The teaching of the Trinity have Confused Christian who believe in it.
Debate Rounds (3)
So, you said The Bible does not support the Trinity. Well, since you said the Bible that includes both the Old and New Testament.
(I apologize for my lack of quotations, my computer seems to be broken at the moment.)
A better argument would have been that the Old Testament does not support the Trinity. (It still does, but it would have been a harder debate). So, lets begin.
I will reference a number of Scripture that references the Trinity.
(1.) In Genesis 1:1-2 we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
This part of the Scripture clearly speaks of the Holy Spirit. A member of the three part Trinity. It talks of God, and then it says The Spirit of God.
(2.) "Let us make Mankind in our image" is another famous quotation that references the Trinity. Some would say that it's said in the form of the royal "we". However, given the earlier portion of the Creation account that talks of The Spirit of God we can infer that it was actually God conversing with the other two of the Trinity.
(3.) "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" [Matthew 28:19].
(4.) "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" [2 Corinthians 13:14].
So, I have given you four examples. Two from the Old Testament and Two from the New Testament. Be reminded Pro, you said that it wasn't found in the Bible. The Bible consists of Old and New Testaments.
I would also like to remind you that this debate isn't over if the Trinity makes sense to you or not, or whether or not Jesus was the Messiah/Son of God. Its purely over whether or not we can find mention of the Trinity in the Bible. Nowhere does it explicitly say "God is three different aspects" its inferred, implied, and shown through the language, and the plural nature of God's name. Then the later New Testament which has Jesus speaking of the Holy Spirit and the Triune God. I eagerly wait for your arguments.
once you truly understand what they are, you will see that they are not individual being, but a simple aspect of one true individual.
So what is the HOLY SPIRIT?
IS it a being with its own individual mind, and will? lets see what the Bible have to say about this holy spirit and what it it.
Micah 3:8. As for me, I am filled with power by the spirit of Jehovah,
And with justice and might,
To tell to Jacob his revolt and to Israel his sin.
notice it say POWER BY the spirit OF Jehovah, this is a power that is being directed from one being into a human. NOT A LIVING BEING INFUSING WITH A HUMAN.
PSALM 104:30. If you send out your spirit, they are created,
And you renew the surface of the ground.
one being that is clearly in control, is sending out the spirit, or power, not an individual being.
Now let me get down to some actual facts.
In the Bible, the word "spirit" is translated from the Hebrew word ruR42;ach and the Greek word pneuR42;ma. Most often, those words refer to God"s active force, or holy spirit.
Now remember Genesis 1:2 the holy spirit moving over the water. we can know what the holy spirit really is by viewing how it was used in the Bible.
Habakkuk 2:19 Woe to the one who says to a piece of wood, "Awake!"
Or to a speechless stone, "Wake up! Instruct us!"
Look! It is overlaid in gold and silver,
And there is no breath at all within it.
A piece of wood, speechless stone, in other words something that has no life in it. AND THERE IS NO BREATH AT ALL WITHIN IT.
so clearly we know the word BREATH is of course life.
Genesis 8:1 But God gave attention to Noah and to all the wild animals and domestic animals that were with him in the ark, and God caused a wind to blow over the earth, and the waters began to subside.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who has been born from the spirit."
Job 34: 14-15
14 If he fixes his attention on them,
If he gathers their spirit and breath to himself,
15 All humans would perish together,
And mankind would return to the dust.
Numbers 14:24 But because my servant CaR42;leb had a different spirit and kept following after me wholeheartedly, I will certainly bring him into the land where he went, and his offspring will take possession of it.
All of these meaning once thing that is invisible to humans, but its effects can clearly be seen by humans, like the wind, similarly to Gods spirit.
AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
the Bible also consider Gods Holly spirit as his hands, and finger, something that he use to do his will.
Palms 8: 3 When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers,
The moon and the stars that you have prepared,
Palms 19:1 19 The heavens are declaring the glory of God;
The skies above proclaim the work of his hands.
Luke 11:20 But if it is by means of God"s finger that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.
compare Matthew 12:28. But if it is by means of God"s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.
Just as we humans us our hands and finger to do our work, God is using his holy spirit to do his work. Our hands and fingers does not work by itself, and it does not have a mind of its own.
God"s holy spirit operates only as he directs it.
Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!"
The Bible also compares God"s spirit to water and associates it with such things as faith and knowledge. These comparisons all point to the impersonal nature of the holy spirit.
Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour out water on the thirsty one
And flowing streams on the dry ground.
I will pour out my spirit on your offspring
And my blessing on your descendants.
Acts 6:5 What they said was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith and holy spirit, as well as Philip, ProchR42;o"rus, Ni"caR42;nor, TiR42;mon, ParR42;me"nas, and Nic"o"laR42;us, a proselyte of Antioch.
2 Corinthian 6:6 by purity, by knowledge, by patience, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy,
The Bible gives the names of Jehovah God and of his Son, Jesus Christ; yet, nowhere does it name the holy spirit
I am Jehovah. That is my name;
I give my glory to no one else,
Nor my praise to graven images.
And look! you will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus.
When the Christian martyr Stephen was given a miraculous heavenly vision, he saw only TWO persons, not three. The Bible says: "He, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God"s glory and of Jesus standing at God"s right hand.
SO hear is one major block for con:
if you can explain this i give you credit.
But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God"s glory and of Jesus standing at God"s right hand,
This mean was given a vision by God himself, he saw Heaven, But he saw Gods in his throng and Jesus was standing next to God.
And remember the Bible clearly identify Jehovah God and Jesus Christ in the Bible. they both have there individual name. No mention of Holy spirit.
The holy spirit is clearly not a individual being with its separate mind and will. it is the power of one God.
One more fact.
Fact: The King James version of the Bible includes at 1 John 5:7, 8 the words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth." However, researchers have found that those words were not written by the apostle John and so do not belong in the Bible. Professor Bruce M. Metzger wrote: "That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain.""A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament.
I have proven that the Holy spirit is not a separate being with its individual mind, but that of the power of one individual God whose name is Jehovah.
"15 "If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. 17 That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn"t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you."
So, here we have Jesus (Member of the Trinity) saying that He will ask the Father (Member of the Trinity) to send a HELPER who will be the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit, Member of Trinity) .
He goes on to explain that He lives within us, and that the world can't accept Him because it doesn't see or know Him. He explicitly calls this "unintelligent force" a HIM. He directly states that it is an individual who is to be a helper to the Apostles. So, you're wrong. The Holy Spirit is an individual and a member of the Trinity. God is one, yet three different people. It's similar to a cube. It consists of six individual squares, yet it makes up one shape.
We human are given logic, we use it every single second of our life. i think its best to use it while we read the Bible, after all reading is just one thing, but understanding what you have read is even more important i believe.
Let me open one simple logical hidden view of spirit to begin with.
Now would you not agree that if this Holy spirit is indeed a individual being the Bible will have to distinguish it from the rest of the spirit in the Bible?
Because 1 King 22:21, 22
Then a spirit came forward and stood before Jehovah and said, "I will fool him." Jehovah asked him, "How will you do it?"22He replied, "I will go out and become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." So he said, "You will fool him, and what is more, you will be successful. Go out and do that."
By the way that was Satan talking to God, About what he intend to deal with Jesus, but notice he is called a spirit.
A spirit then carried me along and I heard behind me a great rumbling sound that said: "May the glory of Jehovah be praised from his place."
That was one of Gods angels, once again he is called a spirit.
All the demons are known is spirit, as well as the angles.
He makes his angels spirits, His ministers a consuming fire.
God is the one making these spirits, keep that in mind.
while we are reading the Bible we have to be able to identify PERSONIFICATION when we see one, and trust me if your not careful your understanding of the Bible can be completely different from the rest of the world.
Jesus did use the the holy spirit as a helper and even spoke of it as someone who is able to teach and bear witness even speak. But this was not the first time Jesus have done this.
Lets see the many other times Jesus have used such personification to get to us human to understand him.
In the book of Proverbs Jesus used the same type of personification, except this time it was with Wisdom.
True wisdom cries aloud in the street. It keeps raising its voice in the public squares.
21 At the corner of the busy streets it calls out. At the entrances of the city gates it says:
22"How long will you inexperienced ones love inexperience? How long will you ridiculers take pleasure in ridicule? And how long will you foolish ones hate knowledge?
23 Respond to my reproof. Then I will pour out my spirit for you; I will make my words known to you.24Because I called out, but you kept refusing, I stretched out my hand, but no one was paying attention,25You kept neglecting all my advice And rejecting my reproof.
This goes on until 8:36
So this is Wisdom, personify as a being who is able to talk and use spirit, it eve consider itself to have a spirit. if we where going along with your reasoning, would you not add this Wisdom to the Trinity? making four or more individual being being as one?
Same thing at Mt 11:19
The Son of man did come eating and drinking, but people say, "Look! A man who is a glutton and is given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners." All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works."
All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by all its children."
And sin is also said to rule like a king
To what end? So that just as sin ruled as king with death, so also undeserved kindness might rule as king through righteousness leading to everlasting life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
But sin, finding the opportunity afforded by the commandment, worked out in me covetousness of every sort, for apart from law sin was dead.
9 In fact, I was once alive apart from law. But when the commandment arrived, sin came to life again, but I died.
10 And the commandment that was to lead to life, this I found led to death.
11 For sin, finding the opportunity afforded by the commandment, seduced me and killed me through it.
I'm sure you and i can agree that Paul was not talking about sin being a person, as we can also agree with Wisdom and this Holy spirit.
The amount of personification that Jesus and Jehovah plus all the writers in the Bible used is tremendous, Because they where all trying to explain things they could not find words for, as we know knowledge in there time was limited.
At John 14:16-17 likewise with John"s account of Jesus" words regarding the holy spirit, his remarks must be taken in context. Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a "helper"
even tho i could have save me the trouble and bring this out, but, The Bible also said that Jehovah is a spirit
2 Co 3:17, 18
Now Jehovah is the Spirit, and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.
18 And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, exactly as it is done by Jehovah the Spirit.
God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."
So there you have it, this Spirit is in all means a simple features of Jehovah God. one must deny this if you are to believe the trinity, which i think will discredit the whole message of the Bible.
however i want to point out that you did not counter any of my previous point, you did not even bather, so they still stand, meaning so unless that is out of the way you are still unable to prove that this Holy spirit is indeed an individual being with it's own mind and will.
Con is clearly escaping my arguments and bring up other points, which i have counter so far, all of my point are still not yet counter.
Pro hasn't refuted my point in John. Any reader can logically see that Jesus is speaking of three individuals. God, Himself, and The Holy Spirit. My argument still stands, unrefuted.
No matter how many times Pro will try to warp a verse to fit his own ends the verse itself still stands. Jesus is referencing three individuals.
However, I too will throw verse after verse defending the Holy Spirit. Let's begin.
(1.) Matthew 28:19 New International Version (NIV)
"19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
-Once again, we have three individuals. The Bible is saying to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit. Not just The Father and The Son, but of another individual.
(2.) John 14:26 New International Version (NIV)
"26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
-So, here we have the Bible calling the Holy Spirit "The Advocate" who was sent by the father to teach things and to remind people of things that have been taught to them. Last time I checked, mindless forces can't teach people things. Only intelligent forces can. Also, it shows that the Holy Spirit was sent by God to teach people, He is also referred to as the Messenger throughout the New Testament, messengers carrying messages. I rest my case in this regard.
(3.) John 15:26 King James Version (KJV)
"26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
-Here is another time when this so called unintelligent force is referenced again with another title, "The Comforter" that is added to other titles like "The Messenger, The Advocate, etc" this gives further credence to my claim that the Holy Spirit is an intelligent aspect of God. His third side. Pro, unintelligent forces aren't given titles and have the ability to teach. The Spirit is an intelligent force.
(4.) Romans 8:26-27 New International Version (NIV)
"26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God"s people in accordance with the will of God."
Once again, we don't have the capitalization in the Bible as "the spirit" but the Spirit. This clearly shows that this is a intelligent member of the Trinity, it's giving the name of something. It says the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance to the will of God, here we have the Bible showing that the Spirit is an intelligent individual that can act. The key word is "intercedes" intercedes is to act on a person's behalf. In order to act at all one must be an intelligent individual able to control one's actions. If the Holy Spirit was just a power like you believe then it wouldn't be possible for it to intercede. It has to be intelligent in order for it to act. I rest my case.
(5.) 1 Peter 1 New International Version (NIV)
"1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God"s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance."
-The foreknowledge of God, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and to be obedient to Jesus Christ. Who are they referring to then Pro when they talk of the Spirit? If the Spirit wasn't an intelligent agent then this shouldn't be in the bible. If the Holy Spirit wasn't an intelligent agent then it wouldn't be able to do any "work" at all, now would it? Once again, the Scripture is speaking of three individuals, yet one God. Each one has a specific duty within the Trinity.
I will also expand on previous arguments below, as Pro still hasn't refuted them.
(1.) There is a plurality to God.
The Hebrew word for God is el in its singular form. The most common form used for God is elohim, which is plural in form. How can there be plural form used for only one God? Some suggest that the answer is found in the three persons of the Trinity. Others contend that the plural construct denotes a fullness of deity as opposed to plurality. I submit that both interpretations are correct. I"m getting ahead of myself now though. Rather than look at all the verses that use the plural elohim, let"s look at other verses that point to a plurality within the one God.
"Let us make man in our image" " Genesis 1:26, emphasis added.
"God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us""" " Genesis 3:22, emphasis added.
Some would say that God could be speaking to the angels in these verses, but that's simply not correct. God was speaking to co-creator(s) in these verses ("Let us make man""). Who could be a co-creator? Not the angels.
(2.) In Acts 5:3-4, we see the Holy Spirit being equated with God:
"Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."" [emphasis added]
Paul clearly and explicitly equated the Holy Spirit with God:
"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." " 2 Corinthians 3:17-18
Additional evidence of the deity of the Holy Spirit comes from the shared attributes of the deity. The Holy Spirit is:
Eternal (Heb. 9:14)
Omniscient (1 Cor. 2:10-11)
Omnipresent (Psa. 139:7)
Savior (Rom. 8:1-27)
In addition to the attributes above, we find the Holy Spirit was involved in creation (Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30), the incarnation (Matt. 1:18,20; Luke 1:35), and the resurrection (Rom. 1:4; 8:11). This is ample evidence to show that the Holy Spirit is God.
(3.) The Father is not the Holy Spirit: Once again, the first bit of evidence is given in Matthew 28:19 as discussed before. John 14:16, and 15:26 also remain as evidence that the Father and Holy Spirit are distinct persons. We also find Paul describing in Romans 8:26-27 that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us with the Father. If the Holy Spirit were the same person as the Father, he would not need to intercede with himself.
Now let"s address another Scripture that makes it clear that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three different persons. Luke 3:21-22 covers the baptism of Jesus Christ, "When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."" Each person is described separately here. First, note that Jesus was praying. If Oneness theology were correct, Jesus would be praying to Himself. Once again, that smacks of neurosis. Instead, Jesus was praying to the Father. As He did, the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus in a physical manifestation like a dove. The voice of the Father was then heard from Heaven, speaking to the Son. This highlights that each person of the Trinity is unique and separate.
I rest my case, and have done so with logic and finesse. VOTE CON!
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by bman77 1 year ago
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Reasons for voting decision: I couldn't understand what pro was trying to argue. Yes, the father, the son, and the holy spirit are one entity. Three parts of the same triangle. I'll explain: The father is God in heaven. The son is Jesus who died for our sins. The Holy spirit is God working in the world around us. They are all different beings who share the same mind.
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