The Instigator
KingYosef
Pro (for)
Winning
33 Points
The Contender
Solarman1969
Con (against)
Losing
18 Points

The two party system has run its course and is dividing America.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/3/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,349 times Debate No: 1295
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (17)

 

KingYosef

Pro

21st Century Republican: Money-loving, Gun-loving, God fearing, corrupt, American pride, can't be trusted. WANT THINGS TO STAY THE SAME

21st Century Democrat: Nature loving, people loving, God loving/no god at all, winey, politically uneducated/political genius (either they know nothing or they know alot), Gay loving, soft. WANT THINGS TO CHANGE

John Edwards talks about two Americas, but these are the REAL two Americas. From what I have seen over the past two years, this is how Democrats look at Republicans, and Republicans look at Democrats. It is tearing this country in half. a "true" Democrat today is unbearably liberal, and a "true" Republican is disgustedly conservative. Today, if you consider yourself a conservative Democrat, or a liberal Republican, you mine as well be an independent. The truth is that independents don't become president. So that leaves us with the two parties we see today, who's beliefs are polar opposites of one another. It creates two cultures in one country, and the fact is neither extreme can successfully lead a country.

Foundation of the Democratic Party: The party the believes that more power should reside in the state, slight social liberal bend.

Foundation of the Republican Party: The party the believes that more power should reside in the Capital, slight fiscal conservative bend.

It is almost comical to think that 200 years ago, that the Democratic-Republican Party was one party alongside the Federalist party and the Whig party. It split because of the differences stated above. Those foundations served well until the 1960s, a period in which the Vietnam War and the "Flower Power" movement took the Republican Party name and the Democratic Party name respectively, and the damage is irreparable.

This is the way it should be...

The Capital should worry about national security, the economy, health care, global image, foreign affairs, etc.

The State should worry about social issues such as gay marriage, abortion, environmental friendliness, etc.

another important thing, there are much more important things to worry about then gay marriage, stem cell research, abortion, etc. History shows that people are progressive, eventually all these things will be legal. Also, just make it all legal now, it doesn't affect you unless you want it too, and getting it all out of the way allows us to focus on more important issues (read Middle East). I don't want to hear Presidential Candidates talking about these issues, they can leave that to the governors.

Solarman, I chose this because of your biases and, from what i have seen in your debates, a knowledge of exercising freedom, and of the United States Political landscape. as I said, I chose something in which i felt i could learn from you (what i feel is most important on Debate.org, learning). so i look forward to your response.
Solarman1969

Con

I have long argued for more than two parties, so in a way I am playing devils advocate here

Nonetheless the republcans are CLEARLY 1000% better than the democrats currently, and so I would just like to see some more lefist parties to break up the democrat criminal enterprise

you say

21st Century Republican: Money-loving, Gun-loving, God fearing, corrupt, American pride, can't be trusted. WANT THINGS TO STAY THE SAME

I say

Republicans (read CONSERVATIVES to RINOs) are good managers, have fiscal discipline, self-govern themselves , want to protect America, and fight socialism and moral degradation of our society, based on biblical priciples, but also based on experience in the REAL WORLD

you say

21st Century Democrat: Nature loving, people loving, God loving/no god at all, winey, politically uneducated/political genius (either they know nothing or they know alot), Gay loving, soft. WANT THINGS TO CHANGE

this is all over the map, and that makes sense

the democrat party is some patched together coalition of the needy and the disaffected, as they have been convinced of so by their demoncat slave masters

most are too dumb to realize they are constantly being lied to and manipulated

or they just dont care becuase they are biased from being taught that way or are directly benefitting from the graft and corruption in the party

this is not to say that the republicans are free from such- only the true conservatives are- the liberal republicans might as well put a D next to them

Your next point

John Edwards talks about two Americas, but these are the REAL two Americas. From what I have seen over the past two years, this is how Democrats look at Republicans, and Republicans look at Democrats. It is tearing this country in half

John Edwards is a SCUM trial lawyer who made him money lying about and bankrupting doctors and hospitals and is exactly what I am talking about with divisive democrats who simply play on lies fears and division

there are NOT two Americas- there is one great large America! ANYONE who works hard will succeed- from ANY background or circumstance

the liars in the demoncat party will try and convince you that eeeeeeeeeeeeevil corporations and meanie racist sexist homophobe republcans will KEPP YOU DOWN without their altruistic help- that is the LIE they have been talling for many years, espeically to the blacks in particular

It is DISGUSTING what they do- and I for one am SICK OF IT

Corporations and companies EMPLOY PEOPLE, PAY THEM, AND provide benefits

Republicans want to see you SUCEED on YOUR OWN, and not need government

your next point

It is tearing this country in half. a "true" Democrat today is unbearably liberal, and a "true" Republican is disgustedly conservative. Today, if you consider yourself a conservative Democrat, or a liberal Republican, you mine as well be an independent. The truth is that independents don't become president. So that leaves us with the two parties we see today, who's beliefs are polar opposites of one another. It creates two cultures in one country, and the fact is neither extreme can successfully lead a country.

This is also BS. There are a number of independents, probably 30%

I am in the marijuana party, for example- I voted for Nader, Dole and Bush twice in the last 4 elections - I am quite conservative but only becuase I HAVE A BRAIN and dont fall from the demoncat LIES

BTW, it is MIGHT as well be an independent

Liberal republican and conservative democrat are oxymorons.

In short, the liberals for the most part must be defeated at every step. They are wrong on every single issue for the most part, and exist only to accrue power for themselves- they do NOT have the interests of this country at heart

I think the LIBERTARIAN and GREEN parties should emerge and be stronger

your next point

Foundation of the Democratic Party: The party the believes that more power should reside in the state, slight social liberal bend.

Foundation of the Republican Party: The party the believes that more power should reside in the Capital, slight fiscal conservative bend.

ARE YOU KIDDING????????????????????

this is TOTALLY COMPLETELY BACKWARDS

Demoncats are socialists, and want to federalize everything

Conservatives want to shrink the government and its role, ceding power to Local, then state governments preferentially

your next point

This is the way it should be...

The Capital should worry about national security, the economy, health care, global image, foreign affairs, etc.

The State should worry about social issues such as gay marriage, abortion, environmental friendliness, etc.

This is way too simplistic

the fed govt should NOT have a role in the economy or health care (although for now we have medicare and medicaid for the old and poor and I dont see them ever going away)

The states SHOULD have a more imporatant role in deciding social issues and the roles NOT specified to be run by the feds

your next point

another important thing, there are much more important things to worry about then gay marriage, stem cell research, abortion, etc. History shows that people are progressive, eventually all these things will be legal. Also, just make it all legal now, it doesn't affect you unless you want it too, and getting it all out of the way allows us to focus on more important issues (read Middle East). I don't want to hear Presidential Candidates talking about these issues, they can leave that to the governors

First of all, I generally agree with this point

the federal government should be worried about (1) national security (2) energy policy (3) cutting spending and programs and (4) decreasing the tax burden on persons and businesses , among other things

Now "progressive" is simply a new term for liberal, since liberal has become prejoritive - noone these days wants to be called a liberal, so they say call me "progressive" -

they are just as wrong , and just and dangerous and misguided however

Now lets look at these three examples

(1) Abortion- this is murder of infants, and the "right" was invented out of whole cloth by the liberal Blackmun court in 1973, based on a "right" to privacy. It turns out the plaintiff , one Norma McCorvey, was told to lie and say she was raped by the texas ACLU- she is now ardently pro-life and wants the decision overturned

the feds and SC should have NEVER made this ruling and it should be overturned

this CLEARLY should be an issue to be decided by the states

(2) Stem Cell research

here is a perfect example of DEMOCRAT LIES. They have propagandized this issue for their abortion industry masters (I call it the baby body parts industry)

the have tried to say in short that "republican anti-abortion religious wackos oppose science"

NOTHING could be further from the truth

First and foremost, the GOVERNMENT should stay out of the private sector and research for the most part, with some exception

On stem cell research, you actaully have to understand the difference between emryonic stem cell research, and adult stem cell research, and the promise of both in curing illness.

This is a long and complicated topic, but suffice it to say that both are going on with vigor in the private sector, and the federal role here is TINY. Furthermore, embryonic stem cell research is much less promising that adult.

Finally, using dead babies for research, and creating a new market for dead babies , is EVIL. thats why republicans and conservatives oppose it.

(3) Gay Marriage

Is an OXYMORON. period.

the gay activists are trying to shove this down the churces face. They already have the rights to be partners forever and what not

So in short, republican is FAR SUPERIOR to dumbocrap

this was a
Debate Round No. 1
KingYosef

Pro

First I would like readers to note that solarman didn't "call me any names" and the one time he did completely blow off something i wrote, he was right for doing, (the orgin of the Democratic and republican party).

First I would like to clarify something:

"John Edwards talks about two Americas, but these are the REAL two Americas."

once again my inabilty to articulate myselfs has lead to confussion. What i was trying to say, was that John Edwards talks about the rich and poor America, but that exists in every country (rich and poor), I was saying that Democrats and Republicans are the two Americas.

Next on of your qoutes:

In short, the liberals for the most part must be defeated at every step. They are wrong on every single issue for the most part, and exist only to accrue power for themselves- they do NOT have the interests of this country at heart

This is too simplisic if not wrong, Politics is essentially the most difficult game in the world. Every decison you make in an effort to "win" the game will be scrutinzed by the surrounding world. conservatives play the game stunningly well but often lack an understanding of the reprcussions that can result from appeasing the politically uneducated. Liberals are not interested in winning, some legitamatelly have a deep sympathy or empathy for humankind or nature, and will work ferverously to produce equality and preservation respectivelly as that is what they truely beleive in. Others will preach the same, but lack the understanding or even not care, for their primary interest is the image bestowed upon a liberal as a caring individual. The first class of liberals, which are the minority, serve a vital purpose in undoing the moral harm cuased by the conservative in their efforts to better the country. the second group of liberals, the one i assume you despise, serve no purpose but to frustrate the conservative with their baseless porclimations. Regardless though, each kind of person has their best interests at heart, The conservative envys the reputation of being a conservative (think about it and you will understand what I mean), The legitamate liberal longs for a title of humanatarian. the baseless liberal simply wants to be heard, to be a somebody.

Next qoute:

"the fed govt should NOT have a role in the economy or health care"

I am not calling you at, rather I am interested in your reasoning behind this statement such as why you believe this.

now for the three examples you present:

(1) Abortion: between your argument and my response here, I have had a change of heart on abortion. I was talking with my father (a conservative syrian immigrant), he is a doctor and i brought up abortion with him one afternoon. I for one never understood the exponential number of abortions that take place in hospitals, once I learned the alarming rate at which fetuses are being aborted, I have had a change of heart and now agree with you on this point.

(2) Stem Cell Research: I completely agree that it should remain within the private sector. I do beleive that Adult Stem Cell research needs to be the base of stem cell research. Yet I do think, a little more embryonic stem cell research should be done as to gain a better understanding of the difference between the two. It is evil, I agree. But consider the fact that a large portion of medical technology and understanding we have today was largely influenced by the the gruesome medical and scientific expirments done on gas chamber prisoners by the Nazis. It was horrible but nonetheless crucial to the adavancments of medicine in the post Hitler world.

(3) Gay Marriage: You say oxymoron, I say trivial. before you rampage against me on this subject, allow me to explain what influences me on my stance. I was a long time homophobe, and then one of my best friends came out to me and another mutual close friend. we were the first people he ever told. The hell he went through becuase he was so ashamed and upset that he was gay changed my life forever. after two years he started coming to terms with it, in large part to me and my friend's support. shortly there after he died in a plane crash with his family, they never knew he was gay. that was two and a half years ago, and ever since that day I have been on a personal endeavor to open any and all doors to acceptance of gays as equals. You talk about evil. how evil is it to make people live in fear, shame and hiding, because the of the hetrosexual worlds reluctance and fear of welcoming the unknown. it not about Civil unions being good enough, which in a world with perfect people it would be. but until we allow marriage, they will still be a seperate society look at differently by hetros, and that is where the problem lies.

If I may, I will use you as an example of what is wrong with the two party system. Once I took the time to sife through the emotionally sparked arguments you have written in previous debates, I have found that 90% percent of the time you are right in your convictions. With the exception of Islam (Which in my opinion is not your fault, as it appears your relentless patriotism has subconciously bedrocked a blind bias) Your arguments are entirely correct and show a rather high level of phycoligical and political understanding. Yet you have still lost almost all of your debates. This is because of your disgust of liberals, that you won't even bother to explain to them, in their language, why they are wrong. It bothers me because the positive impact you could have on this sight in broadening points of views is tremendous.

regardless of whether you are aware of it or not, you yourself are the embodiment of what is wrong with the two party system. the hatred has become so strong, that though you can open doors through your wealth of knowledge and studied research, you opt to slam it in their face and instead of educating, you widen the divide. I am not saying this to ridacule you, on the contrary, you simply fall into the norm on this issue. it's the way everyone acts.

I encourage an anaylsis as the one I did on you above argueing why my stance embodies a faliure in the United States political landscape.

Best of luck to you in your argument, I have enjoyed this debate. as i always say, I am here to learn, not to win :)
Solarman1969

Con

Wow!

Incredible arguments - stunning personal accounts of your life - very honest assessments of things- very accurate assessment of me!

I dont really have anything more to add, and just so you know- although I bash liberals to no end- it is mostly in fun and jest- it is SO easy to get their goats- way back to my undergrad days at berkeley- that I guess I still am kind of a bit of a liberal sadist about it- they being so emotional

My wife is a liberal medical social worker in the City of SF- and my best friends are all liberals too- I am the lone republican and conservative so its kind of funny really

I have slowly won them over to some of my points of view- :)

I am heartened to hear of your convictions on abortion- it is truly a crime against humanity- and the hard core supporters really are supporting murder and evil, whether they know it or not

the stem cell thing you pretty much have nailed- there is alot of hype surrounding it- but like other debates I have tried to have here- unless you are TRAINED in science, you are NOT capable of debating those types of subjects and unfortunately, you will be subject to propagandizement

On the gay thing- I appreciate your heart felt story about your friend- quite a tragedy for him to die so young!

The debate on "gay marriage" is NOT about the right to be homosexual, and be it out in the open, and not be discriminated against.

Gay people , like my aunt who has been with the same woman for like 20 years, have all the rights in the world! They and MATURE gay folks DONT CARE about this political football

the people that are out in the streets clamoring for gay marriage are simply trying to get RELIGIOUS people, not the STATE to accept their lifestyle.

Most religious folks dont accept the gay lifestyle as being what God intended, and can point to scriptures that frown upon it.

Now, the Muslims will straight up MURDER gays, like in Iran, and are QUITE homophobic, becuase given the fact that men and women are forbidden to be together, there is rampant homosexual conduct in strict Islamic societies that noone will talk about- that is a different story altogether

that kind of thing doesnt happen here- gays are perfectly free, and successful, and what not- families can be quite unaccepting, but thats life.

the issue I have with male homosexuals in particular is that I beleive it tends to be a risky and promiscuous lifestyle, that often leads to depression and drug problems. Not really true for lesbians.

In short, we should all be tolerant of eachother and get along.

I simply will not tolerate EVIL. What is EVIL? molesting children, for example

The main issue I have with the SF libs here is that in their ULTRA tolerant viewpoint (except for conservatives) they DO tolerate EVIL, like NAMBLA, which advocates sexual relations between grown men and boys.

And you should see the homeless and drug problems in the great city of SF- they are horrendous! they just crap in the streets and set up camps and deal drugs and the cops hands are tied.

So in terms of politics, I think that we would benefit from more parties, like the libertarians and the greens, for example, so everybody doesnt have to cram their wide spectrum of beliefs into one size fits all.

cheers and thanks for the thoughtful debate

sincerely

SOLARMAN
Debate Round No. 2
KingYosef

Pro

Firstly it has been a good debate, even though we essentially agreed on the topic. This is probably the first serious debate on this site that ended early haha.

It makes sense now, I have been to San Francisco, and had I stayed a month longer I probably would be a die hard conservative too. The things I saw their and the liberalism that empowers it is a horrible thing, at the least, I am happy that it is one of the few places in America where it got that bad, though otherwise it still is a great city.

random story but I find it interesting, I think you will appreciate it too. One of my friends is extremely rich and well connected. he works in restoring old cars and asked if I could help him set up the garage for a TV show at the house for a man he worked for. I end up learning that the mans name is Bill Mittendorf, A former ambassador to the netherlands under president ford, and he held countless other positions under different presidents. At the time I was planning on studying political science somewhere in the D.C. area, in hopes of one day entering the political field. So aftering finishing the job, I asked my friend if I could meet him and talk with him abit, he said sure and the conversation that changed my life took place. He is a die hard conservative, yet he told me that when he was at Holy Cross 60 years ago, he was so left wing that he was a step away from joinning the communist party. He said as life goes on, he got stabbed in the back and lied to so many times that he eventually became conservative. He told me that the problem with liberals is that they get together and yell and talk about peace and equality and what not and never get anything done, they never do anything to change it. He told me that majoring in political science is a big mistake. it is a major made for the young and idealistic people that nevers makes for a good career. What he said next opened my nieve 16 year old eyes. He said, joe, this is the way it is, i am telling you this because you came to me for advice and this is your life we are talking about here, I go to speak at harvard or princeton and i tell them all that other bullshit because thats what they want to hear, but thats not the way the world works, its a cold place, and sometimes you got to be just as cold.

that is what sticks out from a conversation that I have come feel was a chance at redemption for an old man who dominated the political game but was torched during the process. I think he thought he could save me from the same fate he suffered by telling me not to be so idealistic, by telling me the truth.

two weeks later, I had 3 missed phone calls from my friend. It turns out i was invited to go out and eat lunch with my friend, mr. Mittendorf, and John McCain......I missed it

I thought i would put some content in here, since the debate is essentially over.
Solarman1969

Con

SUMMARY

I would like to see

(1) MORE PARTIES

(2) CONSERVATISM RULE

(3) TERM LIMITS

(4) MORE SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS IN CONGRESS

have a nice day

SOLARMAN
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Adolph_Hitler_Rules 9 years ago
Adolph_Hitler_Rules
Adolph Hitler is my father's distant cousin, so I am obligated to show some loyalty.
Posted by sugarplum034 9 years ago
sugarplum034
"Nonetheless the republcans are CLEARLY 1000% better than the democrats currently, and so I would just like to see some more lefist parties to break up the democrat criminal enterprise"

I would just like to bring out that this comment alone proves that KingYosef is trying to make because of the attitude brought about by the major two party attitude. The fact that you even think that your party is absolutely better shows the factional nature of America today and how it is tearing America into two parts. The Two Party system defies the idea of unity by pulling our beliefs to one side or the other. It is impossible to come together to resolve issues as a country if we are too preoccupied arguing with eachother.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
why the title?

you dont really like Adolf do you?
Posted by Adolph_Hitler_Rules 9 years ago
Adolph_Hitler_Rules
Solarman, I'm going to vote for you since these stupid kids need to be put in their place.
Posted by Xelos 9 years ago
Xelos
"The State should worry about social issues such as gay marriage, abortion, environmental friendliness, etc."

So if you pollute a river and it flows into my state i have no recourse because its your states issue? that sucks :D
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Altough I like the idea of more parties

I want CONSERVATISM to rule!

SOLARMAN
Posted by kenito001 9 years ago
kenito001
John Edwards defended middle class America. Health insurance companies bankrupted the doctors. Sean Hannity isn't a credible source...

"dumbocrap"
Dumbo... haha. For that one party... with the elephant...

"the feds and SC should have NEVER made this ruling and it should be overturned"
Nominate solarman for Chief Justice, with his extensive credibility and infinite knowledge!
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Ok good one

No time right now, just wanted to accept

thanks

Solarman
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