The Instigator
Jamcke
Pro (for)
Winning
42 Points
The Contender
Im_always_right
Con (against)
Losing
31 Points

The traditional Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God is inconsistent.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/6/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,764 times Debate No: 4603
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (30)
Votes (23)

 

Jamcke

Pro

First and foremost, the intent of this debate is not to offend anyone, but more for personal clarification regarding the traditional Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God. As an agnostic theist, it seems to me that these traditional views are largely inconsistent for the following reason.

As I understand it, the traditional view of God by Christians, Muslims, and Jews is that God is A)omni benevolent (infinitely/perfectly good), B) omnipotent (all powerful), and C) capable of seeing all of time from beginning to end in a single glance. Also, I understand the traditional view of Satan as being omni malevolent (all evil/bad).

If God is omni benevolent, omnipotent, can see all of time in a single glance, and God created Satan/evil, then evil exists because of God. Therefore, evil would not exist without God, thus God cannot be ALL good.

How does it make sense to believe that God is perfectly good/righteous/pious if you believe that God created Satan/Evil and was capable of seeing the consequences of doing so before hand? I maintain that God cannot be omni benevolent if God created evil in the first place, and therefore that the traditional Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God is inconsistent.

My only prerequisites for the challenger are that they have an extensive understanding of biblical scripture so that citing the Bible won't be an issue, and that they argue from the the aforementioned premise that the traditional Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God is that God is omni benevolent, omnipotent, and capable of seeing all of time from beginning to end in a single glance.
Im_always_right

Con

I would like to thank my opponent in being clear about which religions, he is referring to.
I hope I am able to help at least a little.

I would like to say in my first round that, if no evil existed, could good exist?
Yin and yang, you loose one you loose both.
So if God hadn't made Satan, in the beginning, would he being all good, mean anything at all?

Most of what we consider evil is free will.

Consistently in all three religions, there is mention of another earlier being, in about the same time, as God.

When God made people, my Bible says
". . . Then God said "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground . . ."

Notice how he says WE and OUR, meaning there is more than just him creating people.

Here is a link to the Qur'an In the Muslim Qur'an (in English Koran):

http://quod.lib.umich.edu...
Debate Round No. 1
Jamcke

Pro

First off, thanks to my opponent for accepting this debate. If my opponent is unable to post any further arguments due to unforeseeable circumstances, I am willing to treat this as a one round debate for voting purposes, thereby eliminating my second round argument. I will however post a second round argument in the event my opponent can continue.

I don't believe that my opponent has refuted my stance in the first round. She addresses the nature of evil and other creations of God per the Bible / Qur'an, not that the traditional Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God is consistent.

The only possible refutation I can derive from her post would be that God did not create Satan. If this is the case, it would be inconsistent with the Bible / Qur'an because it is said that God created man in his image, meaning that man was given a soul. Satan was jealous of this because he felt it meant that God loved men more than the angels, and was eventually cast down from heaven as an eventual result.
Im_always_right

Con

God did not create evil. He created the ability to choose. When he made a rule he made the ability to break the rule. When the rule was broken, evil was created.

Man created evil. God did not create evil.
Debate Round No. 2
Jamcke

Pro

Perhaps my opponent misread my opening statement. I'll reiterate.

If God is omni benevolent, omnipotent, can see all of time in a single glance, and God created Satan/evil, then evil exists because of God. Therefore, evil would not exist without God, thus God cannot be ALL good.

How does it make sense to believe that God is perfectly good/righteous/pious if you believe that God created Satan/Evil and was capable of seeing the consequences of doing so before hand? I maintain that God cannot be omni benevolent if God created evil in the first place, and therefore that the traditional Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God is inconsistent.
Im_always_right

Con

I maintain that God cannot be omni benevolent if God created evil in the first place, and therefore that the traditional Christian/Muslim/Jewish view of God is inconsistent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I know you were annoyed by my mentioning the nature of evil before so I am sorry now, but you claim that God can't be all good if he created evil in the first place. This is not true. That is like saying there would be no criminals if there were no laws. On the surface it is true, but in fact there would still be rapists and murders, they just woulnd't be criminals. There would be no evil without God because He is the Good that is missing in the presence of Evil.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let me explain. Evil is the absence of God's will. God gave us free will and the ability to determine what we do with it. I have only ever gone to 9 Christian Churches and am not familiar with the predominate teaching of the Mosques or the Synagogues, but there are enough similarities I'm thinking they will be close to the same.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As free will was created, God's vision stopped being absolute. We had choices and we were free to make any and all choices. Nothing was predetermined anymore. God gave us the choice when he said, "do not eat of this tree" that command was free will . It was up to humans to choose to follow or not. All the teachings I have heard follow this. God did not know what we would do with that choice. Satan coming to tempt Eve he knew, but unless he specifically told Satan not to do so, evil did not yet exist anywhere. Eve created sin when she ate the fruit (if you completely believe the creation story as it is told in the Bible, which is another debate for another day)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I propose that God created the law that made evil possible, but the creation of evil was done by Eve and then Adam. At that moment, the moment Eve took the fruit, evil was born. There is nothing in the teachings I have learned that says that God can foresee man's choices.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I know you will say, "But what about all the times where the Bible makes predictions that later it seems to say did come true? How is this possible if God doesn't know what we will do."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

God takes free will away sometimes. Or rather as we can see from the Story of Jonah and the story of Moses and the story of Nebakanezer, God makes the alternative to doing what He wants so unpleasant that He gets His way. Kind of like when Mom lets me choose if I want to do the dishes or mow the lawn. Now I don't like to wash dishes, but Oklahoma in July is unpleasant for lawn mowing, so of course I would rather wash the dishes. She gets her way, but I still ‘get' to choose.
Debate Round No. 3
30 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Xera 8 years ago
Xera
"Humans do not need to commit murder to know its bad."

Humans need an understanding of /why/ it is bad, and how it can cause damage. In a world where murder does not happen, there is no fear that it could affect /self/. If none know the pain of murder, there would be no understanding that it is bad. So in fact, humans do need to experience that murder /exists/ and can happen to self to know that it is bad. Are faeries good or evil? since they do not exists we can not say for sure. If an entity, thought, or idea lacks existence then it can be neither good nor bad.

ON another note Cq09, I would someday like to debate you on the issue of can good exist without the presence of evil. I think it would be interesting. I have another debate going on right now, and then I am going to need to take CiRro up on his offer. I don't have enough time to actually devote to two debates, but if you are amenable, then someday I think I would like to.
Posted by Cg09 8 years ago
Cg09
by the way man didnt create evil either
Posted by Cg09 8 years ago
Cg09
uh....i dont know what makes you think that God created evil, he did create Satan, but! in Genesis it describes Satan and his original position in heaven, as a high appointed angel, he turned evil. All angels have free will, clearly proven by what happened in Noah's day when the angels came out of heaven took human bodies and then married women and gave birth to the Nephelum. Now God didnt create them with the desire to leave heaven and create this race of violent "freaks." Angels are given the same free will just as you an I have the free will to whether or not to serve or even believe in God. Now i think the whole Con's argument about need of Yin and Yang is completely false, and poorly supported. Humans do not need to commit murder to know its bad. if noone commited a crime and we lived in a utopian society, would we be oblivious to the fact that there are certain wrong actions? Of course not! I understand the Pro's confusion on this matter and I'm sorry that the Con couldnt better answer your questions or statements with an obviously more reliable and logical standpoint.
Posted by Xera 8 years ago
Xera
InquireTruth did a better job of explaining the nature of evil than I did when I'm Always Right asked me what evil is. :D. I think I am glad she took this debate, even if I tried to talk her out of it at first. I wish I had thought of the hole analogy.
Posted by InquireTruth 8 years ago
InquireTruth
Well, I think we often look at evil in a distorted manner. I do not believe that God is the direct author of evil. Rather His will made it possible. I tend to see evil as the mere absence of good, similar to a hole. A hole cannot exist in and of itself, a hole is only defined by the absence of something else. That is what I see evil to be - the absence of good. You and I both know that it is an exhaustive subject and this comment section does not offer the space for its discussion. All I can say is that evil was not created by God, only made possible by his will. C.S. Lewis puts it best in his analogy of a mother and children in his book, Mere Christianity.
Posted by Casiopia 8 years ago
Casiopia
Hello Inquire Truth,
Thanks for the response...if God didn't create evil, than who or rather what did?
Posted by InquireTruth 8 years ago
InquireTruth
Hey Casiopia, I am familiar with the Hebrew word and know very well that it CAN mean moral evil. I was referring to its use in the respective contexts of the passages puck mentioned. If one is to apply a proper hermeneutic, those passages could not mean what puck assumes them to mean.
Posted by Casiopia 8 years ago
Casiopia
To Inquire Truth
"The Hebrew word Ra ah refers to destruction and calamity and not moral evil."

Ra can be used to apply to natural disasters, but it may have a broader application than natural disasters, for the word is an extremely common word used of evil generally: It is used of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:9), of the evil of mankind that brought the judgement of the flood (Gen 6:5), and of the evil of the men of Sodom (Gen 13:13). It is used to say, "Depart from evil and do good" (Ps.34:14) and to speak of the wrong of those who call evil good and good evil (Isa 5:20) and to the sin of those whose "feet run to evil" (Isa 59:7) Dozens of other times throughout the Old Testament it refers to moral evil or sin.
Posted by InquireTruth 8 years ago
InquireTruth
Puck, those passages within their respective contexts are talking about judgement. The Hebrew word Ra ah refers to destruction and calamity and not moral evil. God is not saying I have created evil, but rather I have created this disaster that befell you because I'm judging you. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Posted by jurist24 8 years ago
jurist24
I don't think it's necessary to try to define or quantify "evil" here. The point is that there is a question of validity: why would one being, who represents one side of an argument, create a being that supposedly he knows will eventually represent the other side? There's no need to talk about the presence/absence of good in order to explain evil.

This might be helpful:
- Assume first that democrats oppose everything that republicans favor
- Assume further (as challenging as this may be) that John McCain is omniscient and that he nonetheless created Barack Obama
- If McCain was truly omniscient at the time he created Obama, why did he create him in the first place?
23 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Krazzy_Player 3 years ago
Krazzy_Player
JamckeIm_always_rightTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by B2BCHAOS 8 years ago
B2BCHAOS
JamckeIm_always_rightTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by padfo0t 8 years ago
padfo0t
JamckeIm_always_rightTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Oolon_Colluphid 8 years ago
Oolon_Colluphid
JamckeIm_always_rightTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by That1gurl38me 8 years ago
That1gurl38me
JamckeIm_always_rightTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by currie_jean 8 years ago
currie_jean
JamckeIm_always_rightTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by brittwaller 8 years ago
brittwaller
JamckeIm_always_rightTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by attrition 8 years ago
attrition
JamckeIm_always_rightTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by lorca 8 years ago
lorca
JamckeIm_always_rightTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Xera 8 years ago
Xera
JamckeIm_always_rightTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03