The Instigator
retrogamer176
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points
The Contender
mwesigwa1
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

The united states of america was founded under christian values.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+4
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
retrogamer176
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/20/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,003 times Debate No: 73820
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (12)
Votes (2)

 

retrogamer176

Con

This will just be acceptance. Round 2 will be arguments, no rebuttles, Round's 3-5 will be rebuttles, and counter-rebuttles as well as new arguments.
mwesigwa1

Pro

I accept your argument, and will proceed to prove to you that the United States of America was indeed founded on Christian principles, as intended by the Founding Fathers.
Debate Round No. 1
retrogamer176

Con

My first piece of evidence is this quote from article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli 1797: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion...". This quote explicitly states my point and was signed by the founding fathers! Here is the rest of the treaty for context: http://avalon.law.yale.edu...

I apologies for not showing much evidence in the second round. I got busy with a standardized state test.
mwesigwa1

Pro

I'm also busy, as I'm preparing for AP exams.But I've got a bevy of quotes of my own.

John Adams: "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence."

"The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity."
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
"[The Fourth of July] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty."
"As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him."
"It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."

George Washington: "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports".Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
"True religion affords to government its surest support."

United States Congress 1782: "The United States in Congress assembled " recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States " a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools."
"Congress passed this resolution: "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools."

Patrick Henry has a good one: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

John Jay: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty " as well as privilege and interest " of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

Noah Webster: "Education is useless without the Bible. The Bible was America"s basic text book in all fields. God"s Word, contained in the Bible, has furnished all necessary rules to direct our conduct."

"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed " No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."

Here are my sources:

http://www.shadesofgrace.org...
http://christianity.about.com...
Debate Round No. 2
retrogamer176

Con

I'm gonna need more time to refute your quotes, so I'm going strait to new arguments.

So next is the obvious "why isn't it in the constitution"? Since it's consistently uses, you probably know all forms of the argument.

Anyways moving on from that...

Key founders such as James Madison and Thomas Jefferson opposed the mixing of church and state. Madison and other founders frequently wrote about the dangers of government adopting religion. They were aware of the history and people who were persecuted for not being that nations religion. The myth that America is a "Christian nation" is not only untrue, but promotes the pernicious idea that non-Christians are second-class citizens.

Washington is the author of one of the great classics of religious liberty"the letter to Touro Synagogue (1790). In this letter, Washington assures America"s Jews that they would enjoy complete religious liberty"not mere toleration"in the new nation. He outlines a vision not of a Christian nation but of a multi-faith society where all are free to practice as they will. You can read it here http://www.tourosynagogue.org...

In February of 1756, Adams wrote in his diary about a discussion he had had with a man named Major Greene. Greene was a devout Christian who sought to persuade Adams to adopt conservative Christian views. The two argued over the divinity of Jesus. When questioned on the matter, Greene fell back on an old standby: some matters of theology are too complex and mysterious for human understanding.

Adams was not impressed. In his diary he writes, "Thus mystery is made a convenient cover for absurdity." So there is the first instance of a founding father being openly HOSTILE on religion.

My source: http://www.alternet.org...
mwesigwa1

Pro

Pro claims that America being a Christian nation would make non-Christians second-class citizens. That's not true at all. Our country is also founded on the ideas of John Locke. Does that mean that people opposed to John Locke automatically become second-class citizens? Of course not. Thomas Jefferson actually created the phrase "separation of church and state" in a letter he wrote to the Danbury Baptist Church to assure them that the STATE would not interfere in the matters of the church, not the other way around. The "separation" was meant to protect the church from the state, not the state from the church. It has been only during the 20th century that people have begun to twist Jefferson's words around, and even go as far as to claim that they are even in the Constitution itself.

Your major fallacy is that you assume that being a Christian nation means that it is in the best interests of the citizens to be or they should be Christian. That was the problem that the founding fathers saw in Great Britain. When they founded the United States, they of course weren't going to govern it with the Bible as the Constitution. The country would be based on Christian principles, but people of other faiths would be tolerated. In England, non-Anglican Christians were persecuted, something that Jesus himself would not approve of. George Washington's letter to the Jews was very similar to Thomas Jefferson's letter to Danbury. One of the main differences is that Washington never mentioned God or Christianity at all in his letter. Again, a country can be based on Christian principles but have religious tolerance. Look at Norway . Most of the Norwegians are in fact atheists, but the country is still based on its traditional Christian values.

Historians are also in consensus that John Adams was in fact a very devout Christian . The absurdity Adams was talking about was the absurdity of Major Greene's argument. It is also interesting that you neglected to delve a little deeper into Adams' diary:

2 TUESDAY. MARCH 1756 (About two weeks after the discussion with Major Greene)
A snow fall last night, half leg deep. Began this afternoon, my 3rd. quarter. The great and almighty Author of nature, who at first established those rules which regulate the World, can as easily Suspend those Laws whenever his providence sees sufficient reason for such suspension. This can be no objection, then, to the miracles of J [Jesus] C [Christ]. Altho' some very thoughtfull, and contemplative men among the heathen, attained a strong persuasion of the great Principles of Religion, yet the far greater number having little time for speculation, gradually sunk in to the grossest Opinions and the grossest Practices. These therefore could not be made to embrace the true religion, till their attention was roused by some astonishing and miraculous appearances. The reasonings of Phylosophers having nothing surprizing in them, could not overcome the force of Prejudice, Custom, Passion, and Bigotry. But when wise and virtuous men, commisioned from heaven, by miracles awakened mens attention to their Reasonings the force of Truth made its way, with ease to their minds."

You said, and I quote, " So there is the first instance of a founding father being openly HOSTILE on religion." I have just shown you, from Adams' own writings, that he believing in the divinity and the miracles of Jesus Christ.

Q.E.D.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.masshist.org...;
Debate Round No. 3
retrogamer176

Con

Uhh dude, First of all, your pro.

Secondly, the bible says, and I quote "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." Basically, shun the non-Christians. (2 Cor.6:14-17)

That makes non-Christians second class, if you want a true Christian nation. But I digress.

John Locke doesn't say "anyone who doesn't believe in the enlightenment should be shunned"!

Also, the idea of religious liberty has a name: secularism.

Sorry about this being short as well, the darn math portion of our standardized test was delayed til now, so I had to get busy with that.
mwesigwa1

Pro

mwesigwa1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
retrogamer176

Con

I hope you forfeited the last round because you were busy. I'm a bit busy, so I'll just close my arguments.

Anyways the arguments I have presented for Pro were:
Article 11 of the treaty of tripoli
The constitution 1st amendment
The letter to touro synagogue
Adam's diary in feb. of 1756
2 Cor. 6:14-17

This was a fun debate that, unfortunately, due to the standardized testing and getting ready for finals, I couldn't go into much detail into. I hope I convinced someone out there my position. Retro OUT
mwesigwa1

Pro

mwesigwa1 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by retrogamer176 1 year ago
retrogamer176
One for each exam you have. Good luck on the exam.
Posted by retrogamer176 1 year ago
retrogamer176
Lol, DDO glitch: you posted six times.
Posted by mwesigwa1 1 year ago
mwesigwa1
@retrogramer Nope. I was simply busy studying for six AP exams, so I didn't have time to respond for the last two rounds. It was fun debating you, though.
Posted by mwesigwa1 1 year ago
mwesigwa1
@retrogramer Nope. I was simply busy studying for six AP exams, so I didn't have time to respond for the last two rounds. It was fun debating you, though.
Posted by mwesigwa1 1 year ago
mwesigwa1
@retrogramer Nope. I was simply busy studying for six AP exams, so I didn't have time to respond for the last two rounds. It was fun debating you, though.
Posted by mwesigwa1 1 year ago
mwesigwa1
@retrogramer Nope. I was simply busy studying for six AP exams, so I didn't have time to respond for the last two rounds. It was fun debating you, though.
Posted by mwesigwa1 1 year ago
mwesigwa1
@retrogramer Nope. I was simply busy studying for six AP exams, so I didn't have time to respond for the last two rounds. It was fun debating you, though.
Posted by mwesigwa1 1 year ago
mwesigwa1
@retrogramer Nope. I was simply busy studying for six AP exams, so I didn't have time to respond for the last two rounds. It was fun debating you, though.
Posted by retrogamer176 1 year ago
retrogamer176
Did I convince you mwesigwa?
Posted by wampe 1 year ago
wampe
It doesn't matter what the "founding fathers" believed. What matters is did they, when creating the United States of America, use Christian "values" as their guide or foundation. If the 10 commandments can be used an example of Christian "values", I would say no, as they crated a secular government.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by tajshar2k 1 year ago
tajshar2k
retrogamer176mwesigwa1Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Good debate, till last 2 rounds.Pro FF
Vote Placed by triangle.128k 1 year ago
triangle.128k
retrogamer176mwesigwa1Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit