The Instigator
Dwint
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Al-Kitab
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

The usual arguments #4: Free will

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Dwint
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/18/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,316 times Debate No: 52347
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (17)
Votes (1)

 

Dwint

Con

This debate is impossible to accept. Leave a comment if you would like to debate
.I will NOT argue against the existence of free will. I will argue that free will doesn't prove the existence of a god.
Structure:
Round 1: acceptance
Round 2: arguments(no rebuttals)
Round 3: rebuttals(no arguments)
Round 4: additional arguments/rebuttals and conclusion
Al-Kitab

Pro



Your answer
Debate Round No. 1
Dwint

Con

1) No intervention can't prove God exists

Divine intervention can prove God's existence, obviously. Free will is the lack of intervention, the idea that you are free to do anything you want, that your actions are not predetermined. If intervention proves God's existence and free will means the lack of intervention, then free will can't prove God's existence.

2) Free will doesn't need a source

God is usually considered the source of free will. He gave us free will, he is the one who allowed us to do what we want. However, free will doesn't demand a source. Unlike miracles (like a resurrection for example), free will is natural. An organism can't come back to life without divine intervention, but free will can exist without divine intervention, naturally. Microbes have free will, viruses, prokaryotes all have free will. As long as free will is natural, it can't prove God's existence. God's existence can only be proven by supernatural phenomenons that can only take place if there is divine intervention.

3) No control demands no controller

Free will means our lives aren't controlled by a higher power. Then, how can free will prove that the higher power exists? If our lives were controlled and our actions predetermined, there would be a need for a controller, a higher being that is capable of controlling your actions and thoughts. As long as we have free will, meaning that our lives are only controlled by ourselves, then free will can't prove the existence of a higher being capable of controlling us.
Let's say you see a car that isn't moving. Does the fact that the car isn't moving prove that there is a driver inside the car?
Al-Kitab

Pro

1) No intervention can't prove God exists

Divine intervention can prove God's existence, obviously. Free will is the lack of intervention, the idea that you are free to do anything you want, that your actions are not predetermined. If intervention proves God's existence and free will means the lack of intervention, then free will can't prove God's existence.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

I agree with your understanding of free will.

You misunderstood how Allah operates.

Allah sets the multiple choice before the creation is created.

When the creation reaches the question, his free will choices are recorded.

He is All-Just for GIVING YOU THE OPTION

He is All-Merciful for the wrong option
( if "you" go against your better judgment and accept the wrong)

The next question already awaits.

The path is already set. As you answer the next question ALREADY awaits.

He doesn't answer it for you but chooses your questions.

Allah does not "intervene", he has set it to already take place.

Quran says Allah merely has to say "Be!" and it is.

A Miracle is Allah has set in the BE stage something that happens at IT IS.

It might go against your logic but whatever happened is logical.

For example,

Lets say a guy survived a car crash without a scratch.

We consider it a miracle.

We ask the guy about it and he responds by saying it was like time slowed down, I saw the telegraph pole go straight pass my face.

It is a miracle he survived yes and the guy would also agree.
There is however a logical explanation.
The true miracle isn't that Allah had to "intervene" (which goes against all logic of free will)
but the Allah planned every element in that car, including the pole to go by without scratching the guy.

Again to reiterate in the Al-kitab we are told Allah merely has to say "Be" and it is.

So Allah isn't changing the IT IS but merely placing the order in BE .....which then becomes.

The Al-kitab contains the "BE" we we live in the "it is".

Be and it is doesn't mean its something supernatural. It means it was set in place before it was.

The Al-kitab was written before time and reaches the ends of space. We are the IT IS living within the pages, recycling.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________
2) Free will doesnt need a source
Free will is natural. An organism can't come back to life without divine intervention, but free will can exist without divine intervention, naturally. Microbes have free will, viruses, prokaryotes all have free will. As long as free will is natural, it can't prove God's existence.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

The problem is not free will itself

but how did free will come to be.

Allah only sets the time of birth and death.

In between he says everything is recorded and will be presented to you, (for you to judge yourself on your actions)

He never changes free will, merely sets the questions that you will choose to either + or -

Microbes, virus, prokaryotes and everything else weren't given the option to live. This option is where you require Allah.

Allah creates us just and with good thoughts, with the option to sin.

For example if you see a child being raped, you don't need to be of faith to know its wrong.

Allowing the goodness to flow from you and prevention (or even understand that it is wrong) is to fight in the way of one of Allah's glorious names Al-Adl (Justice).

To allow it to proceed with ignorance is from ones self and is the sin.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

God's existence can only be proven by supernatural phenomenons that can only take place if there is divine intervention.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Nothing is Supernatural. Everything in the Quran agrees to science. After the name of Allah the word "ilm" meaning knowledge/science is the most repeated word in the Quran.

Let me show you 6 examples of "miracles" in 4 consecutive ayats. (In the Al-kitab the word "ayat" means both "miracle/signs" and the word in the book, The Quran says the miracle is its truth of the book, not supernatural but the details about the natural.) This ayat is addressed to you "unbelievers" from Allah.

Quran 21.30-33

*Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We clove them asunder (fataqna)?
**And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
***And We have made great mountains like pegs in the earth lest it might be convulsed with them,
****and We have made in it wide ways that they may follow a right direction.
*****And We have made the heaven a guarded canopy and (yet) they turn aside from its signs.
******And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.

*. The Big bang is explained

RATQAN has two distinct meanings. One meaning is 'the coming together of something and the consequent infusion into a single entity' and the second meaning is 'from total darkness'. Both these meanings are significantly applicable.

FATAQNA means to be ripped apart, explode, disunite or break.

**. Evolution is explained - All living things come from water.
***. Isostasy of mountains are explained
****. Tectonic plates are explained
*****. Atmosphere or Van Allen's belt is explained
******. Orbits of celestial entities are explained.

Also Watch the video again. I have already explained how Allah and free will can co-exist. Proved it through science as well.

3) I don't even need to read your third question because I answered it clearly in my previous response.

Debate Round No. 2
Dwint

Con

1) This is very interesting, but it explains why free will exists, rather than how free will proves god's existence. The whole argument is based on the assumption that god exists, when it should show why free will proves god exists. The argument explains why free will exists, but this doesn't need to be proven. Free will can exist even without god, this is why free will cannot prove god exists. God can explain and prove free will, but free will can't prove god. You offered one of the many explanations of free will. Sure, if your explanation is right, Allah exists, but you cannot prove free will is a line of questions. Maybe it's different and the Christian god exists, maybe there is no god, free will would still exist, but have a different explanation.

2) Free will could be a product of god's work, but it doesn't have to be. If there is no god, free will still exists. There could be more reasons why free will exists, either god exists and decided to give us free will or there is simply no god, nobody to control us, therefore we have free will. As long as none of these explanations can be denied, free will cannot prove god's existence, nor his inexistence.
The fact that our lives aren't controlled can't prove the existence of somebody capable of controlling us or that somebody capable of controlling us doesn't exist. Free will simply can't prove anything.

" Allah and free will can co-exist"
Of course they can co-exist. Free will can't disprove god's existence, but can't prove it either. You don't have to show god and free will can co-exist, you have to show that free will proves god exists, show that free will can only have one source that source is god.
Al-Kitab

Pro

You come from the unknown without the option to live,
Going back to the unknown is the reason to stay alive.

My argument is Free will is limited.

You see if a person wanted to kill themselves
then they know they end their "free" and are left with just a will.

Say they slash there wrist,

We are told in the Quran

[50.16]
And certainly We created man,
and We know what his mind suggests to him,
and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.

That means you have no option in your death
EVEN IF YOU SLASHED YOUR WRIST OR WERE GIVEN A MEDICINE THAT KILLED YOU AT A PRECISE TIME

That last breathe, that last gasp for air, that last pulse that keeps you alive, that is his choice.

Up until that moment it is up to you what you choose.

You are free to choose what you want.

But in truth, deep in your soul, hidden, you know Allah exists.

Its easy to show you

Lets take another death scenario.

Say your in the middle of an ocean,
no boat, just you floating and trying to stay alive, day after day.
The time comes when your about to die.
Your exhausted, you look up in the air as your swallowing salt water....
You think or cry out for help at that last moment.

To who?

Welcome to the free will choice of Allah



The Quran gives many examples but a similiar understanding can be derived from:

[10.22-23] He it is Who makes you travel by land and sea; until when you are in the ships, and they sail on with them in a pleasant breeze, and they rejoice, a violent wind overtakes them and the billows surge in on them from all sides, and they become certain that they are encompassed about, they pray to Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience: If Thou dost deliver us from this, we will most certainly be of the grateful ones. But when He delivers them, lo! they are unjustly rebellious in the earth. O men! your rebellion is against your own souls-- provision (only) of this world's life-- then to Us shall be your return, so We will inform you of what you did.


Now to the Limited:

Free will is limited by governing mathematical laws.

For example in the Quran

[2.258] Have you not considered him who disputed with Ibrahim about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom? When Ibrahim said: My Lord is He who gives life and causes to die,
he said: I give life and cause death.
Ibrahim said: So surely Allah causes the sun to rise from the east, then make it rise from the
west;
thus he who disbelieved was confounded; and Allah does not guide aright the unjust people.



You can say you have free will all you want but you are governed by laws.

If you don't get air you stop breathing. LAW,
If you don't have water you die, LAW.

Having free will doesn't prove God,
but how free you are is predetermined by him, the All-Knowing, the All-Aware

Like I said before
Free will is something between birth and death.
Quran says he does not interfere with your choices. He has already written it, your living it.
So the "natural laws" that are predetermined upon you

Quran says amongst this freedom he has given you, there are things that are out of your control, even though its you, its not free, just willed.

16.48 "Have they not considered everything Allah has created – its shadows turn to the right and left, prostrating to Allah in utter humility?"
13:15 (And to Allah (alone) all who are in the heavens and the earth fall in prostration, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and in the afternoons.)

Your shadow willingly or unwillingly prostrates to Allah.

If you truly were free, stop a shadow from doing its duty.

Mathematical governing laws still are in practice with whatever free will choice your going to make.
For example you can just freely decide to fly and up, up and away.

Even if our technology increases and we begin to create humans from dirt like Allah,
"we still need dirt" to begin creating.
It is his option if you are provided that dirt.

Or say you want to go out fishing and your car doesn't work.
You come in and your heater doesn't work
then your sugar level drops instantly
you go open the tap but it doesn't work
you resort to getting water from the fridge.
Everything ok

Catch 22

You see now yes I agree free will is in our power
And everything in this scenario does contain free'ness,
but it is nothing more than answering questions thrown at you,
rather than you freely deciding your questions.


To prove Allah.

These natural laws around you and the one that determines your life and death is Allah.
Everything else is free.
Do as you please, he just say be ready to be accountable.

You say if there was no God and so on......

simple arithmetic
0 x everything = 0
1 x everything = everything

Nothing can never produce something (even in Quantum physics a law is required)

If there was no God there would be nothing. We did not come from nothing, we came from beyond everything.

To show that free will proves Allah exist is by understanding

Every atom and every requirement for you (or anything) to exist right now, existed before you became and must exist after you become one with the earth......until time runs out. (Judgement Day)

Every particle required to make you existed since the Big Bang and was measured perfectly to design you at this very moment,
to have this freedom to talk to have this discussion and thoughts.
Understanding that in the potential infinite amount of possibilities of creation that you could have been,
or even not been at all been, was his choice.

If you don't think so,
Quran says
22.73 O mankind, an example is being cited so listen to it: those you call upon besides God will not create a fly even if they all gathered to do so. And if the fly takes anything from them, they will not be able to return it from him. Weak is both the seeker and the sought!

We can not create a fly or if a fly came and took something away from us we cant get it back, so how free are we really then my friend?

You must agree Free is limited and if you agree to limits, then you agree to Allah.

Debate Round No. 3
Dwint

Con

"That last breathe, that last gasp for air, that last pulse that keeps you alive, that is his choice."

This means Allah decides when we die. From this, I can prove that there is actually no free will and our choices are Allah's choices.

So, let's start with the moment you die. That moment is Allah's choice.
"The next question already awaits.

The path is already set. As you answer the next question ALREADY awaits."
You described free will as a series of questions. Since every single action involves free will and our life is made out of actions, we can conclude that life itself is a series of questions. Our whole lives, we answer question after question. Also, what happens to us is determined by our answers. Every single answer influences our future actions, in influences that will happen to us.
Now, let's go back to the moment you die.
If every answer influences what will happen to you and death is obviously something that will happen to you, then we can safely say that death is the result of your answer to a question.
If order for free will to exist, every single question must have more than one option, each option influencing your future in a different way.
"He is All-Merciful for the wrong option
( if "you" go against your better judgment and accept the wrong)"
So there is a right option and a wrong option and Allah allows you to chose whatever you want. Whatever you chose, it will influence your life.

Again, going back to your death,

-before your death you answered one last question
-that last question(like any other question) had 2 options, a right one and a wrong one
-the right option influenced our life in a certain way
-the wrong options influenced your life in a certain way

This means that choosing one option means you will die and choosing the other means you will live and answer another question.
However, Allah wants you to die right now. It is his choice when you will die. This means that he chooses your answer to the last question. The only way he could make sure you will die at that exact time(when he chooses) and not a second later is to answer the question for you.
Sure, this doesn't mean there is no free will, but because life is a series of questions, Allah answering the last question triggers a chain reaction.

Let's say you died in a car crash and this was Allah choice.

-in order to die in a car crash, there must have been an accident
-the accident HAD to happen(otherwise, Allah couldn't kill you in a car crash)
-the accident(just like anything else) happened because of your answer to question1
-question1(just like any other question) had 2 possible answers(answer1 and answer2)
-answer1 meant the accident will take place
-answer2 meant the accident will not take place
-since it was Allah's choice to kill you in a car crash, it was also his choice to create the accident
-this mean Allah also answered question1 for you
Furthermore:
-the accident took place on a certain street
-you were driving on that street because of your answer to question2
-question2 had 2 possible answers(answer3 and answer4)
-answer3 meant you will drive on that street
-answer4 meant you will not drive on that street
-since it was Allah choice to kill you in a car crash on that street, it was also his choice to drive on that street
-this means Allah also answered question2 for you

This goes on and on to the moment you were born. If Allah decides when you die, he decides your whole life. In order for something precise to happen(your death), the whole "road" leading to your death must be "fine-tuned". Since the "road" is your life, Allah is really the one who controls your life, not you.
Therefore, free will doesn't exist if Allah exists, so obviously the existence of free will can only prove Allah doesn't exist.

Also, I want to mention that the series of questions, Allah's choice to kill you and everything else you argued are nothing more than doctrines. You assumed Allah exists in a debate where his existence had to be proven(using free will, not a mathematical formula).

"To prove Allah...."
As long as you are not using free will to prove Allah, I am not interested. This debate is not about wather god exists or doesn't, it's about how free will can or cannot prove his existence. Since you used arithmetic to prove Allah, I think it is clear you cannot prove his existence with free will, which is the point I am defending.

"You must agree Free is limited and if you agree to limits, then you agree to Allah."
Free will is only limited by your religious doctrines. As a Muslim, you believe free will is limited and Allah is the one who gives you the questions because this is your doctrine. A Christian would argue that free will is limitless because that is his doctrine.
As long as you cannot prove that free will is what your doctrine says it is, it's just an opinion. This is how you and other Muslims believe free will works, but there is no evidence to support this, except your scriptures that are contradicted by Christian or Hindu scriptures.
The reality is you mustn't agree to limits, because limits aren't provable.

"You can say you have free will all you want but you are governed by laws.

If you don't get air you stop breathing. LAW,
If you don't have water you die, LAW. "

I think you misunderstand free will. Free will means our actions aren't controlled by a deity, that's all. It doesn't mean we can defy the laws of nature. The fact that you die without water doesn't prove free will is limited. You treat free will as a set of magical powers. Having free will doesn't mean being able to fly or survive without water, it means being able to take decisions on your own.
What you are saying is that the fact that our life is not controlled by a deity means we should have magical powers.

Conclusion:
1) I showed, based on my opponent's argument, that free will and Allah can't both exist, therefore the existence of free will can never prove the existence of Allah
2) My opponent explained free will based on his religion's doctrines instead of explaining how free will couldn't exist without god
3) My opponent attempted to prove god's existence using arithmetic instead of free will
4) My opponent concluded that the limitations of free will prove Allah, but didn't provide reasonable limitations.
Al-Kitab

Pro

__________________
"This means that choosing one option means you will die and choosing the other means you will live and answer another question."
__________________

Yes

I do not disagree.

If a man was to jump off a building, his death is his own actions.

Where I do disagree with you is

"However, Allah wants you to die right now.....and the rest of the paragraph

The Quran says

3:168 Those who remained and said to their brothers: "If they obeyed us they would not have been killed." Say: "Then avert death away from yourselves if you are truthful!"

If Allah wanted you to die right now, you would not finish reading this sentence.

We have established life as a set of questions. He has set a date of birth and death.

If you decided to take a choice of Life in a life and death situation, that answer was already taken into account.

Your death was not ready then.

Allah does not answer that LAST QUESTION for you. Even that last question is your decision. It is no one else's influence but yourself on how you answer that question.

Nothing influences you but yourself.

IF you chose a path with the outcome of death, for example you jump in front of a train.... that moment that the angel of death approaches is the moment written for you, THEN you will know the truth and you will be brought in front of Allah.

Lets take you car crash scenario.

- In order to die there had to be reason, correct.

- The accident did not had to happen. If Allah wanted your death, it is not an accident.

But lets define Accident

An accident, mishap, or, more archaically, misadventure, is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance, often with lack of intention or necessity

Notice something? There is ALWAYS fault ....it is just not by choice....hence an accident.

This "Accident" could have been avoided if all the required criteria were met to be safe that day.
For example the fork in the road wasn't dropped prior, or the car breaks were checked, or the person went for a walk that day instead.

BUT DEATH CAN NOT BE AVERTED.

That person, if not dead in the accident would have been asked another question that has nothing to do with an accident but still death awaits.

With one it is an unfortunate event, the other could be for any other reason (e.g their heart just decided it worked for too long).

Now EVEN IN THIS ADDITIONAL DEATH SCENARIO where this person is out of their control and their heart stops, even that wasn't an accident and could have been avoided IF earlier he had done something to improve their health.

Even that heart stopping is still our choice.

If that heart does stop he can still be saved with the choice of others assisting him to recovery.

When death finally does come to this person. That is what is written and that death nothing can avert.





__________________

Also, I want to mention that the series of questions, Allah's choice to kill you and everything else you argued are nothing more than doctrines. You assumed Allah exists in a debate where his existence had to be proven(using free will, not a mathematical formula).

__________________

Question

1 + 1 = 2

True or false?

Mathematics is the universal governing law. It is the same here there and everywhere.

It is the ONLY TRUTH you know.

If you think otherwise give me one truth without it.

Even everything you say must meet mathematical criteria in order for communication or else it doesn't make sense.

I PROVED using the language of truth that Allah not only exists, but created the free will that you only "believe" it exists.

IF you didn't "believe" you would have the evidence to support your argument.

Show me proof of your "free will" concept next time in a clear concise manner and base your assumptions on evidence (not the other way around) .







__________________

Free will is only limited by your religious doctrines. As a Muslim, you believe free will is limited and Allah is the one who gives you the questions because this is your doctrine. A Christian would argue that free will is limitless because that is his doctrine.

__________________

I never said I was a muslim.

Let him decide on that day if I was successful in my endeavour to die a Muslim.

MY religion is mathematics.

If the Quran had said clouds are cotton candy and raindrops are lollypops, I would not accept the deity in its pages.

Due to Quran agreeing to my logic, I accepted it.

BUT YOU ARE MISTAKEN.

You said christians say they are "limitless"

Quran says

2:94

Say: "If the abode of the Hereafter has been set exclusively for you with God, to the exception of all other people, then you should wish for death if you are truthful!"

Christians also agree to their limits its just their in denial.

If they thought they were limitless or heavenly why would you even sit a test of free will, when you can have heaven (no questions)? Why wouldn't you just kill yourself?
Everyone understand limits.

Adam in the Quran was tempted in his heavenly/blissful state (on earth) with 3 things
(Adam was born 1 + ( + ? ) = infinity, where his evil inclinations were present but only hidden from him.)

1. A kingdom that never ends
2. Immortality
3. Be like the angels

Adam - The first human understood he was limited to life and death
EVERYONE knows this. Protecting the life you have is the main goal of all living creatures. This is undeniable acceptance of limits

Those other doctrines you mentioned contradict themselves, what right does it have to be comparable to a book with no contradictions?

In regard to your throwing remarks about others (Other doctrines in comparison to Quran) to justify your errors is to admit fear and defeat.
Since the start we have been speaking from a my views to you and vice versa. You and I, base your answers on my responses not what they responded about Islam.

If you would like me to explain my confidence,
bring any of the other doctrine of your choice and I will again show you nothing compares to Allah and his word.
Doesn't matter which subject. Any school of thought, every branch of academia.



Conclusion response:
__________________

1) I showed, based on my opponent's argument, that free will and Allah can't both exist, therefore the existence of free will can never prove the existence of Allah

__________________

I showed you to have an "option" of right/wrong (free will) is where you need the existence of Allah.

You don't choose you birth and precisely the time you need Allah.

The option of you existing out of the infinite possibilities of life he could have made with you, THAT option is from Allah.


__________________

2) My opponent explained free will based on his religion's doctrines instead of explaining how free will couldn't exist without god

__________________

I explained religious doctrines because the religious dogma explains free will from the perspective of Allah. Who can better explain his word then him?

As I showed my opponent, free will is answering a set of questions... nothing more.


__________________

3) My opponent attempted to prove god's existence using arithmetic instead of free will

__________________
I proved within my simple arithmetic equation the existence of free will.

Before you can debate a topic you "believe" you need the "evidence". You have not show evidence of the existence of free will, I however did. (Also showed how your choices for the questions Allah asked will ultimately choose your destiny)

I showed you an equation that proves everything (including your psyche) is all from the creator.

__________________

4) My opponent concluded that the limitations of free will prove Allah, but didn't provide reasonable limitations.

__________________

I asked you to fly, once my opponent can do that by flapping his hands I will believe he is free willed.

Final Conclusion:

We come from the unknown without an option to live, we don't drink water we die, logic.
What options do we really have but to try and stay alive before we return to the unknown?

Blessed be the All-Wise, All-Knowledgable

76.9 We feed you for the sake of Allah alone, we desire from you no reward or thanks.

Debate Round No. 4
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by razia 2 years ago
razia
Allah or God's foreknowledge of free will does not mean that God does not exist...we are dependant on Allah/God and not the other way round.
Posted by Xanxus 2 years ago
Xanxus
I think everyone knows that Free-will doesn't validate the existence of God LOL.
Posted by Kreakin 2 years ago
Kreakin
Cause does not = God...
Posted by Pitbull15 2 years ago
Pitbull15
How can anyone think that free will proves God's existence?
Posted by Dwint 2 years ago
Dwint
Frank Turek:
https://www.youtube.com... - min 26
David Wolpe :
https://www.youtube.com... - min 16
Posted by philochristos 2 years ago
philochristos
I've never seen anybody argue from free will to God, at least not directly. J.P. Moreland uses free will in one of his arguments for the soul, and he uses the soul as a premise in one of his arguments for God, so I guess you could say he uses free will as an indirect basis for believing in God.
Posted by samwight 2 years ago
samwight
I would love to take this ne on.
Posted by samwight 2 years ago
samwight
By definition, the existence of god or of a god cannot be disproved.
Posted by The_Scapegoat_bleats 2 years ago
The_Scapegoat_bleats
By definition, God cannot be proved. What are you getting at?
Posted by Berend 2 years ago
Berend
I agree it does not prove God, I could argue otherwise, but I do not match what you are looking for.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
DwintAl-KitabTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: On a basic level, Pro's burden of proof simply was never met. He attempted several times to establish a separate burden of proof in trying to prove the existence of Allah by showing that he controls our lives on a very fundamental level, but I can buy all of his arguments and still find no proof that free will proves Allah's existence. I need to see an argument stating "free will cannot exist in a world without god," but I never do. So long as I'm given no reason to believe that a deity must be involved in our conscious or subconscious ability to direct our own course (something, I'll admit, is difficult to do without straying from free will), all I can do is vote Con.