The Instigator
DAN123
Con (against)
Tied
7 Points
The Contender
KeytarHero
Pro (for)
Tied
7 Points

The scriptures teach that a child of God can't fall (eternal security or "once saved always saved")

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/19/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,197 times Debate No: 17121
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (15)
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DAN123

Con

The scriptures- the 66 books of the old and new testament
Teach- to convey
Doctrine of Eternal security- impossinility of apostasy; once saved, always saved.

Rule: Whoever wants to accept this debate should be a christian!

A large number of denominationalists subscribe to the position that a child of God could never apostatize and finally be lost.

“Once saved always saved” as called by a number of people can also be called the “eternal security” doctrine, meaning whatever sin he may do from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in danger. Unfortunately my opponent is an advocate of this doctrine.

Does the Bible teach that a Christian can never live in such a way as to endanger his soul? In other words once an individual is saved, will he always be saved, no matter what he does? It is unfortunate that many in the religious world have embraced this notion, especially my opponent which defends this, which is not taught in the Bible. This is evident because of the following” (1) Jesus taught that some would fall away. (2) Paul warned Christians of apostasy. (3) Some actually fell away. (4) Provision is made for the fallen. If these four points are true, and they are, then a child of God be lost. Let’s examine each point.

Jesus Taught that some would Fall

Jesus commenced the parable of the sower in this manner: “A sower went out to sow seed.” (Luke 8:5). The seed was the Word of God, which was sown in the hearts of people (Lk. 8:11). Jesus described some would “receive the word with joy” and “for a while believe” (v.13). In spite receiving and believing, they would fall away “in the time of temptation” (v.13). Can one fall away from something he does not have? No. Jesus taught some would fall away in tome of temptation.

In the Lord’s discourse on the vine and the branches, he taught that disciples who do not “abide in him,” thus becoming fruitless,” would be cast forth and burned (John 15:1-6). Coffman’s remarks are most appropriate:

Here is the answer to the old question of whether or not a Christian can so sin as to be lost. Both the precept and the example are here. Judas, at first a true apostle, did not abide in Christ and was cast forth as a branch. Salvation for every man ever born turns upon just two questions: (1) is he “in Christ” and (2) does he remain “in Christ”?

Paul Warned Christians of Apostasy

In I Cor. 10, Paul gives several examples of apostasy on the part of God’s covenant in the Old Testament and the consequent punishment. Then he makes this present day application: “wherefore let him thinketh he standeth lest he fall” (I Cor. 10:12). Paul’s warning is based upon actual historical examples. He did not want those in the Corinth to follow the same course. The text reveals that some were “over thrown” (v. 5), some “fell” (v. 8), and some “perished” (vv. 9, 10). Remember they died in that condition. There is danger in falling. Why warn of falling if the possibility does not exist? Why speak of a way to escape if there is no danger of being taken by temptation and remaining in that condition? (v.13). Why did Paul instruct the Corinthian Christians to flee idolatry (v. 14), if idolatry has no bearing on one's salvation? A warning implies a danger, an actual example demonstrates the possibility of it, and a way of escape implies the need of escape!

Examples of Apostasy

Addressed to Jewish Christians, the book of Hebrews demonstrates the superiority of Christianity over Judaism. The inspired author was concerned that some Christians, due to Jewish Christians, would revert to Judaism. The author argues his case by showing Christianity’s superiority in many particulars (i.e., better messenger, better priesthood, better sacrifice, etc.) However there were some went back, and because of this, the record states that they “fell away” (Heb. 6:6, ASV). In an attempt to escape the irresistible conclusion (i.e., apostasy), some maintain that Christians are not in view. That Christians are not in view is clearly seem by the fact that the fallen ones had been enlightened, were partakers of the Holy Spirit, had tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come (vv. 4-6). Certainly they could never fall away from salvation if they never possessed it. No hermeneutical gymnastic can avoid this conclusion.

Provision for the Fallen

Sin separates us from God. The prophet declared: “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God and your sins have hid His face from you, that he will not hear” (Isa. 59:2). No scriptural guided person denies that sin must be removed for one to ente)r the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:21). Yet no one can truthfully say he does not sin (I John 1:8). Therefore, what must the Christian do when he sins? So that Simon would not perish, Peter told him to repent and pray for forgiveness (Acts 8: 20-22). John declares: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”. (John 1:19). If a child of God could never perish, why provision for the one perishing t0o be restored! (James 5:19, 20). This makes all such teaching in the New Testament meaningless! Sin results in death (Jas. 1:15). Consequently, John wrote so that brethren might not sin (I John 2:1), If sin does not put Christians in danger, then why did John write to prevent such?

Think about these points. Certain disciples, who followed Paul and Barnabas, and who obviously had accepted the Gospel, were admonished to "continue in the grace of God" (Acts 13:43). Steadfastness was required. Paul challenged the Corinthian saints to "receive not the grace of God "in vain" (II Cor. 6:1). If a child of God can never be lost, how could he receive God's grace "in vain"? The brethren at Philippi were instructed to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil.2:12). If a Christian cannot be lost finally, regardless of what he does or does not do, why would he ever entertain any "fear and trembling"

Sources: James Burton Coffman, Commentary on John (Austin: Firm Foundation, 1974), p.346

The Spiritual Sword (Denominational Doctrines, April 1997 p.8-11)

KeytarHero

Pro

I would like to thank the Instigator for issuing this challenge.

I agree with Dan's first two definitions. However, he has actually misunderstood what the doctrine of eternal security actually teaches. Paul wrote, "shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Certainly not!" (Romans 6:1-2).

Those who believe in eternal security do not believe you can be saved, then go out and live a life of sin as if you did not belong to God simply because you have your salvation. There's a difference between an intellectual assent of the facts, and actually taking God's Word to heart. What is required for salvation? "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved" (Romans 10:9). Confession and belief are required for salvation. But let's look at James 2:19: "You believe there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble!" You can believe in God and not actually be saved, as the demons do. James also tells us: "Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." A true, genuine, saving faith (belief) is one that leads to do good works, and to keep oneself from sin. Obivously no one, not even saved believers, can be absolutely sinless -- we just believe that once saved, a Christian will now hate sin and will do everything they can to avoid it.

Jesus is the "author and finisher of our faith" (Heb. 12:2). As such, since our salvation is through Jesus, He is also able to keep us from stumbling (Jude 24). Jesus is certainly powerful enough to keep us from stumbling to a point where we could, potentially, lose our salvation.

There is only one unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:31). The only sin that can not be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Any sin can be forgiven, even any sin that a Christian commits. But a Christian who is genuinely saved will not want to commit any sin, though they still do stumble into it. First John 5:16 talks about a "sin that leads to death." If a Christian does sin willfully, especially a heinous one, then God may decide to end that Christian's time on earth prematurely. That Christian will certainly lose his/her reward in Heaven, but will not lose their salvation.

Finally, if one could lose their salvation, how much sin or what sins would cause you to do it? The Scriptures certainly don't say there are any sins that would cause you to lose your salvation. No Christian could be secure in their salvation, which would directly contradict 1 John 5:13.

I will now respond to Dan's objections.

Jesus Taught that some would Fall

As for the parable of the sower, the one who "fell away" was never a genuine believer. That's why someone can fall away in time of temptation. In verse 13 of the passage, we see that the seed never took root. These believers were never genuine; the Word never took root in their heart. They may have believe because it sounded good or because they wanted to avoid an eternity in Hell, but they never genuinely trusted in the Lord for their salvation.

There is no evidence Judas Iscariot was ever a true apostle. In fact, Judas was chosen because it had been prophecied that one of the disciples would betray Jesus. In fact, Jesus even said He chose the twelve, and one was a devil (John 6:70). It is true that disciples must abide in Him to be fruitful. However, one who is not a genuine believer will not remain in Christ, in fact has never taken root in Christ in the first place, as in the parable of the sower.

Paul Warned Christians of Apostasy

If we read 1 Corinthians 10 in context, we see that Paul is not actually talking about salvation. He is talking about avoiding sin. There are those who fall into temptation and sin. Some do die from their sin, as I mentioned there is a sin that leads to death. However, God will never allow us to be tempted more than we can bear, and He will always provide the way out. No Christian has to sin, there is always a way out of it, which God provides. This also goes to show that there are those who are not genuine believers. In the first few verses we read of people who went through the motions, being baptized, eating the same spiritual food, drinking the same spiritual drink, but God was not pleased with them. If they do not genuinely believe, if the Word never takes root in their lives, God will not be pleased with them. Even if one does fall, they can repent and God will be faithful to forgive them (1 John 1:9).

Examples of Apostasy

First, this passage shows that if anyone were to "fall away," that they could never again be saved because God will not allow His Son to be sacrificed again. However, as I have already stated, one who is genuinely saved will continue on in the faith because God's Word has taken root. Those who fall away never had the Word take root in their lives and so won't persevere forever, or usually they won't persevere very long. They will fall away when temptation comes against them, when life gets hard, or when they perceive something better has come along.

Provision for the Fallen

I agree that sin separates us from God. That is why a believer must repent of their sins before making their petitions known before God, so that He will hear their prayers. However, what if someone dies with sin in their life? Does that person go to Hell, even if they're saved? I don't believe they will. The book of Hebrews tells us that Jesus died for all our sins: past, present, and future (Heb. 10:10, 14). If someone dies unexpectedly, without having repented of any sins, they are still sanctified by the blood of Jesus.

If Simon was saved in that event, Peter was not saying "repent or you will perish"; he was using strong language to show Simon how sinful it was to think that the Spirit of the Lord could be purchased with money. He also told Simon, "and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you." God will be faithful and just to forgive our sins if we ask, so why would Peter say "if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you" if it definitely would, according to the Scriptures. He was showing that his attitude toward the Spirit of the Lord was incredibly heinous. In fact, he might not have even received the Holy Spirit when the apostles laid their hands on the people, because we also read that Peter said, "You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God."

Acts 13:43: the followers were admonished to continue "in the grace of God" as a reminder that God works within them.

II Corinthians 6:1: Receiving the grace of God "in vain" would be what I already described. To hear the Word, to receive it with gladness, but not to let it take root in your heart. To never actually let it change you, to accept it only because you like what you hear, or you want to escape judgment. Those "believers" don't last for long.

Philippians 2:12: As we see in the following verse, it is God who works in us both to will and do for His good pleasure. If God is the one who works in us, surely He is strong enough to keep us on the right path. We don't work out to get a body, we work out to develop our body. In the same way, we work out our salvation so that we can grow in the path of righteousness to become more and more like God. We work out our salvation in fear and trembling because it's God who works in us, and God is so much higher than us. Paul talked about being with the Corinthians in fear and trembling (1 Cor. 2:3), because the words he spoke were not his own, but the Spirit working within him. We are also told to perfect holiness in the fear of God (2 Cor. 7:1).

I have shown that Dan has fundamentally misunderstood the doctrine of eternal security, therefore creating a strawman argument against it. I have also shown how his arguments do not stand. I look forward to our next round.
Debate Round No. 1
DAN123

Con

First of all, i would like to thank my opponent for his response

His reason bounces all over the place and is incoherent. I guess to twist Scripture that is necessary. Let's begin with one misconception; the sin unto death. That does not speak of physical death where the soul and spirit leave the body. Rather, it is speaking of spiritual death where the soul leaves God. Since he does not believe this is possible, he automatically reverts to the other.

1st John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Our sins, those that come after walking in the light (v. 7), are forgiven only if we meet the condition; if we confess.

I will ask you, can i fall off the roof of a building if I have never been on that building. Of course, and honest answer will be in the negative. The same hold true with faith. You cannot fall from grace if you never had grace (Galatians 5:4). Paul warned of it. Why would he warn us of a danger that did not exist? Your position says Paul is too stupid to know falling from grace is not possible. He was not stupid, so falling from grace is possible.

Likewise, a ship cannot crash (be shipwrecked) if it never began the journey and strayed off course. It is the same with faith. Faith cannot be shipwrecked if there is no faith in the first place. Yet, Hymenaeus and Alexander made their faith shipwreck (1st Timothy 1:19-20). They had faith, Bible believing and obeying faith, but they strayed off course and crashed. Their faith stopped.

God will not take away our salvation. Also, He will never allow another to take it. But, these people incorrectly interpret this to mean salvation will never be gone. Even if God does not take it, this verse says nothing about what happens if we choose willingly to take it out of His hands.

I will now go to keytarhero's rebuttals.

Jesus Taught that some would Fall

One cannot fall away from something which was never possessed. One cannot thrust from him, and make shipwreck of the faith , if he is not in the faith (I Tim. 1:19).

This is the old Baptist run on the matter of "eternal security." They try to say that Simon was never really converted, but inspired Luke said, several years later when he wrote, that he was converted (Acts 8:13). It is sad that some ignore the facts of the Bible because of their theories!!

Paul Warned Christians of Apostasy

Again i will state again, The text reveals that some were “over thrown” (v. 5), some “fell” (v. 8), and some “perished” (vv. 9, 10). Remember they died in that condition. There is danger in falling. Why warn of falling if the possibility does not exist? Why speak of a way to escape if there is no danger of being taken by temptation and remaining in that condition? (v.13). Why did Paul instruct the Corinthian Christians to flee idolatry (v. 14), if idolatry has no bearing on one's salvation? A warning implies a danger, an actual example demonstrates the possibility of it, and a way of escape implies the need of escape!

Even Paul an apostle of God said he could fall from grace,

NOW HEAR YE THE WORD OF THE LORD as recorded in 1st Corinthians 9:27:

“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

After Paul was saved, and a preacher of the gospel, he could still be castaway from God, or be lost. I would like to know what kind of egos this man (Calvin) and his blind followers including you keytarhero have to believe they are includingyou in a better position than the great apostle, Paul! They may including you be unaware of this verse of scripture. However, once shown, to maintain the teaching is to demonstrate this inflated ego.



Examples of Apostasy

As i have said earlier,Hymenaeus and Alexander made their faith shipwreck (1st Timothy 1:19-20). They had faith,Bible believing and obeying faith (of course they were saved), but they strayed off course and crashed. Their faith stopped. And you falsely stated " They will fall away when temptation comes against them, when life gets hard, or when they perceive something better has come along." Tempatations are part of Christian life! i will ask you one thing: Did you ever get tempted? And did you yield to it?

Provision for the Fallen

Your argument shows no support from what you are defending, you said you believe that sins separate us from God, and after that you said if a person dies with his sins he will not go to hell. your arguments are self-refuting, you say that if somone dies without repented any of his sins,(just like you said that a "genuine believer" would not commit any sin, because the Word of God took root in his heart), because they are still sanctified by the precious blood of Jesus (sanctified by the blood of jesus means he is saved).

According to Keytarhero's logic

Genuine believer- would not commit any sin.
Sin separates us from God
Yet if a "genuine believer" dies with his sins He will go to heaven

I thought you said in you earlier statements the genuine believer will try not to commit any sins, but in your statements you said that after a person "becomes a Christian" and commits sins is not really a "genuine believer"
Then, why (according to your statements) Would a "genuine beliver" DIE WITH HIS SINS.

This logical fallacy is what Keytarhero believes in. But to pervert the Gospel he has to do this.

let's now go to simon the sorcerrer.

Keytarhero's statements here were just assertions, not really mass evidences, but for clarification, Peter was really saying Repent or you will perish, in a summarized kind of phrase.


Act 8:20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!

Act 8:21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
Act 8:22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.

In Acts 13:43 Not much nothing to say, since Keytarhero did no objections

II Cor. 6:1 Keytarhero, this was addressed to the saints, meaning the saved,as contradictory to your doctrine . That's why Paul told them to not take the grace of God "in vain".

In Phil. 2:12- i agree with the statements of keytar but he did not addressed the real situation here, "If a Christian cannot be lost finally, regardless of what he does or does not do, why would he ever entertain any "fear and trembling"". i would like to encourage my opponent to answer the questions in my first argument in round 1.

In his last statement, my opponent, falsely accused me of creating a strawman argument which he CLEARLY DOES. He builds statements which are contradictory to the Bible and perverting the Gospel to support his false doctrine.

I look forward to the next round.




KeytarHero

Pro

First, let me point out that Dan has no idea what a strawman argument actually is. I have built statements which are contradictory to the Bible and perverted the Gospel to support my false doctrine. I have clearly backed up my statements. However, even if I had that is not a strawman. In the first round, Dan created a strawman argument against me, creating an argument that I don't believe and then refuting it because it's easier to refute than the real doctrine of eternal security. He also clearly misrepresents my arguments as well. Not only that, but he brings to the table ad hominem attacks, accusing me of twisting Scripture and being a blind follower. His case is not very strong and he knows it.

There is no indication that spiritual death is in view here. In fact, there's a good example of Christians committing a sin that leads to death in Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-10). These two lied to the Holy Spirit and were struck dead. There is no indication they lost their salvation, but they died physically for their sin.

Yes, our sins are forgiven if we confess, but I think under certain circumstances unconfessed sin will be forgiven. A genuine Christian will confess of his sins to God. However, suppose he is driving and someone cuts him off. He swears and yells at the driver and though he immediately regrets his behavior, dies in a car wreck before he has a chance to repent of it. God is a just God. He knows that believer made a mistake. That sin will be forgiven just like any other.

"Your position says Paul is too stupid to know..."

No, you are putting words in my mouth. One could say that your position says that Christ is not powerful enough to keep us from stumbling.

"God will not take away our salvation. Also, He will never allow another to take it."

Let's look at the definition of lose. "to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc.; to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered." [1]

Even if you can willfully walk away from your salvation, this is not losing it. You don't lose something on purpose. You still cannot lose your salvation. My point stands that a genuine believer would not commit a sin so heinous you could, potentially, lose your salvation.

The passage in Acts still does not indicate he was a genuine believer. Again, as it says in James, even the demons believe -- and tremble. He was also baptized, which does not mean he was saved. Truly, he could not have been genuinely saved because he didn't fully understand what it meant to be saved. He thought the Holy Spirit could be bought with money, and Peter told him he had not part nor portion in the matter as his heart was not right with God. He was taken in by the signs and wonders that were being done.

Idolatry was still a sin. Paul admonished us not to commit a whole plethora of sins. Sins are dangerous to the unsaved because they condemn you to Hell, and sins are dangerous for the saved because they keep us from a right relationship with God. God will not even hear our prayers if there are unconfessed sins in our heart. Christians will come upon many temptations, but God will always provide the way out.

"...and his blind followers including you keytarhero..."

Nice ad hominem attack.

Paul doesn't say he should become a "castaway." I don't know what version of the Bible you use, but the NASB (which is considered the most accurate word-for-word translation) uses the word "disqualified," which fits better with the analogy of running the race that Paul was using, if you read the passage in context. He was talking about how we run for an imperishable crown. If he becomes disqualified, it would be for his reward in Heaven, not for salvation itself. Also, as a preacher of the gospel, he did not want to teach one thing and then do another, which would invalidate the words he was teaching to them.

I do not consider myself better than Paul. In fact, I can relate with Paul in many ways. But you are constantly reading into the Scriptures what is simply not there. My opponent just doesn't quit. I have not shown any indication that my ego is inflated.

First of all, Hymenaeus and Alexander did not have "Bible-believing" faith. The Bible had not been compiled yet. In fact, the New Testament hadn't even been written by then. The only Scriptures they would have actually had faith in were the Old Testament Scriptures, and the few Scriptures of the New Testament which were being circulated and accepted as inspired at the time. Again, even if you can willingly walk away from your salvation, this is not "losing" your salvation as you can't lose something on purpose. I have already outlined the difference between simple belief and saving faith. I know temptations are part of the Christian life. I have never stated otherwise. Of course I get tempted, and yes I yield to temptation at times. I have not "lost" my salvation because of it; I repent, God forgives me, and we move on. You are, again, creating a strawman argument.

Now Dan attempts to understand my logic and fails miserably. This is the most epic of strawman arguments he has created against me thus far:

Sin separates us from God. It separated Adam and Eve from God in the original sin, and the fact that we are conceived into sin means that we are separated from God. If we die in that state, we will go to Hell. That's where Jesus comes into the picture. Now that Jesus has died on the cross, He is our mediator between God and man. When we come to a saving faith in Christ, He now forgives us our sins. However, sin still keeps us apart from God. When we sin, God does not hear our prayers (Psalm 66:18). We must be in a right relationship with God in order for Him to hear us, and this includes forsaking sin and living lives that are pleasing to Him. I have also not said a "genuine believer" will not commit any sin. You are blatantly lying and misrepresenting my position. I said a genuine believer will not want to sin, but will still stumble into it. This means he won't sin on purpose, but he will still sin because he still battles his sin nature.
I never said a genuine believer will die with his sins, but it is conceivable a genuine believer could die with unconfessed sins. Death has a habit of sneaking up on us. If a believer dies before he has had a chance to repent of his sins, God will still forgive that believer because Jesus died for all of our sins, past, present, and future. If God is really the way you've made Him out to be, I would be in constant fear for my own salvation. I doubt even you would make it to Heaven based on your perception of God. You'd better make absolutely sure you're repenting 24/7 because you wouldn't want to slip up and forget even one sin, lest God hold that against you and condemn you to Hell.

My statements on Acts 8 were evidence. Notice how Dan conveniently does not emphasize the verses that prove my point and not his.

Acts 13:43 -- my statement here stands. They were admonished to continue in the grace of God as a reminder that God works within them, not as a warning that God will withdraw His grace from them.

2 Cor. 2:1 -- The letter was sent to a church, but not everyone who claims to be a Christian is saved, and not everyone in the church is saved.

Phil. 2:12 -- I did address the real situation here. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because it's God who works within us, not because we're supposed to constantly fear that we've lost our salvation (as I've already established, we can't). I have also already addressed his first round arguments. Whether or not Dan is convinced is immaterial. What matters is if the reader is convinced, and I believe I have adequately demonstrated why Dan's argument fails.

Again, Dan doesn't understand what a logical fallacy is, especially a strawman. He has continually created strawman arguments against me, made ad hominem attacks, and misrepresented my position.
[1] http://dictionary.reference.com...;
Debate Round No. 2
DAN123

Con




first of all i want to Thank my opponent for his response.

I want my opponent to know that my case is strong, and you know that.

I think my opponent is confused with the text he made as example in here
here’s what he said:
"There is no indication that spiritual death is in view here. In fact, there's a good example of Christians committing a sin that leads to death in Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-10). These two lied to the Holy Spirit and were struck dead. There is no indication they lost their salvation, but they died physically for their sin."

i thought your proof text was First John 5:16. pls. before you make your arguments please make sure of your statements.
See your first argument.

Further, you say about certain things that "under circumstances unconfessed sins will be forgiven". Keytar, your statement was just an assertion, if you want to persuade me pls. put your proof text regarding this matter.

Further my opponent says that even you can willfully walk away from your salvation you won't "lose it"

Well, based in the propsition, There is a difference in the Bible in "falling" and "falling away." When one leaves his faith in Christ and simply falls short, we may restore him (Gal.6:1; Jas.5:19-20). But if one goes so far that he cannot be restored, he is said to "fall away" (Heb.6:4-6), and it is "impossible..to renew them unto repentance". Along with many other passages, Paul warns about falling (I Cor.10:12-13), which if man could not fall these warnings would be unneccessary! Not only can Christians fall from the grace of God, the Galatians did fall from grace (Gal.5:4, 7; See: II Pet.2:10-22).

Again, the old Baptist theory of "never saved in the first place"
We have already shown that some Christians fell away. But one cannot fall away from something which was never possessed. But since you certainly don’t believe this you would revert again to the other.

Lastly, my opponent fails to understand the main point of my argument.

He doesn't acknowledge the statements like: "can i fall off the roof of a building if I have never been on that building", "a ship cannot crash (be shipwrecked) if it never began the journey and strayed off course.", and "You cannot fall from grace if you never had grace (Galatians 5:4). Paul warned of it. Why would he warn us of a danger that did not exist?"

I hope my opponent will reply to these statements. Because he has left these unnoticed.


My opponent still argues that simon was not saved that moment when he was baptized, he argues that he did not understand what it meant to be saved. Keytarhero, that was after he was saved, not before he were saved if you'll study Acts 8: 13-24 you will find out.



He says sin separates us from God. Then he says we cannot be separated from God. You cannot be separated from somewhere you have not been. For sin to separate us, as he says, then it is necessary that we were already in that position, which he denies.

As i have studied the context, "disqualified" can also be used, the greek word of the text in I Cor. 9:27 is "adokimos". Here's what most scholars say about "adokimos":



adokimos

ad-ok'-ee-mos
(as a negative particle); unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally):
- castaway, rejected, reprobate.

But I will now go the main point, Paul implies, if such earnest, self-denying
watchfulness over himself be needed still,
with all his labors for others,
to make his own calling sure, much more is the same needed
by the Corinthians, instead of their going, as they do, to the extreme limit of Christian liberty.



At last you admitted that you do not consider better than Paul, and therefore i conclude that a child of God can fall from grace.

And again and again my opponent insists that Hymenaeus and Alexander were never saved in the first place. One cannot thrust from him, and make shipwreck of the Faith, if he is not in the Faith (I Tim. 1:19).

The best I can say is that a command is always a command. It is to be obeyed. God will not be spurious in giving commands that cannot be obeyed or that do not matter. His position on 2nd Corinthians 6:1 does not make sense. It disproves for him the very thing he is trying to prove.




Philippians 2:12 begins with a conjunction. Therefore, it necessarily ties to the previous verses. In the previous verses, it speaks of every knee bowing and every tongue confessing. This is not going to happen at any time other than Judgment Day. At Judgment Day, it will be too late to strengthen faith as he suggests. You will either be lost or saved, right then, and there is no more chance. There are not people that will be a little saved or a lot saved as his position dictates. So, any making sure is obtaining salvation and not strengthening it.

He has the cart before the horse in Acts 13:43.God working within them means nothing more than God's grace continuing in them. He is taking a clausal noun and making it the subject of the statement. God's grace is not what continues in this context (even though it does), what continues is the implied subject of the passage, "You." In English, when commands are given, the verb (such as continue in this case) is listed first in the statement, with the understanding that the audience is the subject and expected to react.

Simon had to pray. But, if his heart was not really in it, then the prayer would be unheard. That is where the realm of possibility enters the picture. Peter was warning Simon that his actions needed to mirror his words.

He says sin separates us from God. Then he says we cannot be separated from God. You cannot be separated from somewhere you have not been. For sin to separate us, as he says, then it is necessary that we were already in that position, which he denies.

The Calvinists take half Scriptures to support their fantasies, but do not dare look at context or complete passages because it will destroy them.

Closing statements:
Keytarhero, It sounds to me as if you are not approaching this to hear anything. It sounds as if your one mouth is open and your two ears are closed.

Questions:
1. Show scriptural references that advocate "eternal Securtiy"
2. Can one fall away from something he does not have?

Sources:
1. The Spiritual Sword
2. Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary




KeytarHero

Pro

I would like to thank the Instigator for his response.

"i thought your proof text was First John 5:16."

Am I only allowed one proof text? If the Bible backs me up in several places rather than just one, would it not be advantageous to use them? I'm not sure where you're going with your accusation. There are two kinds of death mentioned in Scripture: Physical death, which is a separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death, which is a separation of the soul from God. That's why it says in Hebrews that we're only meant to die once, and then judgment. The first death is physical, the second death is spiritual (i.e. an eternity in Hell).

Also, I fail to see my opponent's reasoning that I was making an assertion that under circumstances unconfessed sins will be forgiven. If a Christian dies before he has a chance to repent, nothing in Scripture indicates that Christian will be kept out of Heaven. As I stated, the book of Hebrews tells us that Christ died once for all of our sins. We repent to get back into good standing with God, but not repenting doesn't leave a genuine believer in a lost state.

As I also said, if you could walk away from our salvation, that would not be losing it. You don't lose something on purpose. Losing salvation indicates that you did something so bad, God took it away. Either that or you misplaced it. But the Bible is quite clear that Jesus gives us eternal life, we will never perish, and no one can pluck us from God's hand (John 10:28). To say that we can lose our salvation is to say that God is not powerful enough to keep us from stumbling, which directly contradicts Jude 24.

Again, if we can leave the faith of our own free will, this is not losing our salvation. If someone has known and understood the ways of God, if they leave they cannot be brought back. No one is forcing this upon them, and they are not losing anything. We have a free will, and we can choose to accept the faith or reject it.

I am curious, you make a distinction between one who falls short and can be restored, and one who falls for far he cannot be restored. How far is too far for a believer to fall until they can't be restored?

As I have already indicated, you can believe but never really be saved (as the demons do). You can belong to the association of believers but never really be saved (like Judas Iscariot). If you "fall away," you were never saved in the first place because God is able to keep us from stumbling, and there is no sin, save the unpardonable one (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit), that cannot be forgiven. If a Christian "falls away," you may be sure their faith was never genuine (as in the parable of the sower).

I will reply to your statements. You can't fall off the roof of a building if you have never been on that building, but you can fall off the roof if you were never a part of the building. A ship cannot crash if it never began the journey and stray off course, but beginning the journey does not mean you complete the journey. You can believe but not be saved. You can fall from grace if you never had "grace," because to "fall of grace" simply means to lose your good standing.

We don't start out life in a right relationship with God. We start out as sinners and sin comes naturally to us. It's not until we are saved and repent that we can enter into a good relationship with God. Sin separates us from God for eternity (as the unrepentant will go to Hell for eternity), but sin can also separate the believer from God for a time. God is so holy He can't be around sin. This is why He briefly forsook Jesus on the cross, because He was bearing the sins of the entire world on His shoulders. As such, believers need to realize that sin is very serious to God and God will not answer our prayers until we repent of our sins. Perhaps if the Instigator would stop being so judgmental towards those who disagree with him and try to have an honest dialogue, he may one day come to understand what others believer (rather than just assuming he knows everything).

I have never said that you can be a little saved or a lot saved. You're either saved or you're not. But God has not left us wondering if perhaps we're saved, or perhaps we will be saved. he gave us the Scriptures so that we can be sure of our salvation (1 John 5:13). Eternal life means eternal. Once we have eternal life, there's nothing we can do to make it non-eternal.

Also, I have never said I was Calvinist. The Instigator has proven time and again he does not even understand the doctrine of eternal security, and he assumes that everyone who believes in eternal security must be a Calvinist. Again, if my opponent would stop making assumptions, he may actually learn something about people.

"...but do not dare look at context or complete passages because it will destroy them."

Actually, you have not shown a single instance in which I have allegedly taken a Scripture out of context to say something it did not intend. In fact, I believe you are doing that, yourself.

We don't debate to convince the opponent, we debate to convince the reader. The Instigator has made himself out to be God. He assumes I am not listening, and am only speaking, simply because I disagree with him. Sorry, but there is only one God and I will take the words of the God I believe in over the Instigator.

I have already answered his questions, but I will do so now for clarity's sake.

1. 1 John 5:13, Matthew 12:31-32, Jude 24
2. I have already shown that one can fall away from something without being a part of it, and one can fall from grace without being saved because to fall from grace means to lose your good standing.

Now, a couple questions of my own:

1. Show Scriptural references for sins that cannot be forgiven, other than the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
2. How far is too far for a believer to fall before He cannot be restored?

I look forward to our next round.
Debate Round No. 3
DAN123

Con

DAN123 forfeited this round.
KeytarHero

Pro

Well, Dan has forfeited this round so I extend all my arguments into our final round.
Debate Round No. 4
DAN123

Con

Sorry, if I missed your point but if you look clearly at I John 5:16 it is clearly it does not speak of a physical death wherein the soul and spirit leave the body. Further my opponent attempts to establish that when one is saved, He is saved “for all time” and so can never lose his salvation. His proof texts are from Heb. 10. There the Holy writer stated that Christ “offered one sacrifice for sins forever.” He “hath perfected forever them that are sanctified” (12: 14). Again, though, our friend has missed the point. First of all, it is apparent that the subjects are not saved beyond the possibility of apostasy as evidenced by the fact that they are in the process of being “sanctified” (a present tense participle vs. 14); their personal sanctification was not completely accomplished at Calvary. Second, the perfect tense form “hath perfected” (which pictures an event in the past with abiding results) merely denotes the fact that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross will never have to be repeated; it will be forever efficacious (see 11-13). There is no support in these passages for the notion of “eternal security.”

Further my opponent uses John 10:27-28 as an attempt to defend his position. He thinks this is one of the clearest statements of security in the Bible. Does it support his doctrine on this point? First, there is no doubt that security, from the Savior’s vantagepoint, is offered. The question is not whether someone could “snatch” us away; the issue is does a child of God possess personal volition so that he can walk away from the Lord if he chooses to do so? Second, we must once more call attention to the fact that the Master’s promise in this context is qualified. Jesus said: “My sheep hear [akouousin – present tense, keep listening to] my voice, and I know [ginosko – present tense, keep on knowing] them, and they follow [akolouthousin – present tense, continue to follow] me; and I give [didomi – present tense, am in the process of giving] unto them eternal life …” Their salvation was not a “done deal.” As long as the sheep keep listening keep listening to the Shepherd, and as long as they continue to follow Him, they will not perish. Without question, though, if they stop listening and cease following him, they will perish. Note this verse: if a man keep my word, he shall never see death” (John 8:51). The security is conditional.

The term “if” is a conditional participle. It introduces a contingency.

My opponent's greatest proof text and greatest misinterpretation:Jude 1:24

“Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord,be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen”

(Jude 24-25, NASB)

According to Jude 24, God is able to do two things: (1) to keep every believer from stumbling (from experiencing major moral or doctrinal failure); and (2) to make us stand “blameless with great joy” in the presence of His glory. An important interpretive

question is whether Jude was teaching an unconditional guarantee God will keep believers from stumbling and stand blameless in the presence of His glory, or was referring to a conditional guarantee requiring a certain response by individual believers. In other words, if God is able to do something, does this necessarily mean that He will do it?

[NB to Greek students: Jude 24 is an instance in which an adjectival participle isfunctioning as the controlling verb. Gal. 3:21 is similar: “for if a law had beengiven that could make alive” (eij ga;r ejdovqh novmo" oJ d u navme n o" zw/opoih'sai;see Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 599].

But how can anyone propose such an unconditional guarantee when one thinks of
saints like David, Solomon, Peter, John Mark, and Demas? All of these believers
stumbled badly. In these instances, was God unable to keep these believers from
stumbling, or is the unconditional guarantee proposed by biblical interprets found at fault?
If the latter, then Jude 24 calls for, but does not guarantee perseverance, and thus we
should not confuse this passage with eternal security which is promised elsewhere in
Scripture (Jn. 3:16; 5:24; 6:29, 40; Acts 16:31; 1 Jn. 5:12-13).


God is able to perform anything He wishes to do, as long as it aligns with His
absolute holiness. For example, God is unable to lie, because this contradicts His personal
character. But there are numerous events which have happened which God could have
stopped from occurring. One only needs to think of the fall of man and the woman in the
Garden of Eden. God could have created them without an ability to sin; yet He chose not
to do so. He could have kept the serpent from tempting them, but He did not.
There are many places in the New Testament where the same expression “God is
able” is employed and where the possible result either never occurred, or where it only
occurred when a condition was met. Consider the following examples:

1. “And do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for

our father’; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up
children to Abraham” (Matt. 3:9, NASB).
2. “For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able
to come to the aid of those who are tempted” (Heb. 2:18, NASB). Yet, this
aid is conditioned upon the one being tested looking to Him in prayer with
faith (Heb. 3:12—15; 4:11-16).
3. “And after He had come into the house, the blind men came up to Him, and
Jesus said to them, ‘Do you believe that I am able to do this?’ They said to
Him, ‘Yes, Lord’” (Matt. 9:28, NASB). Jesus conditioned His healing of these
two blind men based on their answer.

The fact that God is able to do something does not unconditionally guarantee that He will

do it. It may be something He never intends to do, or which He will only do for those
who respond as He commands, as in the case of Jude 24.


The context of Jude 24 makes it clear that Jude is encouraging believers to look to
the One who can keep them from being deceived by false teachers:
“But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the
Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of
our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life [lit., ‘life to the age’]. And have mercy on
some, who are doubting; save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some
have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh” (Jude 20-23,
NASB).

To suggest that Jude in verse 24 unconditionally guarantees his readers would not be

deceived by false teachers, misinterprets the entire purpose of the letter. It was Jude’s
concern his readers would be deceived by the false teachers which prompted him to write
this brief letter in the first place (cf. vv. 3-4). In fact, Jude gives seven commands to
believers as guidance so that they would not be deceived:
· Earnestly contend (lit. “agonize”) for the faith (v. 3)

· Remember the teaching and warning of the apostles (v. 17)


· Build yourselves up in the most holy faith (v. 20)


· Pray in the Holy Spirit (v. 21)


· Keep yourselves in the love of God (v. 21)


· Wait anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus (v. 21)


· Show mercy to those doubting (vv. 22-23)


Now to say that one can disobey these directives and yet, at the same time be kept from

stumbling into doctrinal and moral error, is to believe God will act contrary to His Word.
There is no doubt that a believer may experience victory over doctrinal and moral
corruption, because God is ready, willing, and able to sustain us through the tests we face
(1 Cor. 10:13). The question is not whether He is able to keep us from stumbling, rather,
will we continue to look to Him in faith and be obedient to His Word.

Since Jude 24 supports his overall argument i will stop here and due to the 8000 character limit i can't continue. I hope we're going to have a part two of this.




KeytarHero

Pro

As this is my final round, I will not put forth any new arguments, I will simply respond to some of the Instigator's points.

I think it is very bad theology to say that our personal sanctification was not completely accomplished at Calvary. Why else did Jesus go to the cross but to save us? In fact, on the cross Jesus cried out "it is finished." What is finished? The work of salvation, of course. By not believing we are saved for all time, the Instigator believes that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not enough to save us, and that Jesus is not powerful enough to keep us from falling. These are very dangerous beliefs, indeed.

Again, the Instigator keeps returning to his claim that a believer can walk away from his own salvation. Even if this is true, by walking away, you are not losing your salvation. You are giving it up. This does not affirm the resolution, which is that "a child of God can't fall." There is nothing a genuine believer can do to lose their salvation (again, Jesus said there is only one sin that will not be forgiven, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit -- a sin no genuine believer would ever commit), also God will never take His salvation away. A believer can not lose his or her salvation.

Of course God will not force us to never stumble. Stumbling is a part of life and it helps us grow as believers and as human beings. However, God has the power not to let His children fall so far as to "lose" their salvation. God will always provide the way out of temptation. The people the Instigator quotes may have fallen, but they were still God's children and God forgave them their sin. David did not lose his salvation by committing adultery and having her husband killed -- nothing in the text indicates that. In fact, David was once called a man after God's own heart (1 Sam. 13:14).

God's character is one of unconditional love. God will not force us to do anything we don't want to do. I'm not convinced we can simply leave the fold and be lost forever, because as Jesus has said God will go looking for us (Luke 15:4). But even if we could, that would not be losing our salvation. That would, essentially, be giving it back. David committed murder and adultery (and rape), and yet he was still one of God's children. He cried out to God for forgiveness and God forgave him. If murder, adultery, and rape aren't enough for David to lose his salvation, then what is enough?

Only one sin will not be forgiven, which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That's a sin no genuine believer would ever commit. So we can see that besides God actually telling us that no sin can be unforgiven, and that no one can snatch us out of His hand, then it seems clear that no one can lose their salvation. Whether they leave it of their own free will is another matter, but even if they could, it would not be "losing" their salvation.

I thank the Instigator for issuing this challenge.
Debate Round No. 5
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
My heart is open, Dan. I am fully willing to change my views if I see my own views are in error. Brad and Ahijah are not, and I don't think you would be, either. I have been saved since my youth, and the views I hold now are not the views I held then because my faith is ever evolving and God is continuing to show me which of my views are in error and I change them accordingly. You did not offer an answer to some of my questions, and left some of my evidences alone without responding to them. I have no choice but to continue believing the way I do about eternal security because you could not present good enough evidence to the contrary.
Posted by DAN123 5 years ago
DAN123
no keytarhero, you're the one who should open your heart
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Also, Ahijah vote bombed.
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Brad, I trust God will one day soften your heart to be open to the possibility that you don't know everything, and therefore could be wrong in some of your beliefs.
Posted by ChristianDebaterBrad 5 years ago
ChristianDebaterBrad
KeytarHero - I won't be persuaded on this issue, so reading you arguments is a waste of my time actually.
Posted by ChristianDebaterBrad 5 years ago
ChristianDebaterBrad
I'm saying that just because someone becomes a Christian doesn't mean they are guaranteed to go to heaven. Paul was worried about losing his salvation if he didn't keep fighting the good fight.

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1Cor. 9:27
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Brad, I don't understand your comments. Are you saying a Christian wouldn't believe in eternal security?

I am a Christian, and I believe in eternal security. If you would read my arguments, you would understand why.
Posted by ChristianDebaterBrad 5 years ago
ChristianDebaterBrad
Well I guess they could be a fallen away Christian, although you don't HAVE to debate a Christian for someone to take the pro side of the debate.
Posted by ChristianDebaterBrad 5 years ago
ChristianDebaterBrad
Rule: Whoever wants to accept this debate should be a christian!

How can a Christian take the pro side of this argument? Your rule is absurd.
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Dan, it's the 24th verse of Jude. Jude has only one chapter, so writing Jude 24 is a perfectly acceptable way of writing in (and in most scholarly works I've read, that's how it's usually written).
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
DAN123KeytarHeroTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: KH had a more theologically sound argument.
Vote Placed by Ahijah 5 years ago
Ahijah
DAN123KeytarHeroTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: If man can't fall. We are all wasting time here in debating the Word of God. Our being here proves we can lose our salvation. And I believe Dan has used the Bible to prove his arguments.