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The usual arguments #5: God's plan

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/20/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 806 times Debate No: 52832
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
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This debate is impossible to accept. Please leave a comment if you would like to debate this.

I will argue that God's plan is evil.

God's plan- the concept of God having a plan for humanity

Round 1: acceptance
Round 2: arguments
Round 3: rebuttals
Round 4: additional argument/rebuttals and conclusion


I accept. To be honest I am excited about this one.
Debate Round No. 1


I want to thank my opponent for accepting the challange. I think this will be a fun and interesting debate.

God has a plan, obviously he want to fulfill his plan. He is omniscient, so he knows how to make his plan work. The only way to make sure his plan will indeed happen is to "fine tune" everything leading to the fulfillment of the plan. Therefore, everything is part of his plan. If you had a plan, let's say to become president then all of your actions would have that exact purpose. Everything you do would be done to help you achieve your goal.

1) This wouldn't happen if God didn't have a plan

I want to make this clear from the start. This is not about the existence of death, suffering etc, but about the reason why they exist. God clearly can't enjoy doing this to us, so he must have a reason for designing humanity like this. This reason being his plan. The answer apologists provide to questions like "Why is there starvation?", "Why do babies die?" is "It's all part of God's plan". It is then clear, that the only reason they exist is because of his plan, so if God didn't have a plan, starvation, suffering, cancer and so on wouldn't exist.

2) God's plan requires death and suffering

Of course, everyone has to die at some point, there's nothing evil with that, but God's plan requires a lot more than that. History is full of bloody conflicts. All the wars, the holocaust, slavery and everything else is part of God's plan. Keep is mind he is omnipotent, so if his only purpose was to kill people (for any reason really) he could do it in a less brutal way, unless he enjoys killing people in a brutal way (which would make him evil) or his plan REQUIRES the brutal killing of people(making his plan evil)
Look at it this way. God has the power to make every single death as "pleasant" as possible. Life doesn't have to end in agony and God has the power to change this, but he doesn't. He has the power to start or stop a war at any time, he could've made sure slavery never happened. He could've made the world a peaceful place, but he didn't.Why? The only reasonable explanation is that it's all part of God's plan.

3) God's plan requires most people to go to hell

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16
"Jesus said to him:"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." -John 14:6

Not only you have to respect a lot of rules to go to heaven, but ALL non-Christians that ever lived were condemned to eternal suffering in hell. Yes, some chose not to worship him, but MOST of them had no choice. Billions of people died before Christianity appeared, billions went to hell for not believing in something that they didn't know existed. Why would God do that? Because it's part of his plan, right? Just like cancer and starvation, billions of people burning in hell for no real reason are needed in order for his plan to succeed.
To this day, most people aren't Christians and for many it still isn't a choice.

According to the Bible, God revealed himself countless times. Then why are there still people who don't know about Christianity? Why didn't this religion enter most of Asia? Think of all the people who lived in Australia, America and Africa that died and went to hell just because they didn't know about Christianity. These are things God could fix, but he doesn't. Does he enjoy sending people to hell, or is it just part of his great plan?

*Note: Of course, some people would still go to hell, because they have free will and can chose to reject God or don't obey him, but my point if that for many it WASN'T a choice not to believe in God.

4) The outcome could never compensate

Let's say God's plan has a great ending for humanity. The greatest possible ending would still not compensate for what humanity had to endure for thousands of years. With the population rising and the number of Christians decreasing constantly, more and more people are going to hell every year, and this is clearly not going to change for a long time. All the bloody wars in history, slavery, persecutions, deaseases were all part of God's plan.
There is no possible outcome that would compensate for that amount of damage.
Also, think about the world without God'a plan. Suffering is part of his plan. Without a plan, there would be no suffering. All people would be healthy, all people would know about God and all people would have an easy death. If God didn't have a plan at all, the world would have been a better place since the beginning.
Without God's plan, the world could've been perfect and there is simply nothing that can compete with that.


I would like to argue that God's plan is for the greater good and wants the best for us, as humans and creatures that walk among the Earth.

God made many things to teach us good and bad, for example, He made starvation so that we may learn to help people and that we are fortunate. Some people are not. You may see many people ask God in the bible "Why do I have to suffer?" Even Jesus, God's loved and only son had to suffer. The reason that God made all these things is so that we can learn and have an opportunity to do good deeds, such as feed the hungry.

But I will also argue that God did not have a very clear plan, even though he is omniscient. GOD GAVE US FREEDOM. And in freedom, often you will find sin. The wars were of our own cause and God made these to show us that people will die. To teach us about sacrifice, and evil and so that we may never have another war (although that is not safe to say that we will not have WW3). If we were all perfect, what could we have to learn? Human life is interesting and extraordinary and confusing becuase we are not all the same, we are not all perfect. Evil, exists as much as God does. If God is real, so is the devil (or Satan or whatever you want to call it).

God never said that all non-Christains go to hell. God forgives those. Unless you were a mass murderer, commited suicide or support the devil or evil or whatever, God will love you. That is truly part of his plan. God loves us no matter who we are and even if we did not believe in him. There is an old Egyptian legend that says that what you believe is what will happen (mostly for the afterlife part).

God is helping us all the time. He (is that a proper way to address God?) can not do this alone because we all have free will so we need to make the world a better place. God made many things to teach us about the good and evil in life. We have happy days, and many bad ones. Cancer may be deadly but one day, we will find a cure for it. With God's help, we can do anything.
Debate Round No. 2


1) God is omnipotent. There is no need for people to starve to death. God created humans, he designed every small part of our brain, why didn't he make us all realize we are fortunate without seeing suffering? Sure, this is how our brain works: we see miserable people and we think we are so lucky because we live better, but if there is a God and he created us, he created our brains, our way of thinking and looking at the world. And so the question remains, why did he chose to let people suffer when he could have changed the way we thing.
" God made all these things is so that we can learn and have an opportunity to do good deeds, such as feed the hungry."
So your point is that without suffering we wouldn't help people. This is of course true. We couldn't help hungry people if we had no hungry people in the first place. The question is why do we need hungry people? It's probably part of God's plan. This is why his plan is so evil. It needs thousands of people to die in order for a few dozen Christians to go to heaven because of their good deeds. This is not a plan for the grater good. What about all the people that don't receive any help? Is it good to let people die in terrible pains just so a few people can earn their place in heaven by helping them?

2) God also knows everything. When he created the tree of knowledge, he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, he knew the end of humanity. When he created the world, he knew how it would end. Anything he did, he knew the effect. If he has a plan and wishes to fulfill his plan, he knows in what scenarios his plan would be indeed fulfilled. We do have freedom, but God knows how we are going to use it. Our freedom is ultimately just a tool to fulfill his plan. He knows what our actions will be, he knows if we are going to ruin his plan or not, so if he indeed has a plan, our freedom is just helping him fulfill it.

3) God never actually said anything. We consider the Bible is the word of God, and the Bible teaches that you have to be a Christian to go to heaven. This is also the Church's official position. Some Christians can have a different opinion. George Pell claims everyone can go to haven, even atheists, but this doesn't make it true from a theological perspective. The Bible and the church's official position should be considered true.



Debate Round No. 3



This confirms that his plan is evil. This means that everything bad that ever happened and will happen only happened so we can learn something from it. What exactly? It clearly didn't make us better people, it didn't bring world peace, it didn't make us care about others.
What about all the non-Christians? What can we learn from knowing that billions of people will burn in hell? Christians are already scared of hell and non-Christians don't believe in hell in the first place, so there really is nothing to learn from this.

My point was that God's plan is evil. If everything is part of his plan(including starvation, wars, cancer etc.) and everything in his plan is to teach us, then his plan is not for the greater good and causes way more damage than good, making God's plan evil.


It is NOT evil because even if you don't believe in God, he will forgive you and you won't go to hell. He wants us to learn and not make mistakes so he uses Hell as a place where we must behave so we won't go there. God gave us freedom. And we can do what we want with it. He is only trying to help us.
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Loveshismom 2 years ago
I'll use this comment for a vote

All 7 points for Pro

RFD: pro very clearly showed how God gave us freedom.
Posted by AthenaMusic10 2 years ago
I would like to debate you on this topic.
Posted by Loveshismom 2 years ago
There is nothing evil about God's plan. I can prove this.
Posted by Christian_Debater 2 years ago
I'll gladly debate you on this.
Posted by ZebramZee 2 years ago
God's Plan may certainly be evil, but it is no more or less evil than you having a plan. There is no difference.
Posted by The_Scapegoat_bleats 2 years ago
If you argue from the Bible, both OT and NT, I might consider challenging you on this.
If you argue from another than the Biblical God, I will definitely not, because then it would be too easy.
Posted by Xanxus 2 years ago
So we're arguing on whether or not God's plan is evil.
Posted by Saska 2 years ago
Can someone counter with the argument that there is no plan, therefore it can not be evil? Or is this debate going on the assumption that there is a god (I would assume it would be the Christian God)?
Posted by Valtin 2 years ago
I say that 'God's Plan' is just, justice is good, therefore it is good.
No votes have been placed for this debate.