roots and significant religious meaning.
Every parent has the right (providing it corresponds with law) to make such decisions. Christian children are Christened, and Muslim children also have a number of practices.
It does not prevent this child from using their free will once an adult.
(3.) "Let's not make this too hard. We will work backwards. The Nazi concentration camps never made those People who took the beatings any better. And the Nazi concentration camps never made those People who gave the beatings any worse. In other words, the Deluge was/is totally void of meaning. The Deluge has no meaning."
The purpose of Nazi concentration camps was not to make people any better, whether morally or otherwise. However, these beatings/killings and other forms of horrific treatment that people took does make them into victims, as they were essentially powerless. In terms of moral standing, the Nazi officers who provided the beatings are made worse; simply because they were abusing the basic rights of these people, and committing offences that are technically crimes against humanity.
Nevertheless, your 3rd argument presents no relevance to Judaism or your resolution. It's connected to Jewish history, but not the religion itself.
2 Repeat stories
3 Give the human mind a party i.e. bar mitzvah, (seat the mind on a throne and begin to tell the human mind that it is the rightful ruler)
4 Frustrate the human mind
Point number 4 is the important part. How to frustrate the human mind without the human mind realizing who is actually doing the frustrating?
What one must understand is that all four points above are lies-
1 Judaism is not based on Circumcision
2 The repeated stories are either outright lies or explained in such a way that all truth contained in the stories is removed.
3 The Jewish people will never sit on any real throne.
4 Judaism itself is the root cause of all Jewish suffering throughout all of history since the founding of Judaism.
Now we need to know what Judaism is founded on. Judaism is founded on
D I V O R C E
And divorce is the most damaging thing that can happen to a child.
On the contrary to your given examples, it's more likely that this verse is alluding to the guidance of children and the additional help that is needed in their development; to ensure they take the right paths in life. No implication is made to circumcision, repetition of stories, Jewish celebrations, or frustration of the human mind. These are your own conclusions, based without proper interpretation.
You then go on to exclaim that all above points are lies, and change to a completely new argument (having offered to rebuttals for my previous one) but instead of actually disproving your old argument you simply create new unsupported statements. Due to this lack of support, I will continue with rebuttals.
(1.) "Judaism is not based on circumcision". Yes, this should be well-established.
Judaism is primarily based on the work that is the Old Testament, which is comprised of many different things.
(2.) "The repeated stories are either outright lies or explained in such a way that all truth contained in the stories is removed."
As with round two, you offer no explanation on as to what "outright lies" you are referring to. Nevertheless, I will say that Judaism does not practice removal of truth in stories, not does practice the removal of truth in them. Stories in Judaism have invariably remained the same throughout the years. Truth (particularly Biblical) is also something that is upheld.
(3.) "The Jewish people will never sit on any real throne".
You should define what exactly is a "real throne". Jewish people have throughout history been able to attain success, whether it be creating their own business, offering their skills to the art, literacy and medical fields, surviving mass genocides, establishing their own country, or simply following G-d.
(4.) "Judaism is the root cause of all Jewish suffering".
The root cause of all Jewish suffering is generally attributed to both racial and religious intolerance, particularly the former. To state that Judaism is responsible for ALL of it is completely unfounded, and unproven. The holocaust for example was mainly because of race; the fact that it was not just Jewish people killed is proof of that. Instead of inflicting suffering on the Jewish people, Judaism has kept them together; it has offered hope in times of need; it has given a country; and most of all it has given an identity to all Jewish people.
Blaming Judaism, is equal to blaming the Jews themselves.
(5.) "Now we need to know what Judaism is founded on. Judaism is founded on divorce".
Judaism is not founded on divorce, is founded on G-d. Overall divorce is not favoured nor is it encouraged. However, Judaism does maintain the outlook that if a man and a woman are very unhappy in their marriage, they should not remain unhappy and divorce should be permitted.
Such a law is proof of the fact that Judaism does not use "mind control", and that free will is exercised.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ameliamk1 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro initially failed to define his terms, which Con pointed out quite nicely. Pro then seemed to turn "mind control" into a lack of free will, which is comparable but far from identical. I wish con had saved us the bible verses, but he did respond in order and completely to Pro's tenuous points.
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