The Instigator
TheHunter
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
rogue
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The story of Jesus Christ is immoral and unjust in its core.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/16/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,463 times Debate No: 26252
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

TheHunter

Pro

When I say, "in its core," I'm referring to Jesus Christ of Nazareth living a life resisting sin and dying for our sins in order for us to be able to enter those pearly gates of Heaven.

I am not a believer, I am an atheist. I would expect my opponent to be a believer, though they obviously don't have to be.






      • This round will be for acceptance, only.







      • This is not to be a debate over semantics.







      • This debate is primarily aimed to debate the reason for the existence of Jesus Christ of Nazareth (As depicted by the Christian faith).







      • Dropped arguments are to be counted as concessions if they are presented to be drops and are ignored again.






My opponent is to expect a thoroughly explained warrant for my claim and I would appreciate a lengthy and well thought-out reply from my opponent.
Any other specifics can be cleared up in the comment section!

rogue

Con

With the risk of misinterpreting the resolution and losing, I will accept a debate that I am guessing most people will not expect me to argue this side of since I am an atheist.
Debate Round No. 1
TheHunter

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent for accepting the debate, and welcome the readers & judges. "Welcome to a (debate) of faith based humor, and Christian conversation."~Bill Maher :-P

First off, let's define the 2 key terms.

Immoral: Violating moral principles; not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics.
Unjust: Not based on or behaving according to what is right and fair.

Now, in order for us to debate the morality of the Jesus story, one must first understand the purpose for his presence. Why did Jesus walk the earth?

According to the bible, (Matthew 1:21-23) "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

And according to Luke (Luke 1:78-79) "Through the tender mercy of our God, With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us; {79} To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, To guide our feet into the way of peace."


I can go on and on with the redundancy but it's fairly obvious. For those who believe, God sent Jesus Christ of Nazareth to forgive the sins of the people, show them that it could be done to live life pure, and be the light to which one must follow to get to heaven. It is precisely on these three issues that I find my stance of immorality and unjust practices.

Contention 1: The omnipotent and omnibenevolent God was Immoral for burdening a man with such a task.

The bible makes it very clear that God is Love & God is powerful. In fact it states, (John 4:8 NIV) "Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love." And (Luke 1:37) "For nothing is impossible with God."

Problem is, this story is everything but. God sent a mortal to the earth, 'his son,' in order to lead his people to a more prosperous life, a life in heaven. By way of blood loss resulting in hypovolemic shock, sepsis, dehydration, and asphyxiation while nailed to a cross. All of this after being beaten, mocked, spat on, and flogged.

I raise the question: Is it immoral for a being who loves his creations, and can literally do anything, to allow for something like this to happen? Of course it is. When you can snap your fingers or clap your hands and create the sun, it is very plausible for you to make a route where your creations can make it to heaven without such cruelty. Thus resulting in the story of Jesus being an immoral one.

But how is it unjust?

Contention 2: The story of Jesus violates the principles of forgiveness, unjustly.

I can accept your jail time for you, but I couldn't rid you of your natural guilt. I also could say sorry for you to someone else, but they wouldn't feel like you were. Vicarious redemption through sacrifice is unjust, because it attempts to takes away personal responsibility. There is no sense of accomplishment and betterment is to be reached from a 3rd party forgiving you for something you've done to someone else. This is the reason for personal apology, and the principle behind forgiveness. The intent of an apology is not just to console the speaker-- it's two-fold. Apologies are for the person you've wronged as much (if not more) than for your own conscience. Jesus, however, taught that the true forgiveness does not resonate among the people in the altercation, but between the wrong doer and himself/God. The principle behind forgiveness is that it deals with both parties, not an involved person and an outside person. Vicarious redemption is unjust. It rids us of our personal responsibility to deal with real life scenarios, especially when the altercation is between a Christian and a non-Christian. Now, they can, of course, apologize. I'll even grant that they are told not to violate the personal freedoms of others to begin, but that doesn't eliminate vicarious redemption if/when they do. Christians are taught that they don't have to, God will handle it, Jesus will rid you of your sins. Taking away the charitable language, it's scapegoating. Pile all of the sins of your tribe on a goat, drive the goat into the desert to die of dehydration and starvation and you feel you've washed away the sins of the tribe. An abolition of personal responsibility.

Contention 3: It's an unfair standard.

Unjust, not based on or behaving according to what is right and fair. Jesus, a man sent to lead a perfect lifestyle and sacrifice to a grueling end to set the standard on how life should be lived.

There is a reason no one sets their goals for the one mile at 60 seconds. There is a reason no one is determined to walk around holding 10,000 lbs in their arms. And there is a reason that no one is determined to flap their arms until they fly across the room. It's an impossible and unfair standard to hold someone to, and it isn't right to expect it accomplished. If someone told you to try it every day of your life, ridiculing you when you couldn't achieve it, it would be considered immoral and unjust― exactly for the same reason the Jesus standard should be. To make something sick and order it to be well an unjust solution to an unfair problem. An immoral, unjust impossible standard sent to earth by the impossible, immoral, unjust author of sin―God.

A debate inspired by the words of Bill Maher, Christopher Hitchens, and Richard Dawkins.

rogue

Con

rogue forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
TheHunter

Pro

I extend my arguments..
rogue

Con

rogue forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
TheHunter

Pro

Is there anyone else interested in the topic?
rogue

Con

rogue forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
TheHunter

Pro

I extend my arguments.
rogue

Con

rogue forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by rogue 4 years ago
rogue
You comment below clarified a bit. I don't think I can get any more before the second round. Can't wait!
Posted by Shifter 4 years ago
Shifter
Jesus of Nazareth was quite moral, he supported rights of people, love and tolerance over hate, and everyone is worthy of being saved (although the conditions are a bit immoral). The religion he supported was immoral due to it's intolerance, justification of genocide and mass murder, sexist, etc. But Jesus himself could be the poster boy of morality.
Posted by TheHunter 4 years ago
TheHunter
"With the risk of misinterpreting the resolution and losing, I will accept a debate that..."

Rogue, what do you need clarified?
Posted by TheHunter 4 years ago
TheHunter
No, I am not aiming to debate the evidence of Jesus' life. The moral of the story is unjust & immoral in my eyes. Sorry for the confusion, I will post my case in the morning!
Posted by Smithereens 4 years ago
Smithereens
a few things:
is this 'core' life you speak of the version of the story being debated?
What do you want to debate? evidence for Jesus or morality of his life?
Posted by TheHunter 4 years ago
TheHunter
I outlined what was to be debated about in order for the challenger to have to debate the topic at hand. There are some very clever people on DDO, I was covering my own behind. If you believe the moral behind the story of JC of Nazareth to be moral & just, accept the debate.
Posted by philochristos 4 years ago
philochristos
I'm not sure I understand what the debate is supposed to be about. On the one hand, you say it's a debate over whether "the story of Jesus Christ is immoral and unjust in its core." But then you say, "This debate is primarily aimed to debate the reason for the existence of Jesus Christ of Nazareth." Those seem like two different topics to me. How do they relate?
No votes have been placed for this debate.