The Instigator
Akhenaten
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Peepette
Con (against)
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The school system of education is redundant

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/2/2015 Category: Education
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 742 times Debate No: 81927
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

Akhenaten

Pro

The school system of education is redundant and out of date. Since the invention of the video recorder and computer, education has not adopted these new technologies in an appropriate manner. Teachers are not really necessary any more. Once you record a subject on a video machine, it shouldn't be necessary for that subject matter to be repeated by millions of teachers all around the world on a daily basis.
Peepette

Con

I accept this debate and look forward to the exchange.

--"The school system of education is redundant and out of date."--

I will reword your title statement for clarity then you can agree or disagree if the new statement expresses your intent. If so, we can start from this point.

* The educational process in schools today has become a system of redundancies and is out of date.

-- Since the invention of the video recorder and computer, education has not adopted these new technologies in an appropriate manner.""

Technology in the classroom is used as a tool to supplement the curriculum. It is not meant to replace actual teaching methods.

In your view, what would be an appropriate manner in adopting technology in the classroom? Would it be endless video watching to gain knowledge on a topic, along with on line tutorials programs with click answering of multiple choice questions? This type of educational process on its own would not result in fully understanding any topic. If technology was used as the only means to transmit knowledge, critical thinking and problem solving skills would not be developed. How would the student learning process be assessed in order to determine if a student is actually learning?

--"Teachers are not really necessary anymore.""

I disagree on this point. Teaching is far more complex than showing videos and using computers. Teachers have to go through an extensive education process to become licensed to teach. Then, throughout their careers have to continue their education to obtain new knowledge on methods of teaching. Every student in a class has a different learning style and has different levels of understanding on any given topic. A teacher has to approach teaching in a manner that all students benefit regardless of the differences of each student. This is where teaching methodology comes into play.

--"Once you record a subject on a video machine, it shouldn't be necessary for that subject matter to be repeated by millions of teachers all around the world on a daily basis.""

Videos have a time limit. In the time given only superficial information can be provided. They are most often used to provide an overview of a topic, or to provide information on a specific aspect of a subject. They do not provide in depth examination, or are all encompassing in information on a particular subject being taught.
Debate Round No. 1
Akhenaten

Pro

Quote -In your view, what would be an appropriate manner in adopting technology in the classroom? Would it be endless video watching to gain knowledge on a topic, along with on line tutorials programs with click answering of multiple choice questions? This type of educational process on its own would not result in fully understanding any topic. If technology was used as the only means to transmit knowledge, critical thinking and problem solving skills would not be developed. How would the student learning process be assessed in order to determine if a student is actually learning?

Reply - It would not be necessary to go to school in my model. The student could learn from a home computer. They would still have to log into the computer by law at certain times to fulfil the education requirements via computer time. The courses would be divided in 10 minute units on each topic. Each topic would have revision questions to test if the student understands the subject properly before progressing. The revision tests would occur daily and not on a term basis as is currently practised. A score of their progress would be accumulated. The time and accuracy of their answers would be assessed daily by the computer program. A graph of their progress would show where they were in relation to other students. The current methods of teaching are too slow, costly and ineffective. My son is struggling to learn using the current system. He keeps missing information and has to constantly have private tuition to keep up with the class. This is all unnecessary.

Quote - Videos have a time limit. In the time given only superficial information can be provided. They are most often used to provide an overview of a topic, or to provide information on a specific aspect of a subject. They do not provide in depth examination, or are all encompassing in information on a particular subject being taught.

Reply - Videos can be designed to have as much detail as you want. Some teachers are lazy and don't teach in an appropriate manner. The video method is more reliable and students don't have any excuses for not knowing information.
Teachers can show favouritism to certain students and give them better marks. The computer system is completely neutral and doesn't favour any students over others. The classroom situation has many distractions which interrupt concentration.

The computer system would save billions of dollars in education costs and would be far more productive. Some private tuition could be still available in subjects that require verbal responses. Sport and social activities would be still available using this system. Art, craft, woodwork, metalwork, technical drawing would be some exceptions that still require teachers.
Overall, 90% of teaching could be done via computer.
Peepette

Con

It's not uncommon for young adults to do some, or all of their college course work via computer. But these students already have developed discipline toward learning. Online courses, to an extent are self paced. There are weekly assignments but, there is no time limit on student"s accessing information in a given week. Still, there are books to read and papers written to be graded by an actual teacher.

Computer technology is used for home schooling young children to a very limited degree. Most of their lessons are pencil and paper with a parent guiding them. Children are not left on their own. They have not yet developed discipline toward learning or even staying focused to complete tasks independently; that comes with time and maturity. A parent guides the child along with his/her lessons, and provides explanations or reteaches where needed.

Using computers exclusively for school aged children does not address different learning styles of children; visual, auditory, or tactile; nor does it solve the issue when a student does not understand a concept. A teacher helps in this way by explaining it in a different way, or taking a different approach. A child working in a group also contributes to learning. Sometimes another child can better explain than a teacher; they use the same vocabulary and the back and forth discussion helps.

--"The courses would be divided in 10 minute units on each topic. Each topic would have revision questions to test if the student understands the subject properly before progressing. The courses would be divided in 10 minute units on each topic. Each topic would have revision questions to test if the student understands the subject properly before progressing. The revision tests would occur daily and not on a term basis as is currently practiced. "---

Let's look at your 10 minute unit proposal; what are we teaching? How to add two numbers together, or why the European explorers came to the Americas? One can maybe be taught in a 10 minute session but, the other can't. If we test a child every 10 minutes on a single concept, would that not be tedious and slow? When a child does not understand, does he just repeat the lesson it until the kid figures out which multiple answer question is right? That's process of elimination, not learning. Teachers use various types of assessments throughout each lesson to see if children are progressing, if it's found they are not grasping certain concepts, the teacher changes the method of teaching. These are not papers that are graded, but applied tools. Term grades are a summation of all test and quizzes given throughout a term.

--"A graph of their progress would show where they were in relation to other students."--

In grammar school, students aren"t graded in relation to other students in the class. They are assessed individually on how they personally progress through various units of study. The state or federal government"s standardized tests measure whether students are performing above or below a set mean. They then look at the scores of a whole class to assess teacher effectiveness; then do the same at a whole school level. How students perform in relation to one another is relative, and frankly not fair to students. You can't compare a single student against others who excels or falls behind.

--"The current methods of teaching are too slow, costly and ineffective --. My son is struggling to learn using the current system. He keeps missing information and has to constantly have private tuition to keep up with the class. This is all unnecessary."--

I am hearing two contradictory things; teaching methods are slow and your son can't keep up. I will not make comment on your son. I don"t know him, nor have any knowledge on how he learns.

Teachers have prescribed pacing guides for most subjects. If the class grasps concepts quickly, the teacher moves on. If time runs out, they still have to move on. Teachers hate pacing; most often the complaint is not enough time is allotted to teach complex concepts. Again, a teacher assesses students before a unit to see what they already know, and then builds from there and continues assessments throughout to ascertain learning.

Costly? Average dollars spent per student in the US is around $ 6,700, excluding overheads such as operations, maintenance, bussing and food services. I do not think anyone can get full time day care annually for that price, and this includes books, materials, computers and the licensing of software.

Teacher effectiveness is measured regularly at the school and state level. If our current education system is so ineffective, how has anyone progressed past their ABCs?

--"Videos can be designed to have as much detail as you want" Some teachers are lazy and don't teach in an appropriate manner" --

Tell me this. Name one TV program that you watched last night. Now state 10 things you remember about the show, including all the names of the characters? No cheating by using Tevo. Watching videos is a passive activity. No matter how detailed they are, much of the information is forgotten shortly after. That's why concepts are taught, reviewed and practiced, for understanding and retention.

Lazy teachers; I hardly know how to respond. Lazy people can't become teachers. They prepare lesson plans, with additional plans to accommodate students that require a different approach, correct papers, put together materials, turn their plans into the principle or head teacher for review and approval. They get in class to teach, assess learning, all while maintaining order. Then, they have to find time to take more college courses to keep their licenses, while taking care of their families. It's not a 40 hour work week as some people seem to think. What is appropriate teaching? Please enlighten me.

--"Teachers can show favouritism to certain students and give them better marks. The computer system is completely neutral and doesn't favour any students over others. "--

Believing that teachers favor some students with better marks is absurd. They have to prove on what basis or scale they are grading students.

---"The classroom situation has many distractions which interrupt concentration."---

When was the last time you were in school? Classrooms are hubs for activity, discussions and small group learning. Other than times when students are writing essays, taking, test or quizzes; students are not sitting at their desks for extended periods of time. What kinds of distraction do you mean?

--"The computer system would save billions of dollars in education costs and would be far more productive. Some private tuition could be still available in subjects that require verbal responses. Sport and social activities would be still available using this system. Art, craft, woodwork, metalwork, technical drawing would be some exceptions that still require teachers."----

Let's pretend we have computer based learning in place as you proposed. How much would you be willing to pay for the various learning modules? Most likely you'd be charged by a subscription method for each subject, and extra for on line books. Who or what would be correcting essays? We know Spell Check is glitchy when it comes to their, there and they're in proper context. Grammar Check is even worse. Computers can't judge essay content. Private tutoring, how much more for that? Social activities and sports still have to be paid for with taxes, and the hands on classes like art and so forth would still require a physical buildings that would need to be maintained; also bussing for students to these classes. Do you really think you'd be saving money?

--"It would not be necessary to go to school in my model. The student could learn from a home computer."----

While you and your spouse are at work, would you trust your child to sit home alone in front of a computer and stay on task with lessons? Video games anyone?
Debate Round No. 2
Akhenaten

Pro

1. It was been scientifically proven that students can only retain about 10% of any particular lesson. Thus, using a teacher is a very inefficient method of learning. There should be at least a shadow curriculum which is solely computer based. This could be used for students who didn't attend school for a day or two and missed some classes. Students will not remember 90% of what they are taught in class, so the shadow computer learning could act as either a back-up or a primary learning tool. Each module could be used as a practice and revision tool.

2. For students that still don't understand a concept they could access a on-line help system which solves more difficult problems.

3. Some course units could be longer than 10 minutes depending on the subject matter. The videos would have many alternate division points which contain finer details and references.

4. I have found that by the time that assessments are made,using the current system, its already too late. The student has missed some vital information and has gotten behind the rest of the class and can't catch up. The computer system of learning would prevent this common system break-down and time delay problem.

5. Assessing a students performance on a daily basis is the only fair system. Term assessments are too slow and don't address immediate problems. A missed piece of information needs to be detected immediately and not found out one, two or three months later.

6. Quote - Tell me this. Name one TV program that you watched last night. Now state 10 things you remember about the show, including all the names of the characters? No cheating by using Tevo. Watching videos is a passive activity. No matter how detailed they are, much of the information is forgotten shortly after. That's why concepts are taught, reviewed and practiced, for understanding and retention.

Reply - That's my point! You need to repeat each lesson about 10 times before a particular idea is fully understood. Thus, the education system can't afford to repeat each lesson 10 times. This is where the computer learning system excels in the area of repeat learning methodologies. Being in a class room of 30 students is a very passive environment also. What chance has a particular student got of getting the attention of a teacher in such a situation. In a 40 minute period of learning each student only has about 1 minute of attention time per student which is hopelessly inefficient and inadequate time period.

7. When I went to school I had some good teachers and some bad ones. The school system doesn't really weed out the bad teachers and they somehow manage to hang on to their jobs, regardless of how bad they are. The computer system would supply an alternative way to study.

8. Quote -"Teachers can show favouritism to certain students and give them better marks. The computer system is completely neutral and doesn't favour any students over others. "

Reply - When I went to school I had an argument with an English teacher and she failed me as a result. Thus, some teachers can be nasty and unreliable to give accurate marks.

9. The computer system would be a government service and provided for free. There would be incentives to achieve good results.

10. Quote - While you and your spouse are at work, would you trust your child to sit home alone in front of a computer and stay on task with lessons? Video games anyone?

Reply - The computers could be located in a school room which just has one supervisor for several classes using a monitor screen which has a view of around 10 class rooms. If any student misbehaves, the supervisor could send a warning message via an internal speaker system.
Peepette

Con

1.Response

I would like to review your scientific/educational theory reference for my own edification. Typically, a teacher will assess what students already know, then plan a lesson that is at a level they cannot complete without assistance. This is called the Zone of Proximital Development, ZPD. This is the area where students climb a step to learn something new, also known as scaffolding. Material is reviewed, taught and practiced using various methods to accommodate learning styles. Then, what taught is experienced in some manner to make it relevant to the student. When effective, retention rates are between 50 and 90% dependant on individual students learning styles and capabilities. Please do some reading on Jean Piaget and Lev Vygotsky and ZPD.

I see back-peddling on your stance. Earlier you stated "Overall, 90% of teaching could be done via computer." Now you"re stating a shadow curriculum should be available. This is already being done. Many teachers have classroom web sites that are accessible to parents containing lesson plans and homework assignments for the week or month. Text books that are being used in the classroom are accessible to students on line through text book publishers. Either the info is on the teacher"s web site, or a parent can do a little digging with a simple internet query. Or a child can just take the text book home and do some old fashion reading off of paper and catch up on some homework.

2.Response

A computer can"t have a discussion, can"t ask questions 'or probe what specifically a student doesn't understand; nor can a computer program adjust to meet the needs of individual students. Only a teacher who knows the child with an understanding how he learns can make judgments on how to resolve learning issues.

3.Response

I see second thoughts yet again from your earlier contention. Please refer to Pro top of Round 2. What happened to the premise of 10 minute snippets of information that are tested after each interval? If the division points are further apart would that not hinder retention of multiple concepts? Remember that TV show I asked you about? Again, video viewing and computer learning is a passive activity and does little for student retention of knowledge. Hand on activities, discussions; writing and just doing are far more effective.

4.Response

Let"s not confuse teacher assessments with student quizzes and test. Certainly, it would have been better to put in place a definition previously to define the difference but, I believe in context I have made this point known. "Teachers use various types of assessments throughout each lesson to see if children are progressing, if it's found they are not grasping certain concepts, the teacher changes the method of teaching (Con Round 2)." Assessments already too late? Again, how would a computer program know where understanding is lacking? The child missing a multiple choice question? What is it that he does not understand? Example: 12 + A =15. A student can agonize over what A means. It is a different language from numbers. Some children intuitively pick up that A equals a missing number, others do not. A teacher understands this and substitutes A with a blank space to explain that A means an unknown number, not A for apple. Can a computer do something like this in every instance? Most respectfully, I"m looking for how you would approach how student learning issues would be resolved from a cognitive approach using a computer learning based system.

5.Response

If a parent finds that their child is failing 2 or 3 months into a term, whose fault is that? Progress reports are sent out at regular intervals throughout a term. It takes parents and teachers working together to make education work. If you feel your child"s education is the sole responsibility of the teacher, you"re mistaken. At the end of a term you can"t scream at a teacher stating she is not doing her job if you did not take any responsibility as a parent. Valuing education at home has to be a priority. Did the parent take the time to look at the papers a child is brings home? Actually looking at progress reports and taking action if needed is helpful in solving problems. As a parent, you know your child best. Your input on how he behaves and thinks is valuable to a teacher in making decisions pertaining to his learning. If at the end of a term you are surprised your child is failing; you might want to question if you, the parent, is complicit.

6.Response - See paragraph 3, Con Round 2.

In addition --- "This is where the computer learning system excels in the area of repeat learning methodologies. "--
Please extrapolate on how a computer excels in repeat learning methodologies? What is the specific methodology that you"re are referring? Is this not the point of your debate, too much redundancy?

--"Being in a class room of 30 students is a very passive environment also.""
Refer to paragraph 10, minus quotes, Con Round 2.

7. Response

Granted, it is difficult for administration to rid schools of bad teachers. But, don"t let the media deceive you on how things really work within schools and amongst teachers. School administrators have their hands tied due to teacher contracts on the process of firing rotten eggs. Good teachers care about kids and make life miserable for teachers who just glide along. The bad do get pushed out due to lack of cooperation from their peers.

8. Response

There are no details provided on the event to make a judgment; as a result, an invalid statement for debate.

A child"s perspective on an occurrence is different from an adult"s. Example: Chewing gum in class. Not a problem from a kid"s point of view. From a teacher"s perspective gum usually ends up stuck under the desks. It is an unsanitary element with cold, flu and mono spread potential. The next student who sits there might get their pants ruined. A custodian has to use chemicals and a scraper to remove the gum, which is time and money out of the school budget.

9. Response

Nothing is free. Taxes would be paid to develop, maintain and monitor this supposed system.

10. Response

Here again there is a bit of contradiction; Pro Round 2, paragraph 2.

In conclusion, I hold fast that teachers are still necessary. The process of education is neither redundant nor out of date. Sole reliance on video and computer instruction is insufficient in meeting individual student learning styles, and resolution of issues regarding learning.

http://www.pepperdine.edu...
http://epltt.coe.uga.edu...
http://www.timelessinformation.com...
http://www.tenouk.com...
http://academicjournals.org...
http://www.uft.org...
http://extension.illinois.edu...
http://www.thirteen.org...
http://researchnetwork.pearson.com...
http://www.connectionsacademy.com...
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Akhenaten 1 year ago
Akhenaten
The voting system reminds me of the North Korean Government for some reason. Can't think why? lol
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: ColeTrain// Mod action: Removed<

5 points to Con (Arguments, Sources). Reasons for voting decision: Con provided sources to back his points, winning the source point. As for arguments, the two were relatively even, though I feel Con's had greater impact and sustenance.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) Arguments points require specific justification, with the voter pointing to arguments made and not merely stating that one side won on a generalized level. (2) Source points require further justification. Stating that one side provided more is insufficient.
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Posted by Akhenaten 1 year ago
Akhenaten
I was referring to ithink-ithink
Posted by Peepette 1 year ago
Peepette
I'll try again so vomiting is less likely.
The education system is redundant.
Hoping your feeling better.
Posted by Akhenaten 1 year ago
Akhenaten
You must be a teacher. Your version of my subject heading is tortuously pedantic and wordy. Its enough to make a person vomit!
Posted by ithink-ithink 1 year ago
ithink-ithink
This Pro is a troll.

Pity because I would probably take the side of pro if the motion was something along the lines of
- An academic course given by means of electronic media by a statistically accepted teacher
- Is better than a portion or even a majority of physically present teachers

@Peepette if you're interested in debating this topic, give me a bell
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
I can't take this debate seriously. The title is redundant.
No votes have been placed for this debate.