The Instigator
TheWORDisLIFE
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
dsjpk5
Con (against)
Winning
19 Points

The teaching of "the Laws being done away with" by Catholics & Christians is FALSE

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
dsjpk5
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/15/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 691 times Debate No: 75343
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (16)
Votes (6)

 

TheWORDisLIFE

Pro

The doctrine that "the Laws of God are done away with" is not according to the Scriptures. We are still commanded by God and Christ, to keep all the Laws.

Rules of debate:

1. Challenger MUST be a Christian or Catholic.

2. Challenger MUST use the Bible ONLY as evidence.

3. Challenger CANNOT change the topic of the talking point.

4. Challenger CANNOT change rules of debate.

*If any of the above rules are disobeyed, it will result in PRO automatically losing this debate.

Arguments:

R1 - Acceptance and agreement only, of the five statues listed above.

R2 - Arguments/Refutes

R3 - Arguments/Refutes

R4 - Arguments/Refutes

R5 - Concluding statements


If you have any questions pertaining to the topic of the debate, please ask them in the comment section before accepting this debate.

*NOTE: I will not change the rules of the debate nor will I make any alterations to the discussion of this debate.
dsjpk5

Con

I accept and agree with the five statuses above.
Debate Round No. 1
TheWORDisLIFE

Pro

*Just a note; I’m using the KJV 1611 with Apocrypha Bible.

I’m going to open my case with Matthew 5:17-19 to see what Christ had to say about the Laws of The Most High. Then I will post a few verses that Christians or Catholics (same thing) like to use to say the Laws of God are done away with.

Matthew 5:17

[17] Thinke not that I am come to destroy the lawe or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

So Christ tells us, out of His own mouth, that we shouldn’t even think that He came to destroy the Law of Moses, or the Prophets teaching the Law. Christ said, “I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” So now let’s see with a precept, what Christ came to fulfill.

Luke 24:44 And hee said vnto them, These are the words which I spake vnto you, while I was yet with you, ty all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, & in the Prophets, and in the Psalmes concerning me.

So Christ came to fulfill what was written in the Law of Moses. The only Law that Christ did away with was the Law of animal sacrifice because Christ was our sacrifice, He is the Lamb.

Hebrews 10:4-5; 8-9

[4] For it is not possible that the blood of Bulles and of Goats, should take away sinnes.

[5] Wherefore when hee commeth into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared mee:

[8] Aboue when hee said, Sacrifice, and offering, and burnt offerings, and offering for sinne thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein, which are offered by the Law:

[9] Then said he, Loe, I come to doe thy will (O God:) He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Matthew 5:18-19

[18] For verily I say vnto you, Till heauen and earth passe, one iote or one title, shall in no wise passe from the law, till all be fulfilled.

“Till heaven and earth pass, one jote or one tittle, shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Has heaven and earth passed yet? No, we are still on this earth under heaven, this earth has not passed away yet. So why is it that Christians and Catholics teach that the Laws are done away with when Christ said, “Till heaven and earth pass, one jote or one tittle, shall in NO wise pass from the law,”? “till all be fulfilled.” What is to be fulfilled? Back to Luke 24:44.

Luke 24:44 And hee said vnto them, These are the words which I spake vnto you, while I was yet with you, ty all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, & in the Prophets, and in the Psalmes concerning me.

[19] Whosoeuer therfore shall breake one of these least commaundements, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdome of heauen: but whosoeuer shall doe, and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdome of heauen.

Christ said whoever breaks ONE of the least commandments and teaches men that it’s okay to break the least commandments, he will not get to the Kingdom, but whoever keeps the commandments, the Laws of God, and teaches them to men, shall receive the Kingdom.


*These are some of the main verse Christians/Catholics like to pull to say the Laws of God are destroyed.


Romans 6:14
For sinne shall not haue dominion ouer you, for yee are not vnder the Law, but vnder Grace.

What is Grace?

Titus 2:11-12

[11] For the grace of God that bringeth saluati!3;, hath appeared to all men,

[12] Teaching vs that denying vngodlinesse and worldly lusts we should liue soberly, righteously and godly in this present world,

Grace is an extended period of time, a grace period. God gave us grace or an extended period of time to return to HIS Laws and become righteous because in the Old Covenant, there was no repentance. If you were in the midst of Idolatry, homosexuality, bestiality, etc… you would immediately be put to death.

Righteous according to Deuteronomy 6:25, is observing to do all the commandments. So how do you live righteously, soberly and godly? By keeping the commandments of God; by doing exactly as God tells you to do.

Now let’s jump down a verse to see if because we are under grace we should no longer keep the commandments.

Romans 6:15 - What then? shal we sinne, because wee are not vnder the Law, but vnder Grace? God forbid.

“God forbid.” – meaning NO! Now, what is sin? Christians/Catholics say that sin is doing anything that goes against God, which is true, but that could be interpreted many ways. So let’s see how the Bible defines “sin”.

1 John 3:4 - Whosoeuer committeth sinne, transgresseth also the lawe: for sinne is the transgression of the law.

So “sin” is the transgression of the Law; sin is breaking the Laws of God.

Romans 7:6 But now wee are deliuered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serue in newnesse of spirit, and not in the oldnesse of the letter.

Christ delivered us from death because in the OT, there was no sacrifice for certain sins (homosexuality, bestiality, adultery, rape, murder, etc…), you would have to pay that sin with your life being put to death. Now through Christ, God has given us repentance. If we are in the midst of homosexuality, we can repent and return to the Laws of The Most High God.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed vs from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for vs: for it is written, Cursed is euery one that hangeth on tree:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, which is every one that hangeth on a tree or cross. The cross is referenced as a Tree, the precepts are: Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29; 1Peter 2:24. So Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law and He was “made a curse for us” – meaning He was hung on the cross for our sins. So because there was no sacrifice nor repentance for people in the OT, they were instantly put to death.

Precept to Galatians 3:13: Deuteronomy 21:22-23.

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 [22] And if a man haue committed a sinne worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: [23] His body shall not remaine all night vpon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day: for he that is hanged, is accursed of God: that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giueth thee for an inheritance.

So the curse of the law that Christ redeemed us from in Galatians 3:13, is the curse that would be upon us if we committed a sin that there was no sacrifice for in the Old Covenant, which was being hung on the cross.

Galatians 3:24-25 [24] Wherefore the Law was our Schoolemaster to bring vs vnto Christ, that we might be iustified by Faith.

The “Schoolmaster” was the law of sacrifice to bring us to the sacrifice of Christ. Christ is the Lamb (1 Peter 1:19), He was our sacrifice for sins. “that we might be justified by faith.” – so we need to believe or have faith that Christ died for our sins, now, does not mean that you just keep faith alone? No, faith without works is dead – James 2:17. The works are the commandments according to James 2:21-24. Whenever God tells us to do something, it is a commandment.

[25] But after that Faith is come, we are no longer vnder a Schoolemaster.

Now that we have faith, we believe that Jesus is the Lamb, the sacrifice of sins, we are no longer under the animal sacrifice – the schoolmaster.

Now, here are some Scriptures that contradict what Christians/Catholics teach.

1 Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

So everything that Christ said and that the Prophets wrote in the Bible, are the Laws of God.

2 Kings 17:37 And the Statutes, and the Ordinances, and the Law, and the Commandement which he wrote for you, ye shall obserue to doe for euermore, and ye shall not feare other gods:

So we are to do the commandments, keep the commandments FOREVER.

John 14:15 If ye loue me, keepe my commandements.

Christ said if you love Him, keep his commandments; the commandments of God

1 John 5:3 For this is the loue of God, that we keepe his commandements, and his commandements are not grieuous.

So if you say you love God, you should be keeping HIS Laws, this includes unclean foods. Unclean foods is part of the Law of The Most High God.

Luke 2:22 And when the dayes of her purification according to the law of Moses, were accomplished, they brought him to Hierusalem, to present him to the Lord,

So when Mary had Jesus, she was following and was under the Law of Moses. Mind you now, this is the New Testament.

2 John 6 And this is loue, that wee walke after his Commandements. This is the Commandement, that as yee haue heard from the beginning, yee should walke in it.

John even says to walk after the commandments of Christ, which are the commandments of God. “This is the Commandement, that as yee haue heard from the beginning, yee should walke in it.” – As we heard from the beginning or from the book of Genesis because Genesis means beginning. The Laws were established in the book of Genesis. The creation of the Sabbath day, the 7th day (Saturday) was the 1st commandment created by The Most High God. Sunday is the 1st day of the week, that is not the Sabbath. So the Laws stated from Genesis to Revelation, is what we should be walking in, excluding animal sacrifice of course.

1 John 2:6 He that sayeth he abideth in him, ought himselfe also so to walke, euen as he walked.

If you say you are a follower of Christ, you should walk as He walked; Christ kept the commandments and if we follow Christ, we also should be keeping the commandments.

Just to inform everyone, when Christ came on the scene, the Israelites were under the Old Covenant, the New Covenant was not written yet. So everything Jesus Christ and the other Prophets quoted, were from the Old Covenant, which means the Israelites were still under the OT when Christ came on the scene.

dsjpk5

Con

I will begin my rebuttal by quoting a man by the name of Faustus:

"If one of the Nazareans, or Symmachians, as they are sometimes called, were arguing with me from these words of Jesus that he came not to destroy the law, I should find some difficulty in answering him. For it is undeniable that, at his coming, Jesus was both in body and mind subject to the influence of the law and the prophets. Those people, moreover, whom I allude to, practise circumcision, and keep the Sabbath, and abstain from swine's flesh and such like things, according to the law, although they profess to be Christians. They are evidently misled as well as you, by this verse in which Christ says that he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. It would not be easy to reply to such opponents without first getting rid of this troublesome verse. But with you I have no difficulty, for you have nothing to go upon; and instead of using arguments, you seem disposed, in mere mischief, to induce me to believe that Christ said what you evidently do not yourself believe him to have said. On the strength of this verse you accuse me of dullness and evasiveness, without yourself giving any indication of keeping the law instead of destroying it. Do you too, like a Jew or a Nazarean, glory in the obscene distinction of being circumcised? Do you pride yourself in the observance of the Sabbath? Can you congratulate yourself on being innocent of swine's flesh? Or can you boast of having gratified the appetite of the Deity by the blood of sacrifices and the incense of Jewish offerings? If not, why do you contend that Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it?" [1]

By quoting something other than the Bible, I have violated one of the rules of the debate, and as such...

I HAVE JUST WON THE DEBATE!

But don't just take my word for it, let's go over the pertinent rules my opponent created in round one:

The second rule clearly says that I am only allowed to use the Bible as evidence, but I have just used a quote from something other than the Bible. This is a clear violation.

Now let's look at the rule concerning any possible violations by me:

"*If any of the above rules are disobeyed, it will result in PRO automatically losing this debate."

PRO automatically losing this debate.

The rules couldn't be more clear. I broke the rules, so my opponent automatically loses.

Please vote Con.

Sources:

1. http://www.newadvent.org...
Debate Round No. 2
TheWORDisLIFE

Pro

Thank you CON for pointing out my mistake. I forefeit the debate due to the error I made in the rules. I will redo this debate.

Vote CON
dsjpk5

Con

My opponent has conceded.
Debate Round No. 3
dsjpk5

Con

I agree... Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
Debate Round No. 5
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@AllahoAkbar

It is possible not to get drunk, that is, if you are responsible and can control yourself. When we break bread, we drink wine, but we don't drink wine to get drunk. Christ drank wine, so we can drink wine but Christ never got drunk off of wine, so we don't get drunk off of wine. I don't think you understand Matthew 5:20. Matthew 5:20 goes back to the Pharisees teaching the Law and telling the Israelites that we must keep the Law, they were teaching the Law, but they themselves were not keeping any of the Laws. So christ is saying that we must do better than the Pharisees when we teach the Law of God, we must not only teach the Law, but we must keep the Law. As for drugs, we don't take them because it is sin. Only a person that is not a sincere follower of Christ gets addicted to wine and/or drugs, but we real Israelites, we do as Christ does, else wise, we will be put to death and not see the Kingdom.
Posted by AllahoAkbar 1 year ago
AllahoAkbar
@TheWORDisLIFE "We can still drink wine, but not to get drunk" ?? is it possible? always? so can we take drugs without getting addicted to it? I don't think so.
and when you will fulfill all the great commandments and get circumcised? remember (Matthew 5:20) "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." AMEN.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
I wish CON would have made a little effort to at least try to debate, but instead he took the easy way out, but hey, it is what it is, I (PRO) made a mistake, CON caught it and took the easy win. Wish you would've at least attempted to make an argument, but like I said, it is what it is. Good luck in your future debates CON.
Posted by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
Thanks go to my opponent for bringing this debate to a quick end once he knew it was over. I wish him well.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@AllahoAkbar

We can still drink wine, but not to get drunk, that's transgressing the Law of The Most High God. As for swines, that's a big NO. It's unclean. It should be common sense to Christians that pork is filthy. Pork, if I am correct, is a pig or comes from a pig. A pig eats anything; it'll eat it's own feces, that's just NASTY AS HELL! lol
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@Stefy

Correct, that is why I said Christians OR Catholics because they are the same. If I would have said Christians AND Catholics I would be showing a separation between the same religion. Therefore indicating they are two different religions. But they are not they are the same religion.
Posted by AllahoAkbar 1 year ago
AllahoAkbar
Great Debate, it is about time all of those swine eating wine drinking christians get circumcised, Lol.
Posted by Stefy 1 year ago
Stefy
kasmic: Yeah but didnt he fulfil it when he got crucified and rose from the dead and stuff ( Im bot trying to argue the point im just confused im not to dedicated this debate im just curious)
Posted by Stefy 1 year ago
Stefy
Um excuse me? What do you mean Catholic OR Chrisian? Catholics are a sect Christian. one that actually pre dates all protestant and eastern orthodox sects.
Posted by kasmic 1 year ago
kasmic
Mathew 5: 17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by kingkd 1 year ago
kingkd
TheWORDisLIFEdsjpk5Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro Conceded
Vote Placed by lannan13 1 year ago
lannan13
TheWORDisLIFEdsjpk5Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited.
Vote Placed by tejretics 1 year ago
tejretics
TheWORDisLIFEdsjpk5Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Concession.
Vote Placed by tajshar2k 1 year ago
tajshar2k
TheWORDisLIFEdsjpk5Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF by Con.
Vote Placed by kasmic 1 year ago
kasmic
TheWORDisLIFEdsjpk5Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Concession by pro.
Vote Placed by Varrack 1 year ago
Varrack
TheWORDisLIFEdsjpk5Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro conceded.